I make it fix for you! Larger Injector in stock location!

I make it draw too!

 

I'm talking about a 20+ psi setup on a built motor.. that's why I don't like injector-in-plenum and 550cc injectors.

agreed.

I'm evaluating options right now. It's good to hear from people who have experience with secondary injector setups.. I like the TEC3, it might be a good option.. we'll see.. like I've said several times, I've got plenty of time to evaluate the various options.. I won't be touching my engine for quite some time. Brakes and suspension come first, among other things.

 

"As for tapering timing, don't make the mistake of making blank tuning statements like that......ideally you want to advance timing as much as you possibly can until such time as knock is produced, but it's based on so many, many variables. More often than not on a forced induction setup, a downard taper of timing in the upper rpm ranges (after the torque peak) is generally needed."

More timeing is not always a good thing. Optimal advance is when the flame front hits the piston at the proper time, usually when the most amount of torque can be produced. Higher boost levels contain more air and fuel so they will burn quicker and therefore require less advance.

 

Daking - are we nuts about what? About a standalone system costing $2500.....that's on the lower end of the spectrum if you do comparison shopping amongst these types of ecu's. Haltech and a few others are on the lower end of the price scale, Motec, Pectel and others are on teh higher end - Electromotive setups tend to be more expensive than the cheapest units, while offering features usually reserved for the truly high end setups. Considering what the TEC is capable of, and considering the companies sole purpose is making standalone programmable engine management.

azrale - sounds like a badd *** setup man - let us know if you need help putting anything together for it (even if you don't buy from us)

etx - agreed....it's different for every engine.

 

I'm sure between all of us here we can work out a good way to install and pulse some secondaries. I already ordered the megasquirt kit, which is my EIC of choice at the moment. It also has wideband abilities, so I'm excited about getting it going.

 

This would be a great idea if I did not want to do my own tuning and have Tadashi do it for me but I believe in the long run I would be better off with and have better control of the fuel with 6 additional injectors. Larger injectors can only be properly tuned for all situations by someone who can correct the factory fuel maps. I cant. I also cant drive to California from North Carolina once a week for a new fuel map install every time I change something on the car.

My original question is still the same: Does anyone see a way to fit 6 additional injectors in this manifold?

 

You're a meanie Swinkie I am telling!

I withdraw the draw I make I didn't sell you the car or the kit I just make the draw!!!!!

You make mean to me!

 

That was not my intention. I am just trying to state my opinion, ask a question, and get a possible conclusion out of the mess at the end. You are the only one who offered a possible solution. Your solution works for you but will not work for me. I need a different solution. I thought I should include why I need a different solution, so I did. I really only had one purpose in this post which no one has really ever approached. We have discussed why everyone thinks 6 added injectors is a bad/good idea. We have discussed why 2 more gigantic injectors mounted somewhere north of the TB would work/not work. The original question was and still is "Can 6 additional injectors be installed into the ports on the manifold or not?" We have made a discussion out of the reasons everyone thinks what they think about everything but the injector placement question. Oh well, I guess its a forum after all.

 

I was just kidding bro.

Here let me attempt to address your question with some reading I did last night.

Import Tuner Mag October 2003

Car was not a Z but the article was great. At first I have to admit I thought you were going down the wrong path with your secondary injectors until I read the article.

I understand your frustration with the kit and the elevations and it sounds like dual mapping with more fuel is not your cup of tea or will not work for you (for whatever reason, it's moot to me. )

So here is what I found and it is inline with what I was thinking after looking at the pic in question when you asked where would you put them.

The article is about an Edelbrock EK turbo kit for a 16 valve sohc civic. Bear with me because the article was based on "fuel, timing and spark" and applies to your situation, complete with pictures.

What Edelbrock did was come out with a new manifold that holds 4 extra injectors (in your case it would be 6.) They had to custom make a new Fuel Rail (pic on page 102 if you can find one) and an AEM FPR all hooked up to a Garret Turbo which is "identical to a Jspec Nissan Sylvia type setup."

A pic is worth a thousan words but they do have 4 primary injectors and 4 secondary injectors and they did it with a new fuel rail and manifold so it is possible, how much do you want to spend or fabricate?

Let me quote some good points from the 6 or 7 page article since you can't read it with me. Here is a primary quote I consider this a "fair use" of the article by the way (cover my butt.)

Since there are four auxiallilry injectors used the fuel feed line also has a distribution block built into it to supply fuel to the secondary fuel line.
FUEL AND SPARK
Passing SMOG is probablt diifucult blah blah blah ... The brain behind the fuel and timing for the kit is half stand alone and half piggy back control. The system uses it's MAP sensor built into the ECU but does not require an rpm signal and power source from the factory ecu. The injectors are driven INDEPENTLY BY THE EDELBROCK COMPUTER while timing is controlled by modifying the ECU signal.

The unit comes preprogrammed but we personlly think that when their race upgrade comes out it will come with the controller for the computer.

Now I didn't type all of that in there just to make it sound like you are dumb, your an Engineer and based on your past post I have read you know your sh*t.

I am not a self tuner but I am a problem trouble shooter and I read and research everything I can, especially when I have problems.

So to answer your question, you could modify the manifold and fuel rail and yes crazy as I thought it sounded Edelbrock has done this. I guess you feel it is necassary so you can read up on how Edelbrock does it as a reference cite or design you own.

I was thinking originally before I made that joke post and rushing out the door to work that you could design new fuel rails, but you would still need to make some other modifications, at least you have the equipment (Greddy etc) and the brains to do it.

Well I could type in the whole article but that would be copyright violation territory so maybe you can glean something from what I posted.

Good Luck.

 

I have done it aswell. I am running this system on my 420a (chrysler) equiped eclipse. It's a dream to work with, its flawless really. I have run 22 psi on pump gas (93 octane) , 8.8:1 comp. I have 265 primarys controled my the stock ecu, and 30lbers as secondarys. This setup has made over 400 hp and is very reliable for daily driving.

As far as clearance goes, I won't know until I get the plenum off and have a good look at the lower intake mani.

Everyone interested in this type of setup should review the megasquirt site at http://www.megasquirt.info

 

Why wouldn't two big injectors work? If you get the crawford plenum, the air flow should be pretty even across the cylinders. And since the air and fuel in the plenum is underpressure, it should flow pretty well. Doesn't Stillen's system use two additional injector? I just don't see the need for 6 addtional injectors.

 

Evened out air flow was also mentioned in the article, done by this modified plenum, good point. I have a Crawford on this setup and some have questioned it but I have been doing allot of reading that shows even 8:5. highly modified TT Supra's running high boost have used larger plenums to even out the airflow.

I think if you go the flash route you just have to get where you want to be at mod wise then flash and you are done and it's a safe route. Others are always wanting to explore new territory and that is what makes the market better. Just look at how we resolved the timing issue on our own here, now we learn we need more fuel. What bothers me is most of us have ATI Kits (majority) and we were not offered a 7th injector or larger injectors or any timing control, every other kit does.

Why didn't they? Cost. What if ATI had included a timing box and 6 injectors and tacked on a grand? Well we wouldn't have all these blown engines and FI Fears. Ah what if's... so if someone wants to try this go for it. Seems expensive and time consuming but for someone who is almost there like Swinkie and his Emanage why not go all the way?

Here you go on how to do the secondary injectors, read away and go for it and report back!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...dary+injectors

 

BTW, I have six brand new stock injectors is someone is interested came with a new engine, they have about 1k miles on them (shameless plug.)

 

here is a look at a generic FPR

This above shows the internals of a generic Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR). The FPR is a diaphragm operated pressure valve. The FPR maintains a constant pressure differential between fuel system pressure and intake manifold pressure. When intake manifold pressure is low (high vacuum), fuel pressure is low. When intake manifold pressure is high (low vacuum), fuel pressure is high. This constant differential guarantees that, for a given pulse to the injectors, the volume of fuel dispensed at the injectors remains constant. In other words, the volume of fuel injected does not depend on engine load (for a given pulse).

Intake manifold vacuum is routed through a pressure regulator control solenoid valve. This solenoid valve is located to the right of the switching solenoid valve (see secondary air injection control system under emssions control system) and behaves similarly. When not energized, it conducts intake vacuum. When energized, it vents (to the atmosphere) the FPR. The pressure regulator control solenoid valve is energized only during a hot start condition. When intake air is hot (as indicated by intake air temperature sensor), the Engine Control Unit (ECU) energizes the solenoid valve and vents the FPR for 90 seconds. When the FPR is vented to the atmosphere (intake manifold pressure is maximum), the fuel pressure is raised to its upper limit (maximum fuel pressure).

 

Here is good info on secondary injector setups. It's for a 4-cyl, but it the same basic idea.

http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/8inj.html

 

Like I said it can be done, how much money you wanna spend, how much time? Start building, just remember it's a VQ35DE not a Honda!