Pop goes the HR
Crazy idea.... VQ builders that break the motors in for you on an engine dyno. send at least 2 oil samples (one break in, one normal) throughout the process to blackstone to prove the engine is breaking/broken in properly before handing over to customer. Personally I would be willing to pay more for this kind of engine building service. Not a guarantee that it isn't going to fail, but a sure guarantee it was assembled, machined, and breaking in properly. You would be surprised how good blackstone reports are at finding early signs of doom.
Last edited by djamps; Jul 2, 2012 at 09:33 AM.
Sorry to hear about this man... I'm with Jeff on this one, too many guys talk LS or 2jz without ever mentioning the headaches to get the job done. It is by no means a walk in the park.
On the other hand, I will say that the detune idea is most likely the best bet for your need. This is the name of the game when you decide to add FI to a NA car. If you decide to build, maybe look at clevite for bearings if you can't find anything since I saw that was a mention earlier on (not sure since I have a DE, but might have better luck)
In regards to building, I think it really falls in the builder and how everything is set. There are so many horror stories of builds on here, but you rarely hear about all the wonderful successes. I had 20k on my stock block at 430whp and close to 400wtq. I drove it hard and never had a problem. Decided I wanted more and built another VQ and swapped in. So far it has close to 16k on it with 750+whp ~700wtq (q16), and most of the time running around 600 whp pump. I am very hard on my car, drive it on the streets, grudge match, back and forth to Zdayz 4 years straight. Reliability is achievable (experienced builder + experienced tuner= longevity)
My point is, we can all only give you ADVICE, but ultimately if you love the car, the power, and have the funds, then stick with someone you really trust to build your motor and enjoy the car. I do suggest talking to Hal@ Dynosty or Larry@ SP with motor options... They definitely have more experience with the HR then most of us. Both are very good and straight forward, even when you don't want to hear it.
Good luck man!
On the other hand, I will say that the detune idea is most likely the best bet for your need. This is the name of the game when you decide to add FI to a NA car. If you decide to build, maybe look at clevite for bearings if you can't find anything since I saw that was a mention earlier on (not sure since I have a DE, but might have better luck)
In regards to building, I think it really falls in the builder and how everything is set. There are so many horror stories of builds on here, but you rarely hear about all the wonderful successes. I had 20k on my stock block at 430whp and close to 400wtq. I drove it hard and never had a problem. Decided I wanted more and built another VQ and swapped in. So far it has close to 16k on it with 750+whp ~700wtq (q16), and most of the time running around 600 whp pump. I am very hard on my car, drive it on the streets, grudge match, back and forth to Zdayz 4 years straight. Reliability is achievable (experienced builder + experienced tuner= longevity)
My point is, we can all only give you ADVICE, but ultimately if you love the car, the power, and have the funds, then stick with someone you really trust to build your motor and enjoy the car. I do suggest talking to Hal@ Dynosty or Larry@ SP with motor options... They definitely have more experience with the HR then most of us. Both are very good and straight forward, even when you don't want to hear it.
Good luck man!
I want to see someone that drives their 600+ hp built VQ 100 miles each way to work AND do a few HPDE's a year. Someone that's done this for let's say a warranty period of (3 years or 36k miles) Then I say it's reliable. Reliable is such a lose term. I think it should be quantified. I'm sure some of the scientist on this board would agree. I now I would want to derive some sort of measurement or quantification (me = Scientist).
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Jeff, I couldn't agree more. LS could have been an option but the time and money involved to do it right is much higher than other options. Couple that with the fact that at the end of the day, a boosted HR motor in a Nissan is more marketable. Nobody wants to be tracking down issues with a big swap like the LS. Is it more reliable, probably. Is it more fun, maybe. Is it more expense, yes. After having a couple of days to mull it over and get over my feelings being hurt (actually smashed), there are a few options.
The quickest (outside of part-out) is another stock motor. But what if...for a few extra $$$ I could be fortunate to get a well built car, keeping the whp << 600 and have fun. It is a hobby not a profession. This is a third car not a daily. At the end of the day, I really don't want to part the car out because I would end up (just like last time) getting bored without a car and starting a new project.
So really it is another stock motor, detuned. Or a built motor from a competent builder. If I run another stock motor, I will still be gun-shy. If I run a built motor, I will probably be gun-shy.
So what are the failure points of a built motor? Is it really just rod bearings? Cause short of tuning/fuel/etc what else will fail? We are talking about keeping it under 600whp. I am really not sure that the bearings need to be aftermarket.
I know there are successful HR builds that haven't grenaded. In my case we are thinking either a rod snapped or a rod connecting bolt snapped. We will see in a few days. I visited the shop where the tear-down is happening during lunch and everything is already off the top of the motor. They are almost ready to lift the car off the motor. It will be fun, no doubt, to see what caused the issue.
Now, financially, I don't have money to "throw away" and this happening only a few months after my final tune is disheartening. But I have a great local shop that can keep the car and we can work on it little by little. If it had been 12-24 months after the build then it would have been less of financial impact but that is the way the ball bounces.
Thanks for the input to everyone.
The quickest (outside of part-out) is another stock motor. But what if...for a few extra $$$ I could be fortunate to get a well built car, keeping the whp << 600 and have fun. It is a hobby not a profession. This is a third car not a daily. At the end of the day, I really don't want to part the car out because I would end up (just like last time) getting bored without a car and starting a new project.
So really it is another stock motor, detuned. Or a built motor from a competent builder. If I run another stock motor, I will still be gun-shy. If I run a built motor, I will probably be gun-shy.
So what are the failure points of a built motor? Is it really just rod bearings? Cause short of tuning/fuel/etc what else will fail? We are talking about keeping it under 600whp. I am really not sure that the bearings need to be aftermarket.
I know there are successful HR builds that haven't grenaded. In my case we are thinking either a rod snapped or a rod connecting bolt snapped. We will see in a few days. I visited the shop where the tear-down is happening during lunch and everything is already off the top of the motor. They are almost ready to lift the car off the motor. It will be fun, no doubt, to see what caused the issue.
Now, financially, I don't have money to "throw away" and this happening only a few months after my final tune is disheartening. But I have a great local shop that can keep the car and we can work on it little by little. If it had been 12-24 months after the build then it would have been less of financial impact but that is the way the ball bounces.
Thanks for the input to everyone.
sorry to hear about this happening.
The thing with engine failures. They don't always have to be at a time of stress on the engine. If there is a fatigue fracture of a critical part it can fail at a normal idle rpm if the fracture is great enough. The damage can occur any time and the event of destruction is just waiting to happen.
With regards to stock engines. They are built by parts of the cheapest nature. They are designed to hold the stock power so they aren't going all out on strength in their design. On top of that there can be defects in the metal. You can never predict that or would you ever know. Luck of the draw unfortunately. That weakness might handle 10,000 hell miles and finally decide it's done. It might last 20 miles on the dyno and decide it's done.
I love seeing posts from guys suggesting all these wild and hard to perform swaps when they drive a stock block car. And don't even bother arguing with me that LS or 2jz swap isn't hard to perform. look at all the work involved and the YEARS it has taken members to have a decent swap build. If it were easy everyone would have them and they would be done in weeks, not months/years.
The thing with engine failures. They don't always have to be at a time of stress on the engine. If there is a fatigue fracture of a critical part it can fail at a normal idle rpm if the fracture is great enough. The damage can occur any time and the event of destruction is just waiting to happen.
With regards to stock engines. They are built by parts of the cheapest nature. They are designed to hold the stock power so they aren't going all out on strength in their design. On top of that there can be defects in the metal. You can never predict that or would you ever know. Luck of the draw unfortunately. That weakness might handle 10,000 hell miles and finally decide it's done. It might last 20 miles on the dyno and decide it's done.
I love seeing posts from guys suggesting all these wild and hard to perform swaps when they drive a stock block car. And don't even bother arguing with me that LS or 2jz swap isn't hard to perform. look at all the work involved and the YEARS it has taken members to have a decent swap build. If it were easy everyone would have them and they would be done in weeks, not months/years.
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One other point that i was thinking about. Race engines are ran for a maximum number of events and then tore down, inspected, and probably disposed of. Lessons learned about wear are applied to the next motor.
Also, maybe this just isn't the platform to have for a high horsepower hobby car. Thought about that too but I love the 350z in general.
Also, maybe this just isn't the platform to have for a high horsepower hobby car. Thought about that too but I love the 350z in general.
Last edited by f150intally; Jul 2, 2012 at 11:07 AM.
Did you drive it everyday (both stock and built)? I think that's what people want to know. Yeah we can all drive our cars hard at the track, but does it get driven on a daily basis?
I want to see someone that drives their 600+ hp built VQ 100 miles each way to work AND do a few HPDE's a year. Someone that's done this for let's say a warranty period of (3 years or 36k miles) Then I say it's reliable. Reliable is such a lose term. I think it should be quantified. I'm sure some of the scientist on this board would agree. I now I would want to derive some sort of measurement or quantification (me = Scientist).
I want to see someone that drives their 600+ hp built VQ 100 miles each way to work AND do a few HPDE's a year. Someone that's done this for let's say a warranty period of (3 years or 36k miles) Then I say it's reliable. Reliable is such a lose term. I think it should be quantified. I'm sure some of the scientist on this board would agree. I now I would want to derive some sort of measurement or quantification (me = Scientist).
If I can give one major piece of advice if you decide to build, look for a machinist who races. Someone who builds dirt cars, or dragsters, something that takes alot of hard abuse. They typically are the best builders for longevity unless your using a platform specific specialist. I have used a local machinist who builds/ races dirt cars and have had fantastic success.
Yes I drive it everyday, no snow or rain however. From freezing cold to 100+ it gets driven. Shorts trips to the store, or hours of driving through multiple states. Did this both stock and built. This is a street car, not a track car. I'm not sure how you would give much more measurement than that.
If I can give one major piece of advice if you decide to build, look for a machinist who races. Someone who builds dirt cars, or dragsters, something that takes alot of hard abuse. They typically are the best builders for longevity unless your using a platform specific specialist. I have used a local machinist who builds/ races dirt cars and have had fantastic success.
If I can give one major piece of advice if you decide to build, look for a machinist who races. Someone who builds dirt cars, or dragsters, something that takes alot of hard abuse. They typically are the best builders for longevity unless your using a platform specific specialist. I have used a local machinist who builds/ races dirt cars and have had fantastic success.
You're advice makes sense though. From an engineering perspective if you get someone who builds race motors from a different motor they could in theory apply their knowledge to the new platform. I can equate it to a software engineer that knows many programming languages (C#, Java, Lisp, Ada) etc... Thanks for your input!!
Last edited by bigcloud; Jul 2, 2012 at 12:43 PM.
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Yes I drive it everyday, no snow or rain however. From freezing cold to 100+ it gets driven. Shorts trips to the store, or hours of driving through multiple states. Did this both stock and built. This is a street car, not a track car. I'm not sure how you would give much more measurement than that.
If I can give one major piece of advice if you decide to build, look for a machinist who races. Someone who builds dirt cars, or dragsters, something that takes alot of hard abuse. They typically are the best builders for longevity unless your using a platform specific specialist. I have used a local machinist who builds/ races dirt cars and have had fantastic success.
If I can give one major piece of advice if you decide to build, look for a machinist who races. Someone who builds dirt cars, or dragsters, something that takes alot of hard abuse. They typically are the best builders for longevity unless your using a platform specific specialist. I have used a local machinist who builds/ races dirt cars and have had fantastic success.
Thanks for the input.
So really it is another stock motor, detuned. Or a built motor from a competent builder. If I run another stock motor, I will still be gun-shy. If I run a built motor, I will probably be gun-shy.
So what are the failure points of a built motor? Is it really just rod bearings? Cause short of tuning/fuel/etc what else will fail? We are talking about keeping it under 600whp. I am really not sure that the bearings need to be aftermarket.
Now on the built engines. Those almost always fail with a spun bearing of some type or another unfortunate mishap (could be tune but it's rare). It boils down to mostly the builder. Not often are aftermarket pistons or rods flying apart unless it's a seriously extreme build (1000hp or something).
There are TONS of boosted 350z/g35 out there that aren't on these forums and run every day. Heck, i've met 5 that daily drive their car (for years) and haven't heard of this message forum just in st louis since i've moved here. We hear about all the failures and none of the success. Percentage wise there are more than live by far than the ones that explode. Doesn't help anything since you because an unlucky one but the fact is there is no way to predict that.
I use Eric's machine shop in Carmel, NY for all my motor work. He did the machine work and installed the pistons, rods and crank since I had the rotating assembly balanced. I had him put the heads on and set the motor at top dead center. The rest of the assembly I did myself, timing assembly, pumps, seals, etc... It's not that it's hard, just really time consuming.
I supplied all the parts with the exception of the bearings. I personally dislike ACL's and prefer Clevite where ever possible, and he personally prefers to source the bearings himself.
They are a multi-generation shop, that I have used for years since I was a kid. The old man still does the machine work, but he is precise and that's what I was looking for. The machinist is very often lightly looked at and in reality no matter how good the assembler, if something is off in the machine work or balancing, then it's all junk IMO.
I supplied all the parts with the exception of the bearings. I personally dislike ACL's and prefer Clevite where ever possible, and he personally prefers to source the bearings himself.
They are a multi-generation shop, that I have used for years since I was a kid. The old man still does the machine work, but he is precise and that's what I was looking for. The machinist is very often lightly looked at and in reality no matter how good the assembler, if something is off in the machine work or balancing, then it's all junk IMO.
With stock engines it's almost always a part failure due to an imperfection. Rods snap, pistons fracture, etc. This can be due to detonation or it could be due to a weakness in the metal and fatigue. No matter what people say the OEM companies use the lowest bidder and the cheapest crap they can find. Quality control is very low. The quality control is enough to make a stock power engine on stock tune run without blowing up (and even then it still happens). There is not near the consistency to provide a safety in pushing extra horsepower.
Now on the built engines. Those almost always fail with a spun bearing of some type or another unfortunate mishap (could be tune but it's rare). It boils down to mostly the builder. Not often are aftermarket pistons or rods flying apart unless it's a seriously extreme build (1000hp or something).
There are TONS of boosted 350z/g35 out there that aren't on these forums and run every day. Heck, i've met 5 that daily drive their car (for years) and haven't heard of this message forum just in st louis since i've moved here. We hear about all the failures and none of the success. Percentage wise there are more than live by far than the ones that explode. Doesn't help anything since you because an unlucky one but the fact is there is no way to predict that.
Now on the built engines. Those almost always fail with a spun bearing of some type or another unfortunate mishap (could be tune but it's rare). It boils down to mostly the builder. Not often are aftermarket pistons or rods flying apart unless it's a seriously extreme build (1000hp or something).
There are TONS of boosted 350z/g35 out there that aren't on these forums and run every day. Heck, i've met 5 that daily drive their car (for years) and haven't heard of this message forum just in st louis since i've moved here. We hear about all the failures and none of the success. Percentage wise there are more than live by far than the ones that explode. Doesn't help anything since you because an unlucky one but the fact is there is no way to predict that.
The quality of the parts and their levels is important too. Eagle rods CAN hold more then 500whp as we've seen many do, but the quality control of Eagle is terrible where i've pulled them out of the box and you can visually see a bend in one of the rods.
There's just alot of variables to success with motors just like anything else. OEM manufacturers never intended for these cars to get pushed as hard as they do today by us enthusiasts.
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I have spoke to GTM and their special bearings are included in the price of their short block. But I don't think bearings will fail if they are clearanced properly and assembled properly. Even some high horsepower DE builds and ALL HR builds are using stock bearings to this point.
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No doubt...in peeking through the window the technician said it looks like their was a rod cap (or something) lodged in there which may indicate to him that the rod bolt broke. I will be visiting the shop later today.
Will keep this posted...
Will keep this posted...
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No doubt...in peeking through the window the technician said it looks like their was a rod cap (or something) lodged in there which may indicate to him that the rod bolt broke. I will be visiting the shop later today.
Will keep this posted....
Will keep this posted....
Last edited by f150intally; Jul 3, 2012 at 09:49 AM.
I have spoke to GTM and their special bearings are included in the price of their short block. But I don't think bearings will fail if they are clearanced properly and assembled properly. Even some high horsepower DE builds and ALL HR builds are using stock bearings to this point.
No doubt...in peeking through the window the technician said it looks like their was a rod cap (or something) lodged in there which may indicate to him that the rod bolt broke. I will be visiting the shop later today.
Will keep this posted...on a positive note, there were no chucks in the oil draining which was interesting.
Will keep this posted...on a positive note, there were no chucks in the oil draining which was interesting.
Last edited by djamps; Jul 3, 2012 at 09:44 AM.
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Guess we could use a filter cutter to get the oil from the filter. How much oil do they require?