momentum gt3794r build.
10-21-2011 | 06:48 AM
#21
But it doesn't help prevent detonation as much as people think.
Detonation is uncontrolled ignition in the combustion chamber, and methanol has a very low evaporation point. That same thermodynamic property (methanol's ability to dissipate heat easily) allows meth to evaporate quickly and rapidly cool the intake charge (which is where MOST of it's anti knock properties exist when injected). The other way Methanol helps to increase octane is by pure basic percentages, but not by much. You run 10% air volume as meth injection and you knock back your fuel amount. If meth is let's say 105 octane, and you are running 91, you have (these are random percentages, for the sake of quick a example; I don't actually know how much fuel vs meth you can run or most cars run) 90% 91 octane and 10% 105, weighted averages says it's really only 92.4 octane.
.
It DOES help detonation greatly. It's a higher octane. That's like saying using race gas doesn't help detonation. Higher octane means more resistance to detonation. I'm not sure how anyone could ever confuse higher octane for detonation prevention.
Heat of vaporization is less than water but far greater than gasoline so it does provide lower combustion chamber temps over straight pump gas. This is why people run a 50/50 water/meth combo. Water for heat absorption and meth for increased octane which prevents detonation.
10-21-2011 | 07:20 AM
#22
Methanol is 115 octane tested. You can look it up anywhere so no need to "estimate" what the ocatane is. Also, a properly set up system uses 20% methanol injection as a fuel.
It DOES help detonation greatly. It's a higher octane. That's like saying using race gas doesn't help detonation. Higher octane means more resistance to detonation. I'm not sure how anyone could ever confuse higher octane for detonation prevention.
Heat of vaporization is less than water but far greater than gasoline so it does provide lower combustion chamber temps over straight pump gas. This is why people run a 50/50 water/meth combo. Water for heat absorption and meth for increased octane which prevents detonation.
It DOES help detonation greatly. It's a higher octane. That's like saying using race gas doesn't help detonation. Higher octane means more resistance to detonation. I'm not sure how anyone could ever confuse higher octane for detonation prevention.
Heat of vaporization is less than water but far greater than gasoline so it does provide lower combustion chamber temps over straight pump gas. This is why people run a 50/50 water/meth combo. Water for heat absorption and meth for increased octane which prevents detonation.
115 octane is the rating of methanol, but not e85. e85 is roughly 100 octane.
Water is approximately 540 calories for vaporization, while methanol is only about 260. Ethanol is approximately 205. These are just neighborhood numbers.
That's BASIC physics and chemistry. I've taken enough of both to be confident that water is a stronger octane booster/knock reducer per atom than methanol. Methanol is a higher octane than gasoline, but water is better at knock suppression. I don't want to go back into atomic structures to explain that.
furthermore, people run a 50/50 mix for because it's pretty much the maximum methanol you can run without creating a flammable liquid, which is highly dangerous as you probably know. It gives the best of both worlds, but I believe that on a high boost car with a proper fuel system you are better off going raw water injection for detonation prevention. If you can force enough air in, and can give enough fuel the only thing you need to worry about is detonation. Yes you could make more power with oxygenated fuels, but this is the next best thing.
I intend to prove my theory with my build.
Last edited by Resmarted; 10-21-2011 at 07:24 AM.
10-21-2011 | 07:29 AM
#23
Guess what, I can take a quote out of context and make you look wrong too!
Wikipedia's first line on octane rating states:
"Octane rating or octane number is a standard measure of the anti-knock properties (i.e. the performance) of a motor or aviation fuel."
Go look up the relationships between MON, RON, AKI and octane.
I think you are confusing oxygenation with octane rating. Meth and ethanol both have oxygen in their molecules (all alcohols do).
I'll make my end theory clearer:
Although ethanol should make more power per psi than water injected pump-gas, I believe you should be able to make more power (with a nice big turbo) with just water injection, more so than a 50/50 mix. Again, not as efficient, but I believe (because you can run so much more boost) the limits are much higher with water injection. The thermodynamic and volumetric mathematics/simulations behind this are not something I am currently capable of doing, but hopefully by this summer I can. By that time the car will be running. That is assuming you stay within the efficiency islands of the turbo. If you go out, then more meth in the injection stream is needed.
"Octane rating or octane number is a standard measure of the anti-knock properties (i.e. the performance) of a motor or aviation fuel."
Go look up the relationships between MON, RON, AKI and octane.
I think you are confusing oxygenation with octane rating. Meth and ethanol both have oxygen in their molecules (all alcohols do).
I'll make my end theory clearer:
Although ethanol should make more power per psi than water injected pump-gas, I believe you should be able to make more power (with a nice big turbo) with just water injection, more so than a 50/50 mix. Again, not as efficient, but I believe (because you can run so much more boost) the limits are much higher with water injection. The thermodynamic and volumetric mathematics/simulations behind this are not something I am currently capable of doing, but hopefully by this summer I can. By that time the car will be running. That is assuming you stay within the efficiency islands of the turbo. If you go out, then more meth in the injection stream is needed.
Last edited by Resmarted; 10-21-2011 at 07:40 AM.
10-21-2011 | 08:33 AM
#24
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 93
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From: saltlakecity ut
Doing a one off mid mount 7175 precision with long tube headers and twin 38mm wastegates. .96 A/R
I chose my turbo over a billet 67 because I felt it would run out of steam on a 6 cylinder, and then opted for a 75 hotside (vs the traditional 7168) for nearly the same reason. And to boot the .96 vs the smaller .84 (i think its .84...). I'm hoping I can afford cams and valvesprings NOW before everything's coming together... That way I can rev out and make more power.
Get ready for quite the reading. I'm pretty tired as it's 3:30am, but I kinda been itching to write out all I know about this fuel deal. I'll go over it tomorrow some time and edit for errors, I'm sure I made a few but you guys can point them out ahead of time.
________________________________________________________
+1 on going for meth injection. A 340 is plenty of pump, as long as you're not going with e85. I personally don't really agree with ethanol as a fuel ATM, mainly because it's all made from Corn, and I disagree with the economic effects of using food as fuel... Also my 'gut' skeptical about the combustion chamber effects of Ethanol although I've yet to hear anything bad about ethanol and engine internals. I have heard/seen tons of bad stuff about direct injection (crapping up intake manifolds on bmws etc), but that's a different story. I've heard people quote ethanol to be about 105 octane, and some people quote it as low as 94 octane. From a very smart professor I heard that it should be about 99 octane or 100 (he stated that it could be rated at the 105 level when tested/compared in terms of gasoline, but when tested/compared in terms of methanol its just about 100, idk the specifics behind this so don't ask).
The thing about meth injection is that meth can help you 'make' more power than just straight gasoline, because you are adding fuel (methanol is fuel, just of a lower btu/higher octane). But it doesn't help prevent detonation as much as people think.
Detonation is uncontrolled ignition in the combustion chamber, and methanol has a very low evaporation point. That same thermodynamic property (methanol's ability to dissipate heat easily) allows meth to evaporate quickly and rapidly cool the intake charge (which is where MOST of it's anti knock properties exist when injected). The other way Methanol helps to increase octane is by pure basic percentages, but not by much. You run 10% air volume as meth injection and you knock back your fuel amount. If meth is let's say 105 octane, and you are running 91, you have (these are random percentages, for the sake of quick a example; I don't actually know how much fuel vs meth you can run or most cars run) 90% 91 octane and 10% 105, weighted averages says it's really only 92.4 octane.
Water on the other hand is very good at preventing detonation because it has a higher threshold for evaporation, one that likely won't be seen until the combustion chamber where it squelches knock. It also has a great added benefit of steam cleaning your head and pistons (leading to longer engine life provided that you maintain everything etc). But it doesn't do nearly as much for lowering AIT.
Part of the reason meth/water injection got so popular was because stock cars or lightly modded cars could keep basic fuel systems and add a bit more fuel with the meth and get a bit more detonation protection with the water. That would allow them to crank up the boost and go outside of efficiency islands (for oem or whatever turbos), still have much improved AITs (compared to running that boost level without meth to soak up excess turbo heat), and have slightly better octane.
Here's where things get interesting.
Traditional 'race gas' has a HIGH octane. These are your basic leaded fuels. Lead was added, in the past to our gas, to raise the specific heat of the gasoline, which allows for increased combustion temps without detonation. I'm fairly sure it's still used in some types of race fuel (not sure which ones, have 0 first hand experience with race gas in general so...) but is illegal on the street (for good reason, all that lead gets put straight into our atmosphere and then we breathe that sh*t. lead is a pretty strong carcinogen so that's all bad). But Modern race gas has a high octane (or slow burning rate) with oxygenation (they have Oxygen atoms in the fuel's chemical structure). In other words they can 'burn' more completely per drop. C-16, Q-16 and VP Import I believe are all oxygenated. This lets you make more power.
So, with water injection you can theoretically get a very strong octane rating (or resistance to detonation) but not that much of a power boost like you would with race gas. With meth you can get that 'power boost' (it's a little more complicated than just more meth, more power) but not as much detonation suppression as water.
I personally believe on a street california car, water injection is the way to go and just 'crank up the boost.' I'll be trying this out when my car is done to see what works best. I don't have e85 in my area so it never really came into the discussion. If you are going to want an e85 tune you will need a big fuel system. Thing is distilled water is everywhere and costs like what, a buck a gallon? And meth you can find relatively easily too. A decent meth kit can cost about 400$, maybe 300$ if you want a super basic boost dependent kit, or over 900$ if you want a real clever multi nozzle, multi stage kit.
Ultimately, talk to your tuner. See if they are more comfortable with injection systems, or e85. Both have been proven to work, but it's wisest to go with what your tuner works best with.
Again, probably a few errors in here, feel free to correct me. I'm about spreading the right ish, not the wrong ish.
I chose my turbo over a billet 67 because I felt it would run out of steam on a 6 cylinder, and then opted for a 75 hotside (vs the traditional 7168) for nearly the same reason. And to boot the .96 vs the smaller .84 (i think its .84...). I'm hoping I can afford cams and valvesprings NOW before everything's coming together... That way I can rev out and make more power.
Get ready for quite the reading. I'm pretty tired as it's 3:30am, but I kinda been itching to write out all I know about this fuel deal. I'll go over it tomorrow some time and edit for errors, I'm sure I made a few but you guys can point them out ahead of time.
________________________________________________________
+1 on going for meth injection. A 340 is plenty of pump, as long as you're not going with e85. I personally don't really agree with ethanol as a fuel ATM, mainly because it's all made from Corn, and I disagree with the economic effects of using food as fuel... Also my 'gut' skeptical about the combustion chamber effects of Ethanol although I've yet to hear anything bad about ethanol and engine internals. I have heard/seen tons of bad stuff about direct injection (crapping up intake manifolds on bmws etc), but that's a different story. I've heard people quote ethanol to be about 105 octane, and some people quote it as low as 94 octane. From a very smart professor I heard that it should be about 99 octane or 100 (he stated that it could be rated at the 105 level when tested/compared in terms of gasoline, but when tested/compared in terms of methanol its just about 100, idk the specifics behind this so don't ask).
The thing about meth injection is that meth can help you 'make' more power than just straight gasoline, because you are adding fuel (methanol is fuel, just of a lower btu/higher octane). But it doesn't help prevent detonation as much as people think.
Detonation is uncontrolled ignition in the combustion chamber, and methanol has a very low evaporation point. That same thermodynamic property (methanol's ability to dissipate heat easily) allows meth to evaporate quickly and rapidly cool the intake charge (which is where MOST of it's anti knock properties exist when injected). The other way Methanol helps to increase octane is by pure basic percentages, but not by much. You run 10% air volume as meth injection and you knock back your fuel amount. If meth is let's say 105 octane, and you are running 91, you have (these are random percentages, for the sake of quick a example; I don't actually know how much fuel vs meth you can run or most cars run) 90% 91 octane and 10% 105, weighted averages says it's really only 92.4 octane.
Water on the other hand is very good at preventing detonation because it has a higher threshold for evaporation, one that likely won't be seen until the combustion chamber where it squelches knock. It also has a great added benefit of steam cleaning your head and pistons (leading to longer engine life provided that you maintain everything etc). But it doesn't do nearly as much for lowering AIT.
Part of the reason meth/water injection got so popular was because stock cars or lightly modded cars could keep basic fuel systems and add a bit more fuel with the meth and get a bit more detonation protection with the water. That would allow them to crank up the boost and go outside of efficiency islands (for oem or whatever turbos), still have much improved AITs (compared to running that boost level without meth to soak up excess turbo heat), and have slightly better octane.
Here's where things get interesting.
Traditional 'race gas' has a HIGH octane. These are your basic leaded fuels. Lead was added, in the past to our gas, to raise the specific heat of the gasoline, which allows for increased combustion temps without detonation. I'm fairly sure it's still used in some types of race fuel (not sure which ones, have 0 first hand experience with race gas in general so...) but is illegal on the street (for good reason, all that lead gets put straight into our atmosphere and then we breathe that sh*t. lead is a pretty strong carcinogen so that's all bad). But Modern race gas has a high octane (or slow burning rate) with oxygenation (they have Oxygen atoms in the fuel's chemical structure). In other words they can 'burn' more completely per drop. C-16, Q-16 and VP Import I believe are all oxygenated. This lets you make more power.
So, with water injection you can theoretically get a very strong octane rating (or resistance to detonation) but not that much of a power boost like you would with race gas. With meth you can get that 'power boost' (it's a little more complicated than just more meth, more power) but not as much detonation suppression as water.
I personally believe on a street california car, water injection is the way to go and just 'crank up the boost.' I'll be trying this out when my car is done to see what works best. I don't have e85 in my area so it never really came into the discussion. If you are going to want an e85 tune you will need a big fuel system. Thing is distilled water is everywhere and costs like what, a buck a gallon? And meth you can find relatively easily too. A decent meth kit can cost about 400$, maybe 300$ if you want a super basic boost dependent kit, or over 900$ if you want a real clever multi nozzle, multi stage kit.
Ultimately, talk to your tuner. See if they are more comfortable with injection systems, or e85. Both have been proven to work, but it's wisest to go with what your tuner works best with.
Again, probably a few errors in here, feel free to correct me. I'm about spreading the right ish, not the wrong ish.
Method sounds more interesting now, besides there isn't a lot of people selling corn here yet. (I live in slc Utah)
Reassembled starts Monday and hopefully completed by Friday.
I'll post results when its done.
Ps. I forgot to list jwt c2 cams in my build list.
10-21-2011 | 12:18 PM
#25
600whp dynojet
I think he should be able to hit ~~~600whp with 91 oct/meth kit with this setup without any problems. I was able to make ~525whp on IP's dyno and ~595 whp on an local dynojet with my setup. I have a Powerlab with a single gt35 with 1.06 AR, Headers, jwt s7 cams, IP stage 1 block, cjm 2 return fuel on 92 oct and AEM Meth/H2O kit set at ~85%/15% gas/meth mix.
10-21-2011 | 09:57 PM
#26
I'm on my.mobile but ill reply tomorrow.
you missed the boat big time if u think water has an octane rating. you do know that "octane" is a fuel composed of 10 carbons that the rating is classified. the rating assesses how a fuel rates against octane on the scale. water isn't a combustable fuel so how can it even have an octane rating? at this point I think you are just making stuff up. water cools the combustion chamber by absorbing energy. it does not alter the octane rating at all.
I have a degree in chemistry with a minor in physics so please don't try to boast about you "studying" chemistry to try to put merit to false statements.
you missed the boat big time if u think water has an octane rating. you do know that "octane" is a fuel composed of 10 carbons that the rating is classified. the rating assesses how a fuel rates against octane on the scale. water isn't a combustable fuel so how can it even have an octane rating? at this point I think you are just making stuff up. water cools the combustion chamber by absorbing energy. it does not alter the octane rating at all.
I have a degree in chemistry with a minor in physics so please don't try to boast about you "studying" chemistry to try to put merit to false statements.
10-22-2011 | 03:03 AM
#27
I'm on my.mobile but ill reply tomorrow.
you missed the boat big time if u think water has an octane rating. you do know that "octane" is a fuel composed of 10 carbons that the rating is classified. the rating assesses how a fuel rates against octane on the scale. water isn't a combustable fuel so how can it even have an octane rating? at this point I think you are just making stuff up. water cools the combustion chamber by absorbing energy. it does not alter the octane rating at all.
I have a degree in chemistry with a minor in physics so please don't try to boast about you "studying" chemistry to try to put merit to false statements.
you missed the boat big time if u think water has an octane rating. you do know that "octane" is a fuel composed of 10 carbons that the rating is classified. the rating assesses how a fuel rates against octane on the scale. water isn't a combustable fuel so how can it even have an octane rating? at this point I think you are just making stuff up. water cools the combustion chamber by absorbing energy. it does not alter the octane rating at all.
I have a degree in chemistry with a minor in physics so please don't try to boast about you "studying" chemistry to try to put merit to false statements.
Next I'm willing to bet my 'studying' is much more advanced than you imagine. This is all (relatively) extremely basic chemistry stuff I learned first off (mainly review) on during my first year at actual school.
I'm not going to continue this argument with you. I start enough forum arguments that the mods don't like, I'm not going to continue another one with you too AND thread jack. Really, just not worth it to me. That's it. Everything I said makes sense, and as a whole is a pretty damn good snapshot for people who don't know anything about meth injection, ethanol, and race fuels. Cheers binder. keep on doing whatever the hell you are trying to do
.
10-22-2011 | 08:56 AM
#28
I think he should be able to hit ~~~600whp with 91 oct/meth kit with this setup without any problems. I was able to make ~525whp on IP's dyno and ~595 whp on an local dynojet with my setup. I have a Powerlab with a single gt35 with 1.06 AR, Headers, jwt s7 cams, IP stage 1 block, cjm 2 return fuel on 92 oct and AEM Meth/H2O kit set at ~85%/15% gas/meth mix.
The OP was wanting to hit 600hp on 91 pump alone. That's a tough stretch. With the meth/h20 injection i'm sure it will though.
10-22-2011 | 09:03 AM
#29
either my phone's browser was messed up or the posted was edited but it said right after "e85 is 100 octane" it also said "h2o is roughly 100 octane". It's not there now and if it wasn't then i misspoke.
Water doesn't alter octane. I would agree that it might make a fuel more effective at detonation prevention so if you want to skew that into saying "alters octane" then ya....but it's a stretch.
Water absorbs energy due to it's high heat of vaporization which is measured in Joules/gC*. So yes, it will cool the combustion which would reduce the chances of detonation and preignition. I never said it wouldn't. I said it won't raise octane. Also, we measure the energy used to vaporize water in Joules classically. I guess you can convert it to Calories but it's not needed.
methanol: add octane
h2o: absorb heat energy
anyways, the whole point of why we were suggesting meth injection is because he's a single pump therefore e85 is out of the question:
91pump: probably won't reach 600hp
pump + meth: recommended to reach his goals
e85: reach goals but he's on single pump so not applicable.
Water doesn't alter octane. I would agree that it might make a fuel more effective at detonation prevention so if you want to skew that into saying "alters octane" then ya....but it's a stretch.
Water absorbs energy due to it's high heat of vaporization which is measured in Joules/gC*. So yes, it will cool the combustion which would reduce the chances of detonation and preignition. I never said it wouldn't. I said it won't raise octane. Also, we measure the energy used to vaporize water in Joules classically. I guess you can convert it to Calories but it's not needed.
methanol: add octane
h2o: absorb heat energy
anyways, the whole point of why we were suggesting meth injection is because he's a single pump therefore e85 is out of the question:
91pump: probably won't reach 600hp
pump + meth: recommended to reach his goals
e85: reach goals but he's on single pump so not applicable.
11-02-2011 | 10:38 AM
#32
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From: saltlakecity ut
I'm hoping for high 500's on the 91oct tune.
I have no idea what it will do on c16,we will just have to see.
11-03-2011 | 06:06 PM
#34
11-04-2011 | 07:36 AM
#39
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From: saltlakecity ut
11-04-2011 | 07:51 AM
#40
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Joined: Dec 2010
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From: saltlakecity ut
Lack of clearance for downpipe and ac line had to be relocated.
The tube that is designed to recirculate the wastegate is off by .75 to 1" from the wastegate itself.
This is a big problem as there is little to no room for adjustment.
The passenger side header primary connecting tube that crosses over to the drivers side piping had to have 1 inch of slip-joint cut out to get it to fit.
The tube that is designed to recirculate the wastegate is off by .75 to 1" from the wastegate itself.
This is a big problem as there is little to no room for adjustment.
The passenger side header primary connecting tube that crosses over to the drivers side piping had to have 1 inch of slip-joint cut out to get it to fit.