GaryK

Ok, I’m through with trying to help people here. It only results in useless arguments any more, so I’m stepping down. I don’t even normally bother with posting much on message boards…I have too much to get done in the garage anyway. But, I have tried to put some useful info out there since there isn’t that much here in the 350z community yet. On other message boards I visit, there are tons of experienced people to help, so I tend to just lurk mostly. Before I go into lurk mode, I want to say a few things. Respond how ever you like, but I’m done.

Plain and simple, a lot of people here have/had no business putting the ATI kit on their car. It really seems that there are many folks with unrealistic expectations from a supercharger kit. Just because it’s a kit does not mean you can bolt it on and never have problems. Converting a naturally aspirated car to any form of forced induction is not a trivial matter. Even the most well tested kit can have problems, and most of the problems stem from characteristics particular to the car it is installed on. So many things can have an effect, to test all possible scenarios, even assuming a completely stock car, is not realistic.

This is not meant as a slam in any way, but some people here obviously don’t know much about forced induction, or even performance mods in general. Boiled down to the simplest terms, you have two choices when modifying your car. You can research, learn, and understand the effects and risks involved with a modification to your car, then take a logical approach to doing so. Or, you can simply push that all aside and spend obscene amounts of money until you reach your goal. I can understand that the technical details are potentially very boring and of no interest to some people, and that is not a bad thing. But, sadly enough, the rule of thumb is “buyer beware”, you have to accept the fact that you could get into something you didn’t bargain for. This is especially true when you’re dealing with something so new as forced induction on the 350z. If you can’t afford to deal with the worst possibilities, you probably shouldn’t jump in without really knowing something about what you’re doing.

Is ATI perfect? No, hell no. As a company, no, and as a “complete bolt on kit” for the 350z, no. Is ATI to blame for all the supposed problems we keep hearing about? NO, they are not. We keep seeing people quick to point at ATI for problems with their car, yet they haven’t even found out what exactly the problem is. And in some cases, its obvious to anyone looking at the details that the problem was not ATI’s fault. I’m not going into detail here because I do not want to single anybody out or make them feel like I’m attacking them. There are only a couple out there that have any reason to blame ATI, based purely on what I presently know. The majority that have had problems have done something that is completely out of ATI’s control…additional mods and tuning issues in particular.

For the record, I think the ATI kit is pretty damn nice. Like others, I can see some things I personally would have done differently. But its mostly trivial things. I do think timing control is a very wise addition, and this goes for any forced induction setup. Personally, I planned on adding this before I ever placed the order for the ATI kit because I knew that without it, detonation would be more likely to occur. I believe that in the testing ATI did, they did not have problems with detonation due to the timing. Could they have done more testing? Sure… I experience exactly what ATI has all the time as part of an engineering department. You can never do too much testing. When pushing to release a product to market, this is one of the things you have to balance regarding risk versus reward. In my eyes, the percentage of ATI kits that have problems when installed and tuned per their recommendation is very small, like 1%. This is just my opinion, so guys don’t rip on me too much. I'm not saying that it won't be proven otherwise down the road, but right now that is my take on it. Either way, you need timing control to be really safe, in addition to proper installation and fuel tuning. There are a few options for timing control now, more coming, and they all have their merits.

There are a few people here that know what they’re talking about. The funny thing is, I’ve seen every one of them get ripped for speaking the truth, and those doing the ripping don’t know what they’re talking about. I guess when the answer isn’t what someone wanted to hear, they feel like they should respond with a smartass remark or try to make that person look bad in some way. I’m not pissed, if I was I would have already stopped posting…but I am a little irritated. Not to single anyone out, but it was said that I was pissed in one thread and that I do my best work then. Well, like I said I’m not pissed, and I haven’t been pissed. But yes, when someone doesn’t seem to listen to what I say in simple terms, I will tend to get technical and back up what I said to begin with. Which leads to why I’m irritated…even after bringing the tech, some people want to continue with the ********. And in some cases I’m ripped on for being technical, so it becomes a lose-lose situation usually.

I don’t lay the blame completely on others, because I know I can be a big smartass when provoked. I also don’t think I’m always right, or that my opinion is the only one that matters. A lot of my posts are centered around simply correcting someone’s misunderstanding about something in particular, which apparently comes across as me being that way. I’m really open minded, and always try to look at all the possibilities regarding a particular problem or situation. I do speak up when I actually have a chance to get on the board, and I only speak on the things I know about…I don’t make up some crap and post it.

Anyway, for you guys that I clash with…I’m actively doing something about it. For anybody else, please just research and learn as much as possible before getting in too deep. Mild bolt-ons are generally safe, but even then you might need to worry about things like running too lean at some point. For things like forced induction, proceed cautiously….and please get your car tuned safely even if it’s a “bolt on” kit. To really do forced induction with minimal risk…WAIT. Right now, its too early to really get a feel for the limits of the engine internals, fuel system, drivetrain, etc. All of us are taking some risk right now, just because the FI 350z is such a new animal.

All the above...IMHO....Lurk mode on…time to get more work done in the garage! See the mess I was working on today! >>>

jesseenglish

Trust me I know what you're feelin man.

You and I always seem to agree on things and I'm gonna miss that. Leaving me all alone in this cruel world

Actually, I'm planning on signing off for a couple months myself maybe in January so I can really finish up my ongoing projects.... oil cooler, ATI safety/valet switch, and my biggest project... my 1963 custom Karmann Ghia Convertible. It's about 50% complete and really needs some attention.

little_rod

Well, hopefully this isn't the end for you dude, you will be missed. We do have a lack of real knowledgeable people on this board, and I hate to see yet another go.

Lurk, but post too!!!

D'oh

Sorry to see you go, GaryK.

As an engineer, I greatly appreciate the technical side of your posts and hope that you will change your mind and continue to post technical info when you get the chance.

In the meantime, have fun in the garage!

-D'oh!

little_rod

I have to agree with you, D'oh, in the fact that like the technical side of his or any posts on this board. Just the engineer in me I guess, too.

zzzya

iTrader: (2)

I have enjoyed reading all of your posts and am now more informed if I every go the FI route. I truly feel that some of the installers out there need to be more informed. The Z has been sold to a lot of enthusiasts with money to burn on modding. They are not FI knowledgable but want FI. If the installer is flying by the seat of their pants on the 350Z while installing and they do not recommend certain safety features that all of you have informed many of us about, then bads things may happen. I now know what questions to ask of an installer to see if they know what the heck they are doing. That is a big deal. Thank you.

MY350Z.COM

iTrader: (2)

It seems a lot of the Procharger guys share the same feeling.

12SecZ expressed to me that he tries to help people out, but in turn gets bashed uneccessarily.

now jesseenglish shares the same.

Gary you are always welcome here. Don't let people deter you from posting your thoughts.

Victor

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

GaryK:
When you see something where you can contribute, please do. I enjoy your posts and appreciate the chance to learn from them too. Without contributors like you with technical knowledge and opinions to share, there is no point to coming to the boards.
There is a big difference to openly sharing ideas on vexing or perplexing problems that we face, especially with FI, and throwing down a gauntlet challenge to all who read that someone might know more. I for one come because I know that I have lots to learn, and this is another area to get experience from folks that are doing it. Books and manuals are fine. Articles and evaluations are fine. Manufacturer supported studies and promos are fine. But it is the guy on the street and in the garage that can wave his arm and say...hey, umm, I did all that stuff and I read all that stuff, but.....this is how it really worked and what happened!.
On the leading edge of FI on the VQ35DE we need every experienced person we can find.
At the SoCal G35 meet and greet this weekend there were upwards of 40 cars, including some nice Z's, which was terrific. But I had the only sc car, and that was not....I really wanted to talk with another enthusiast over some of these issues from a "user" perspective. Doesn't really matter what brand of hardware. There is an interface issue here. We are going to get it noodled out. But we need to work together to do it sooner and better. The longer it takes to figure it out, and to get the knowledge out there to the community, the more likely that there will be some unfortunate experiences that could have been avoided. Since most of us should be sympathetic to the concept that the engine saved could be yours, a little slack should be cut for ideas shared.
It is interesting that with the impersonality of the boards, their remoteness, there can be an increased liklihood to share information and take chances in doing so. This does promote some good exchange. But there can also be some wanton stupidity and insensitivity because there is little accountability, and some off center types will even be drawn to that as entertainment or whatever. I came from a military family where one was permitted to express whatever opinion on whatever subject he had...freely and in whatever manner you chose to express it...as long as you were prepared to take a beating for it!
That kept things under control!
Alas, until the internet and the hardware makers enable a keyboard activated return that promotes the transmission of thousands of volts of return energy measured by the number of "diss that idiot" reactions, we will have to put up with them.
Stick with us. The ones that appreciate your comments will get a great deal from them, and that is who you are trying to talk to anyway. The rest don't matter.
Have an egg nog and a good day, and maybe reconsider.
Thanks.

JRock

This is just a general comment not specifically related to any previous post in this thread:

There will always be a few rich kids with their parents' big pockets who expect to be able to just throw a lot of money at something and have it magically work. And with their big money comes big expectations, so the letdown when things DON'T go right (as is the case more than not with car modding) they make a big stink about it.

That is true of every performance car with a mod community. There will always be a few people there who are only there because they feel like spending money to go fast and don't actually have the knowledge or heart or interest to do it right.

You have to ignore that rubbish and focus on the people who really count.

FLY BY Z

This is a good and true post. However, not only does it not apply to this thread, I don't know anyone on this board who it applies to.

GaryK, we will always be waiting hopefully for more of your good input. Don't leave us hanging too often!

boyze

I also encourage you to continue to actively contribute. All input is valuable and good debate requires dissenting viewpoints.

I'm another forum "lurker" that's here to learn from the school and students of hard knocks, albiet, brave students. At some point I hope to add to the content as I dive into the unknown.

It's very easy for these threads to become flame wars especially with the anonymity of a computer screen and keyboard. Most people type their immediate thoughts without the instantaneous interaction of the receiving parties to provide the body language feedback for tactfulness that more natural communication methods provide. Most email banter would never be part of face-to-face conversations. Male testosterone and fisticuffs would rule. Email conversations, therefore, require a thicker skin than most other methods. Of course, leaving some of the ego in the garage wouldn't hurt any of us ;-)

BTW, in regards to the thread title, I have wondered how some of the forum members get much garage time with the number posts that they make. I guess sleep is optional ;-)

MySunset350Z

iTrader: (23)

im sorry i was reading this post and i had to comment. im NOT flaming anyone.

i dont get mods that i cant instal myself because i dont like someone else working on my car. i am currently running nitous. i dont have a prochager nor will i get one, but the way you guys are making it sound is like its ok for a 5k+ investment to go wrong.

im sorry that is so not how it should be. the more money you put into something, the more you should be able to trust that you have a quality product that wont fail.

i dont care weather or not your rich or barely making it, if you put a 5k+ investment in your car, then have to replace your motor with another 5k+ it would pi$$ anyone off at least. then to see its happening more often then it should, i would go crazy.

as with everything out, there is a risk that has to be taken, and there is a chance of error. BUT in this case the risk and chance of error is way above acceptable, especially for the kind of damage this type of error can cause.

ati does need to step up and stop blaming its consumers. not everyone knows how complex a system like this can be, and what steps need to be taken for it function properly. what did ati think, that people who put down that much cash on a procharger will stop modding their cars after that? no way!! ati should of taken their time to understand that people that get this type of mod plan on doing more to their cars, and adjust their setup accordingly.

look at computers for "example".....they are getting better faster and smarter, and yet they are also getting more idiot friendly allowing almost anyone to be able to use them. most people know that by pushing the on button the computer will turn on and they can do whatever it is they want to do. they dont care about what their processer is doing, or how much ram in is their computer or even how they're email gets from point "a" to point "b", it just does. they just know that if you pay money for a good system, thats what you'll get. thats what people that arnt too mechanically inclined should also be able to think of their procharger.


anyway enough of that. this is a great site, but the maturity level has dropped a lot recently. thats why the people that actually do contribute feel like they cant say anything without getting flamed. this is a huge site, not everthing is going to get filtered out and you will have to deal with your share of morons that do nothing but complain. im sorry that your leaving, but you also shouldnt let a few idiots ruin it for a rest of us that actually care about other peoples experiences with this great car.

long post i know.
my .03
peace

hfm

iTrader: (1)

Please reconsider. Some of us read your stuff and appreciate the info.

JRock

Well I'm a rare reader of this forum thus far, so I'll take your word for that. Consider yourselves lucky then, as there are always a few of those types on just about every car forum I frequent.

FLY BY Z

It seems like everyone doing the high dollar mods are intelligent adult individuals that know what they are looking for and the way it should work. They are just getting screwed by a certain manufacturer. I have yet to hear of these types of major problems by other manufacturers than ATI.

F2dmfine

Gary K,

I must say that in the short time that I have been a forum member, I have definitely noticed that you are one of the FEW people on this site that truly know what you are talking about! I would hate to see someone as knowledgable as you go. I actually feel like we need some more people like you who will be helpful and give good and fact based advice on here. I definitely agree 100% with everything you stated here on your opening post. Please reconsider

MSGarrett1

Gary K, well said. Sorry to see you go. Good luck with your work.