Procharger & Another Blown Engine
12-22-2003, 07:59 PM
#61
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ps..Please Email the uncensored version of that pic to daking350z@optonline.net...
................No really.....Im not kidding.....Please do....
................No really.....Im not kidding.....Please do....
12-22-2003, 08:08 PM
#63
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well you cant THROW out the stock ECU..You will run into all kinds of problems....But I will put you to the very TOP of the waiting list..For a VERY SPECIAL price of course...
Now send those pics!!!Seriously send em send em send em...
Now send those pics!!!Seriously send em send em send em...
12-22-2003, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE]"ps..Please Email the uncensored version of that pic to daking350z@optonline.net... ................No really.....Im not kidding.....Please do...."[/QUOTE]
ibid to javoyola@prtc.net
ibid to javoyola@prtc.net
12-22-2003, 09:41 PM
#65
Gentlemen, and lady:
I am running an ATI on my G35 coupe with 7psi, and have three thousand miles on it with no problems. However, I have been very careful with every mod to the "breathing" on it since then. It is an interesting dance between caution and aggressiveness, but here is what I have found.
1. At 2,000 miles put the Procharger on. First mod to the engine. Why? Because one may expect an aftermarket "bolt on" company to take a stock car and put on their equipment only, without consideration of other combinations. Immediately had it dyno tuned, and it was running just a little lean. Adjusted the A/F to about 11.5 to 1. Ran as advertised. Interestingly, little change in exhaust note, modest whistle at low rpms from sc unit.
2. At 3,000 miles trouble free, put on Borla headers and catback exhaust. Immediately had it dyno tuned, and it was running lean again. Adjusted the A/F to about 11.5 to 1. (No hp gain from above mods, and a torque loss at the rw.) Interestingly, little change in exhaust note, perhaps slightly deeper.
3. At 4,000 miles trouble free, put on the Random Technology cats. Had it tuned five days later. Did not run more than 4,000rpm in the interim. It was running very lean based on dyno tune, and adjusted to 11.4. at 5500rpm in third gear. Plot on dyno showed 11.8 at 6000 rpm, so trending to lean as rpm climbed. Interestingly, exhaust note deepened considerably, and classic "growl" of headers was released. (dyno showed 346.6 rwhp in third gear and 306 lbft torque/picked up the "missing hp" from the header and catback mods).
4. Left dyno tuner and went straight to Technosquare with dyno charts and A/F plot. Sat down with techs and worked out customized parameters of reflash. Retarded timing two degrees on high end, left midrange same. Tickled "fly by wire" and cam timing a bit, took off speed limiter and pushed rev limiter to 7100. Took it out for a diagnostic run and ran to 7100...no problem. Pulled like a train and smoothed out curve at the high end where you often get a "dip" before redline. Got another approx 20hp+ in the process.
5. At 5,000 miles trouble free, putting in Apexi gauges for Boost, EGT and Fuel Pressure and Greddy gauge for F/A mix. After reading this thread will probably put in J&S just for more security.
This engine for whatever reason seems to turn to the lean side when you mess with the breathing, on intake and exhale. Is it mechanical or is it the ECU? While both are involved, my sniff says the ECU is reacting to the mods, possibly the 02 sensor with a change in the exhaust flows and temps, but I don't know. Just that every single time anything is done to the engine, if you run FI, you are wise to get it dyno tuned and mapped to make sure you are not running too close to the edge. A little sacrifice in performance and gas mileage, but less walking home.
Best regards.
I am running an ATI on my G35 coupe with 7psi, and have three thousand miles on it with no problems. However, I have been very careful with every mod to the "breathing" on it since then. It is an interesting dance between caution and aggressiveness, but here is what I have found.
1. At 2,000 miles put the Procharger on. First mod to the engine. Why? Because one may expect an aftermarket "bolt on" company to take a stock car and put on their equipment only, without consideration of other combinations. Immediately had it dyno tuned, and it was running just a little lean. Adjusted the A/F to about 11.5 to 1. Ran as advertised. Interestingly, little change in exhaust note, modest whistle at low rpms from sc unit.
2. At 3,000 miles trouble free, put on Borla headers and catback exhaust. Immediately had it dyno tuned, and it was running lean again. Adjusted the A/F to about 11.5 to 1. (No hp gain from above mods, and a torque loss at the rw.) Interestingly, little change in exhaust note, perhaps slightly deeper.
3. At 4,000 miles trouble free, put on the Random Technology cats. Had it tuned five days later. Did not run more than 4,000rpm in the interim. It was running very lean based on dyno tune, and adjusted to 11.4. at 5500rpm in third gear. Plot on dyno showed 11.8 at 6000 rpm, so trending to lean as rpm climbed. Interestingly, exhaust note deepened considerably, and classic "growl" of headers was released. (dyno showed 346.6 rwhp in third gear and 306 lbft torque/picked up the "missing hp" from the header and catback mods).
4. Left dyno tuner and went straight to Technosquare with dyno charts and A/F plot. Sat down with techs and worked out customized parameters of reflash. Retarded timing two degrees on high end, left midrange same. Tickled "fly by wire" and cam timing a bit, took off speed limiter and pushed rev limiter to 7100. Took it out for a diagnostic run and ran to 7100...no problem. Pulled like a train and smoothed out curve at the high end where you often get a "dip" before redline. Got another approx 20hp+ in the process.
5. At 5,000 miles trouble free, putting in Apexi gauges for Boost, EGT and Fuel Pressure and Greddy gauge for F/A mix. After reading this thread will probably put in J&S just for more security.
This engine for whatever reason seems to turn to the lean side when you mess with the breathing, on intake and exhale. Is it mechanical or is it the ECU? While both are involved, my sniff says the ECU is reacting to the mods, possibly the 02 sensor with a change in the exhaust flows and temps, but I don't know. Just that every single time anything is done to the engine, if you run FI, you are wise to get it dyno tuned and mapped to make sure you are not running too close to the edge. A little sacrifice in performance and gas mileage, but less walking home.
Best regards.
12-23-2003, 03:53 PM
#67
Originally posted by Enron Exec
Wow Eagle1, your first post on this forum and i have to say absolutely appreciated.
Wow Eagle1, your first post on this forum and i have to say absolutely appreciated.
This really is a delicate step by step situation. One tries to think through the implications, but there is a zone or cloud of the unknown that is associated with being a leading/bleeding edge.
It could be just peachy. It could be like the leaper passing the twentieth floor and commenting....well...so far so good.
Every one running some form of FI on this particular engine/ECU, and it does not matter whether it is turbo, roots/eaton external compression supercharger(Stillen), centrifugal internal compression supercharger(ATI/Vortech), or a lysholm twin screw, is going to run head on into this issue. We need to share info and facts to keep the collateral damage and injuries down as best we can. I do not think that the aftermarket units are the problem. I think it is the mating or interface of them to the engine with either a propensity to breathe lean mechanically when we start pushing more air through the "pump"...or electronically with respect to the ECU and its response to doing so. Maybe it is something else altogether, although I think those two characters should be put under the lineup spotlights and closely examined.
But let us now have some opinions from real tech types that have this info, matched up with Robin's experience, and see what they can teach us all. Weigh in guys and gals, what do you think is going on here, and why?
12-23-2003, 04:15 PM
#70
Originally posted by Eagle1
But let us now have some opinions from real tech types that have this info, matched up with Robin's experience, and see what they can teach us all. Weigh in guys and gals, what do you think is going on here, and why?
But let us now have some opinions from real tech types that have this info, matched up with Robin's experience, and see what they can teach us all. Weigh in guys and gals, what do you think is going on here, and why?
In general, its tuning...fuel, timing, or both. I think a lot of these cars are getting tuned too lean to begin with. Or not tuned at all, in which case you don't know what you have. Even with good a/f ratios, the stock timing can be too much if not addressed. This is especially true if mods beyond the stock kit are installed.
12-23-2003, 04:50 PM
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Here are the specs.....
2004 G35 6MT - 1200 mils on it, Procharger installed at 400 miles.
19" Iforged Aero's, 245/35 & 285/35
Nismo Sway Bars
Eibach Springs
More Pertinent to the issue at hand:
Procharger w/ 7psi, but there is a hole cut in the radiator frame for more air flow, this may be particular only the the G35 not the 350 though. Borla Headers, Test Pipes, Borla Mufflers.
Tuned to 12:1 a/f at the time of install. Was 90 degrees and humid at the time. No gauges installed, still working on a custom trim panel to install three gauges. Installed the Crawford Plenum the day of the mishap, and had the J&S box sitting on the passenger side floor board, waiting to be installed. Like I said it was cold and dry at least for Miami the night it happened.
The rest is history as you know the results of that night.
The next motor will be build as fast as parts can be manufactured by the various manufacturers out there. There WILL be a new ECU or piggyback sys to run the new motor properly.
Robin
2004 G35 6MT - 1200 mils on it, Procharger installed at 400 miles.
19" Iforged Aero's, 245/35 & 285/35
Nismo Sway Bars
Eibach Springs
More Pertinent to the issue at hand:
Procharger w/ 7psi, but there is a hole cut in the radiator frame for more air flow, this may be particular only the the G35 not the 350 though. Borla Headers, Test Pipes, Borla Mufflers.
Tuned to 12:1 a/f at the time of install. Was 90 degrees and humid at the time. No gauges installed, still working on a custom trim panel to install three gauges. Installed the Crawford Plenum the day of the mishap, and had the J&S box sitting on the passenger side floor board, waiting to be installed. Like I said it was cold and dry at least for Miami the night it happened.
The rest is history as you know the results of that night.
The next motor will be build as fast as parts can be manufactured by the various manufacturers out there. There WILL be a new ECU or piggyback sys to run the new motor properly.
Robin
12-23-2003, 05:26 PM
#72
It really sounds like it was a combination of things that lead to the demise of your engine. I hope it goes better the second time around...it should since you're taking the necessary precautions. Timing control is key, especially with the additional mods you're running. Good luck with it 
on edit: What kind of dyno was it tuned on? At a 12:1 a/f ratio on the dyno, it may end up higher (leaner) on the road...this is especially true with inertia dynos (dynojet). I think anything over 12 is pushing it with this setup on the z.
on edit: What kind of dyno was it tuned on? At a 12:1 a/f ratio on the dyno, it may end up higher (leaner) on the road...this is especially true with inertia dynos (dynojet). I think anything over 12 is pushing it with this setup on the z.
Last edited by GaryK; 12-23-2003 at 05:31 PM.
12-24-2003, 03:33 AM
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Hi Robin, similar experience I had. I can tell you, you went lean. You may have been borderline at 12.1 at the sniffer but the Crawford tooh you past 12.5 w/o an EGT and boom like my first engine did.
That is why I am not boosting again with a Crawford until I go back to TS the first week of January to get me back to 11:5.
Eagle, you just said everything I am doing lol. Yes, we have similar setups and yes it works. I would like to think this is my last reflash so the lesson is get it all on and flashed and stop messing with it lol
Good post.
That is why I am not boosting again with a Crawford until I go back to TS the first week of January to get me back to 11:5.
Eagle, you just said everything I am doing lol. Yes, we have similar setups and yes it works. I would like to think this is my last reflash so the lesson is get it all on and flashed and stop messing with it lol
Good post.
12-24-2003, 05:37 AM
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Originally posted by Eagle1
Gentlemen, and lady:
I am running an ATI on my G35 coupe with 7psi, and have three thousand miles on it with no problems. However, I have been very careful with every mod to the "breathing" on it since then. It is an interesting dance between caution and aggressiveness, but here is what I have found.
1. At 2,000 miles put the Procharger on. First mod to the engine. Why? Because one may expect an aftermarket "bolt on" company to take a stock car and put on their equipment only, without consideration of other combinations. Immediately had it dyno tuned, and it was running just a little lean. Adjusted the A/F to about 11.5 to 1. Ran as advertised. Interestingly, little change in exhaust note, modest whistle at low rpms from sc unit.
2. At 3,000 miles trouble free, put on Borla headers and catback exhaust. Immediately had it dyno tuned, and it was running lean again. Adjusted the A/F to about 11.5 to 1. (No hp gain from above mods, and a torque loss at the rw.) Interestingly, little change in exhaust note, perhaps slightly deeper.
3. At 4,000 miles trouble free, put on the Random Technology cats. Had it tuned five days later. Did not run more than 4,000rpm in the interim. It was running very lean based on dyno tune, and adjusted to 11.4. at 5500rpm in third gear. Plot on dyno showed 11.8 at 6000 rpm, so trending to lean as rpm climbed. Interestingly, exhaust note deepened considerably, and classic "growl" of headers was released. (dyno showed 346.6 rwhp in third gear and 306 lbft torque/picked up the "missing hp" from the header and catback mods).
4. Left dyno tuner and went straight to Technosquare with dyno charts and A/F plot. Sat down with techs and worked out customized parameters of reflash. Retarded timing two degrees on high end, left midrange same. Tickled "fly by wire" and cam timing a bit, took off speed limiter and pushed rev limiter to 7100. Took it out for a diagnostic run and ran to 7100...no problem. Pulled like a train and smoothed out curve at the high end where you often get a "dip" before redline. Got another approx 20hp+ in the process.
5. At 5,000 miles trouble free, putting in Apexi gauges for Boost, EGT and Fuel Pressure and Greddy gauge for F/A mix. After reading this thread will probably put in J&S just for more security.
This engine for whatever reason seems to turn to the lean side when you mess with the breathing, on intake and exhale. Is it mechanical or is it the ECU? While both are involved, my sniff says the ECU is reacting to the mods, possibly the 02 sensor with a change in the exhaust flows and temps, but I don't know. Just that every single time anything is done to the engine, if you run FI, you are wise to get it dyno tuned and mapped to make sure you are not running too close to the edge. A little sacrifice in performance and gas mileage, but less walking home.
Best regards.
Gentlemen, and lady:
I am running an ATI on my G35 coupe with 7psi, and have three thousand miles on it with no problems. However, I have been very careful with every mod to the "breathing" on it since then. It is an interesting dance between caution and aggressiveness, but here is what I have found.
1. At 2,000 miles put the Procharger on. First mod to the engine. Why? Because one may expect an aftermarket "bolt on" company to take a stock car and put on their equipment only, without consideration of other combinations. Immediately had it dyno tuned, and it was running just a little lean. Adjusted the A/F to about 11.5 to 1. Ran as advertised. Interestingly, little change in exhaust note, modest whistle at low rpms from sc unit.
2. At 3,000 miles trouble free, put on Borla headers and catback exhaust. Immediately had it dyno tuned, and it was running lean again. Adjusted the A/F to about 11.5 to 1. (No hp gain from above mods, and a torque loss at the rw.) Interestingly, little change in exhaust note, perhaps slightly deeper.
3. At 4,000 miles trouble free, put on the Random Technology cats. Had it tuned five days later. Did not run more than 4,000rpm in the interim. It was running very lean based on dyno tune, and adjusted to 11.4. at 5500rpm in third gear. Plot on dyno showed 11.8 at 6000 rpm, so trending to lean as rpm climbed. Interestingly, exhaust note deepened considerably, and classic "growl" of headers was released. (dyno showed 346.6 rwhp in third gear and 306 lbft torque/picked up the "missing hp" from the header and catback mods).
4. Left dyno tuner and went straight to Technosquare with dyno charts and A/F plot. Sat down with techs and worked out customized parameters of reflash. Retarded timing two degrees on high end, left midrange same. Tickled "fly by wire" and cam timing a bit, took off speed limiter and pushed rev limiter to 7100. Took it out for a diagnostic run and ran to 7100...no problem. Pulled like a train and smoothed out curve at the high end where you often get a "dip" before redline. Got another approx 20hp+ in the process.
5. At 5,000 miles trouble free, putting in Apexi gauges for Boost, EGT and Fuel Pressure and Greddy gauge for F/A mix. After reading this thread will probably put in J&S just for more security.
This engine for whatever reason seems to turn to the lean side when you mess with the breathing, on intake and exhale. Is it mechanical or is it the ECU? While both are involved, my sniff says the ECU is reacting to the mods, possibly the 02 sensor with a change in the exhaust flows and temps, but I don't know. Just that every single time anything is done to the engine, if you run FI, you are wise to get it dyno tuned and mapped to make sure you are not running too close to the edge. A little sacrifice in performance and gas mileage, but less walking home.
Best regards.
This guy is very smart and has a well thought-out plan. He recoginizes the need for tuning.
Congrats!
12-24-2003, 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by abogada001
Tuned to 12:1 a/f at the time of install. Was 90 degrees and humid at the time. No gauges installed, still working on a custom trim panel to install three gauges. Installed the Crawford Plenum the day of the mishap, and had the J&S box sitting on the passenger side floor board, waiting to be installed. Like I said it was cold and dry at least for Miami the night it happened.
Robin
Tuned to 12:1 a/f at the time of install. Was 90 degrees and humid at the time. No gauges installed, still working on a custom trim panel to install three gauges. Installed the Crawford Plenum the day of the mishap, and had the J&S box sitting on the passenger side floor board, waiting to be installed. Like I said it was cold and dry at least for Miami the night it happened.
Robin
Check with the dyno operator and make sure what the variance is for their dyno.
I would NEVER, EVER run FI without a Boost gauge and Fuel Pressure guage going in first. Bad juju.
Good luck on your second build and if you run FI, the guages are a must!
