The red graph is our test mule (base map at 8 PSI with headers)
the blue graph is same kit (base map at 10psi without headers)

There is a good 400 RPM faster spool to 8 PSI, again both cars are waste gate spring pressure, no boost controller.

The blue graph was also a final tune.

Both cars, stock motor, out of the box kit, tuned with 600cc injectors and uprev. this is as close to apples to apples that I can provide. same turbo kit, same dyno, just the difference that headers make. this is a GT3582r with a 1.03 A/R

 

Thank you very much Bryan. The 400rpm spool up difference alone tells me that there would be a flow issue with the OEM headers when being pushed past 450whp on a DD dyno.

If it makes that big of a difference (400rpm) that early on in the RPM range, just imagine what it would do at 6000rpm

 

first you said blue line was 10psi then you said 8psi

You also said blue line was base map then said it was final tune

 

Sorry blue line was tuned at 10 PSI, too many irons in the fire, oour base map is 8PSI, and that is our WG spring. obviously my left typing hand was not keeping up with my right typing hand myself

 

stock headers


from https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...es-653whp.html

stock headers


from
https://my350z.com/forum/4659637-post53.html

 

Rich, all of those dynos are just fascinating...but let's not forget the thread where this same PL kit (that was claimed to make 650whp) got only to the mid 400's on a built block:

https://my350z.com/forum/forced-indu...ke-500-hp.html

 

Sasha,

Per the OP in that thread, the car made 465whp on Hal's DD dyno with pump gas. Hal stated today in the other thread that his dyno reads about 13% lower than a DJ dyno on the same day. That taken into consideration would be ~525whp DJ on PUMP GAS.

Key differences between that car and Intense's shop G that made 654whp on DJ dyno:

• C16 race gas used on Intense dyno
• Tomei 280 duration cams on Intense G
• ProEFI engine management on Intense G
• Likely a more agressive tune on Intense's shop car than Hal would be willing to do on a customer car

So I don't think the comparison is apples to apples. In fact... in 3 years I have yet to see another built PowerLab setup outside of Intense that was very similar or was tuned for max power on C16.

 

In bold, my point exactly. It is great that people are comparing dyno charts, but let’s face it, there are many other factors at play here. Most people in the thread I linked had no idea about all the stuff you just listed, and went nuts because they though this dyno was done on pump gas.

For the record, I am not here to bash/question any kit that is out there. People will choose what works best for them, and that is great. I just know the facts, and the feedback from all the testing done recently. Not to mention logic.

 

That info may not have been as effectively communicated or posted in such a concise manner as I just stated here in this thread. But people in that thread were made aware of some of those differences between the OP's car/dyno results versus the Intense G. However, much of what was posted to point out those differences was ignored by the peanut gallery. Also, Intense said from the very beginning (long before the creation of that thread you linked) that those PowerLab dynos were done with C16 and never hid that from the community.

And Sasha... from where I sit... lately it seems in multiple posts that you have been questioning the validity of the PowerLab dynos at Intense and have been implying that some BS or dishonesty is involved. I do realize that nobody else has replicated Intense's results with the PowerLab kit maxed out and that it therefore draws skepticism from some. But then again... As I pointed out in my prior post... nobody else has replicated Intense's build with the same combination of components and tuned it ***** deep on C16.

I can tell you that I was present for a lot of the dynos back in those days. I've seen the engine bay of that widebody G dozens of times in all its forms. I saw that the G still had stock manifolds during the testing with the GT35R and GT37R. I also saw that the G only had a driver side header installed and still had the stock manifold on the passenger side when it made the 906whp dyno with the 76S turbo. I was present all day during the dyno runs with the 76S and was sitting on the trunk of the G when it made 906whp. I can assure you that the PowerLab dyno numbers are legit due to what I personally witnessed.

 

^ That being said... I'm not arguing against the advantages of using aftermarket headers. As I mentioned earlier today in the other thread, I personally can't justify investing in a built motor and then leaving stock manifolds on it. I therefore chose to have headers installed on my car to maximize the potential of my setup.

 

So if I'm installing the BP on a stock motor that I plan on turning into a built motor in the near future (next winter) will it help or hurt to install headers now????

 

RudeG, all I can say are the facts that I have gathered through the testing of my own system. Binder had a T4 .68 a/r housing when he made the 463whp. The .68 T4 is about the same as a T3 1.06 housing. I found this to be true through Precision, Garrett and actual test results that I found in other places.

Binder with that .68 housing had back pressure that was more than desire able. The more boost you push the bigger the issue gets, and making more power than that with that housing becomes a problem. This is why I may be questioning some of the dynos posted here.

Nothing personal, just going with what I know for sure. I will try to refrain from commenting on any more of these dyno numbers posted.



Run the kit with stock exhaust manifolds on a stock block. You will make more power/torque than the block can handle anyway if you wish. Once you built your engine get the headers in there, as it has to come out anyway.

 

So who sells the best (largest) headers that fit for this application?

EDIT: Once again, lots of solid info Rude and BP, thanks for sharing.

 

It never hurts to install headers when going FI. Like Sasha said though, they're not a necessity with a stock block setup.

I understand your skepticism Sasha. However, I don't feel that the issues you've seen thus far on your own kit with only one tuner involved (No slam or bash against Injected/Dynosty. Just saying that there is a lack of supporting field data from other shops, tuners, and end users at this point.) and a couple documented incidents of guys reaching the pump gas threshold with the 35R on the PL kit are enough irrefutable evidence for you or anyone else to be insinuating shenanigans on another manufacturer's/competitor's race gas dynos ...especially when nobody has replicated Intense's build or testing conditions.

Just sayin... and nothing personal either. I believe that you have a good kit and that it will do well on its own merits.

 

I am a firm believer in physics, math and numbers. No matter how you look at it, numbers don’t lie, and I know from tests/results on my kit what competition is capable of. Again, I am not trying to bash any other kit, just saying what my results were. Sure there are things that I can say but will not, out of respect for competition, and not wanting this to turn in to a drama queen gathering/kit bashing thread. Some people may not like my kit, and I am ok with that. This is why there are others out there that may better suite their needs/goals.

All I can do is make my results public and let the people decide. This I think would be a first on this forum, although Momentum seems like they are willing to share results as well . I am not talking about dyno numbers either; I am talking about back pressure, IAT’s ….and all the other important things that tell the full story. Sure, I could get a customer to do an E85 tune, make gobs of power, and say this is the best thing out there, don’t even look at other kits. That is no how it works for me, because I want my customers to know exactly what they are buying and what to expect from the kit.

I think this is key for this platform, because information is very important. It will allow others to build even better systems, and take the VQ to another level. Look at the other forums (honda is a good one) where all the information is shared, and guess what, they can really push the limits of those 4 cylinders.

 

+1!!!

 

Great thread, this is what FI section is all about.

BP: what would be the best header setup in your opinion? and what anyone else believes? Equal length cossies? I believe some true headers 2inch and equal length with nice collectors would make a real difference on a stock block setup. I'd imagine better boost control, face it the interior header material is sh*t, and even though it has an outer heat shield, it won't have the same flow and thermodynamic properties as a nice set of equal lengths. With a stock block setup, yes you will never really reach an efficiency island where the smoother flow will be a big difference, but I'd still believe it would help esp in the on off boost response and upper end of the power band.
Face it, headers that are scavenging better than stock ones to the point where you gain hp on a NA stock setup have to boost exhaust velocities post header and therefore have to increase efficiency of exhaust gasses going to the turbo.
If you are already down there, might as well. Some headers are pretty affordable. I don't think you HAVE to but, I'd believe it's worth it.

 

Of course a header would be an improvement on either a stock block or a built one. There are so many out there for people to choose from at the moment. Momentum also released a great quality equal length set of headers. It looks like they improved spool by about 400rpm, so it is a good investment for those wanting to make the system as efficient as possible.

You are righ on the fact that OEM's just don't flow well enough. Like you said if gains cab be seen on N/A builds, imagine what they would be like on built FI engines.

 

Sasha, thanx for the plug.

Our headers were dsigned to work well in an NA or FI solution, I'mnot sure if any others make that claim. Our headers are also built to take the heat of FI and as it was stated earlier, Flow + scavenging make power. Our headers are equal length, 1.75" primaries, with a merge style collector. All tig welded, back purged, 16 gauge 304 stainless. We do see imroved spool properties with our headers. Like Sasha referred on a stock motor, same turbo kit, same dyno, same same same, we saw 8 PSI 400 RPM sooner.

We have tens of thousands of miles on multiple sets of headers on turbo kits and zero failures.

 

look at the difference in fuel during spool up between red and blue graphs. The red graph is 12.0 afr @ 2200 rpm while the blue graph shows not touching 12.0afr till 4000 rpm. Im not a tuner or a guru but that to me seems like a considerable factor in spool that should be adressed when comparing the two. I dont know what it means but maybe u tuners can enlighten us.