I am having issues with trying to setup my new motor in an 04 G35. The motor is being built and should be done in about 6 weeks.

It is ready for as much boost as I would ever want, but had planned on going with 20psi. I am having issues with engine management and am starting to think it will be very difficult if not impossible to run that much boost with the ECU's that are available. And as far as I know the reflahes are only good to about 450 hp????

The major problem is the CAM system where everything is wireless(fiber-optics) and the Electronic throttle body(fly by wire) I have spoken with quite a few tuners Including Jim Wolfe, Lance at Toyomoto, and Frank Smith at SPF, and none of them have a solution. As it is AEM, Haltec, Autronic, and all the others I have looked at can't control the TB.

Anyone have any suggestions??
Am I stuck with a reflash?
How much HP can a reflash support?

Thanks

Robin

 

Why don't you combine the reflash with something else?

 

I am certainly no expert, but a reflash should be able to handle 20 PSI of boost. The ECU sets when the injectors spray and for how long. As long as the injectors are the right size and the fuel pump, lines, and rails can deliver enough pressure and volume, you should not have any issues. Again, I am not an expert and could be wrong.

However, my think is that the stock ECU only controls how long the injectors stay open and not how much actual fuel they flow. Obviously, the ECU knows how much is flowing because the stock injectors only flow so much for a given amount of time. But if you up the injector size and leave the "open" window the same, then more fuel will flow. At any rate, I would call TechnoSquare for a final answer. They certainly know the most about our stock ECUs and could tell you for certain whether the stock ECU is up to the task.

 

the stock ECU is NOT up to the task for lots of reasons.

Most notably -- the stock MAF. It can't read the kind of airflow that 20 psi will produce.

Second -- the injectors. The stock injectors won't flow enough fuel, and remapping the ECU can't really fully compensate for larger injectors properly.

The only good solution I can think of at the moment would involve two separate ECUs -- the stock one controlling the throttle and CAN communications, and another ECU actually controlling the injectors and timing. In this setup, you have to trick the stock ECU into thinking it still controls the car, which isn't easy.

The ECU is the main reason we haven't seen any high-HP Z's yet, with one or two exceptions. Those cars (the tuner cars from Japan) mostly seem to replace the throttle with a cable unit and dump the HVAC system, so CAN communication and drive-by-wire are no longer an issue.

 

In the secondary injector thread, there's this link. It's about adding 4 injectors to an Eclipse. So you can do something similar to the Z. Add 6 injectors on the manifold, or two big injector before the TB, use J&S to control the timing under boost, and let the stock ECU handle the non boost situations.

 

What exactly is the benefit to CAN besides being able to say your ECU is comprised of a fiber optic network? It seems like it is just preventing everything from going right.

 

How soon do you need a solution? We are working out a HKS FCON-V Pro solution but its gonna take us a little time.

FCON-V Pro is a standalone, but it also retains the stock ECU for functions like this. I beleive this is what the Jun 350z is using, as are MANY japanese extreme machines.

The FCON is an exclusive thing, and dealing with it can potentially be a pain in the *** if your not the dealer. I still need to find out what I am allowed to let customers do on their own, but part of me is thinking that I might be directed to only be able to retail the systems if we install and tune them... i have heard rumours this is part of the Pro Dealer agreement.

I will have that type of stuff worked out hopefully by the end of the week, if not then early next week... then after that it will take me unknown time to get my twin turbo Z running on it.

Just keep it in mind, and watch for any updates i post here, or even give me a call if you want to chat about the system. 630-208-1336 ask for Charles.

it may be the current best solution, but might not be for everyone.

-charles

 

Right now I am looking at about 2 months, I would like to be up and running with full boost, 1000cc injectors(give or take),and a proper engine management sys......... or be running a reflash with maybe 10 psi, and waiting for a good ECU to be released.

Quite a dilema.............

Robin

 

Robin.....who told you the CAN system uses fiber optics?

 

Robin,

My car will be going in to the shop on Friday Feb 6th to be fitted with that piggyback we discussed.I decided to do a MAP for 9lbs for now utilizing the DFMU still for the time being..This should easily support 425 to the wheels..This unit is very versitile and can be added to in the future, Via Extra injectors or larger ones..The problem you face with the larger ones is at idle the fuel tends to Drip out, washing out the cylinder walls..I think the optimum setup will be a second set of staged injectors...I can get this ECU to you relatively cheap..It will however be tuned for 2 seperate maps @ 9lbs utilizing the DFMU (which will flow very adiquate amounts of fuel from what I was told by Aeromotive),which will later be replaced with Staged injectors running off of a larger or secondary fuel pump...PM me for pricing Robin..It might help you much more than a reflash at this point as you will be able to tune it up to the limits of the DFMU for now and still have the Fastest G35 in the USA right now!!..
Here is my initial DYNO @ 7lbs...https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=54140

 

From what I understand its a combination of fiberoptic cable and wireless network type stuff(Im no expert on this).............This is what I am told by a couple of reputable tuners and ECU programmers(who are currently working on a Nissan ECU). If you think its something else please let me know, and I guess you can give some input to the guys hoping to come out with a replacement ECU in a few months........I do beleive its called a CAN Protocol Interface that is causing all the hassle, either way, this is the same sort of sys thats in the Audi's(for the last 5 yrs) and it is coming out in the EVO next year, much to the distress of many performance shops.

Robin

 

CAN is more like a modem-to-modem interface.......i think they were mistaken when they told you that this was anything to do with fiber optics........fiber optics is used to keep signals from degrading over long distances

each of the car's computers can encode and decode information to and from the CAN system wires.......this makes it possible to send a sh!tload of information across a couple of wires

this is the future, for all cars, eventually.........tuning will catch up to it.........its already being figured out at this moment..........check out the hydra-EMS........it should be capable of doing what you want to do

 

Couple comments:

1. Sounds like a bad *** setup (once the parts are figured out). Very interested to hear how things progress.

2. CAN is a communications protocol (Controller Area Network). The primary goal is to drastically reduce wiring and make a system modular. We use this quite a bit on our products. I'm no expert (since I'm a mechanical engineer) but basically it is like having many networked computers (nodes). Each node has it's own little controller, and communicates with the rest of the system over two wires. This means that you no longer need to run large wiring harnesses everywhere, but instead only the two CAN signal wires and then whatever power and ground are required. Take your tail lights for example (not sure if they are controlled by CAN, but they will make a good illustration). So lets say that in your taillight assembly you have a reverse light, a red tail light, a brake light, and an amber turn signal. In a typical wiring setup, each light would take two wires, plus you'd need some relays for the turn signals and something to make the brake light go on when you stepped on the brake and the reverse light activate when you go in revers (8 wires, a relay, and a switch for the brake pedal and reverse ). In a CAN setup you could do the same thing with 4-5 wires and a microcontroller. You have a +Power wire, a return wire, possibly a chassis ground wire, and the two CAN wires. Your lights are all LED's mounted to a single PCB with the integrated microcontroller. When you step on the brakes, the brake pedal sensor communicates to the network that it is active. The light assembly sees this through the network and the microcontroller activates the brake light. Same with the reverse light and turn signals. Anyhow, the benefits may be small in something like the light assembly, but the payoffs can be large when you start getting many sensors all trying to communicate with eachother. Furthermore, since you are using software to control everything (the blink rate of the turn signal for instance), the behavior of the devices can be modified more easily than changing out mechanical components (as long as you can edit and intall the software/firmware, which is difficult when you don't work for the company).

3. As far as fuel goes, the only people I know of that are running very high boost (Skidazzle and another dude with a similar setup - maybe I'm thinkg of daking who posted earlier) have used the Aeromotive DFMU as well as something like an E-manage. They use the DFMU to control non-stock injectors (I think they are larger than stock ones) and the E-manage to fine tune them. That way they get the boost sensing capability of the DFMU. I think they are using that setup until something more integrated comes along, but from what I've read, they seem quite happy with it.

4. Since the Z's ECU goes into open loop mode at the drop of a hat, using a reflash with massive injectors and a larger fuel pump may not be too bad a solution either. On the Z, the ECU will go open loop as soon as the MAF maxes out, so as long as you tune your fuel maps correctly, you shouldn't have to worry about accidently going lean due to the ECU trying to run closed loop during high boost situations. Uncontrolled bost spikes may still be an issue though, since you won't have tuned for those conditions.

Good luck and keep us updated.

-D'oh!

 

Tadashi is a drifter and a racer, who says he is limited to 425hp? Did he himself say that? I highly doubt it.

Lots of wierd info here, he flashed my ECU at 11 pounds and it never even made the front page lol.

My only limiting factor was my stock internals, a larger fuel pump, and a FPR.

If I had your internals I would have driven to RB Motoring across the road (also posts here and does mail orders) and got with Victor Reyes who owns like 3 Skylines and got a larger fuel pump, an FPR and then reflashed to a higher level of boost.

It is unchartered territory for TS I am sure but I would like them to say they can't do it not second or even third hand because I bet dollars to donuts that they can if given enough fuel.

To say you are limited by stock injectors at 20 psi is sorta wierd, anyone reading this (I would hope) would assume you had addressed the injector size after all that you have spent (I know I diod 3 lines into your post.)

It seems everyone here is a Vendor wanting to sell you stuff now lol.

I am not trying to sell you anything Jill just saying what works for me. I ran 11 pounds reflashed, has anyone else here, I have witnesses?

My car is still at 10 pounds daily driver till this weekend when we drop it to 9 lbs! I run at 34 degree temps at 10 PSI daily!

As far as "washing your cylinder walls and dripping" this is the beauty of the reflash.

When you are not at WOT you are in closed loop mode you are not gonna flow fuel for 20 PSI of boost in closed loop mode at 2k rpm's!

Lots of options, lots of opinions. If you polled the group and called 5 more Vendors you would get 5 more stories of why theirs is or isn't better.

I like the FCON, I wanted it bad, they didn't make a wiring harness for me, it's about 1300.00 bucks last I checked but can't be beat if they make a Z application, that is my opinion so now you have another opinion for your setup reflash or FCON lol! Till then I love my setup and everyone saying it doesn't work is once again invited to come for a ride like others have or LOG DATA (which no one has ever asked to do.) Anyways good luck, you weill be the car to beat this year!

 

Oh yeah one final thing and a couple of questions,

I had a 500RWHP T/A with a 3200 Stall Torque Converter and was bracket racing. I was making over 500rw Torque with a 125 shot and other mods.

My limiting factor became my rear end. To be more specific, my rear axles became stripped after numerous hard launches on DR's and eventually they went and sent metal shaving into my gears too (bye bye rear axles AND brane new 373 gears and this was with a POSI rear.

So, my question is are you addressing that and do you plan on racing?

My goal has never been an 11 second car much to others disbelief, I like low 12's for a reason (no roll cage needed.)

Do you plan on racing with all that boost and if so will you address the drive train and rear and roll cage? If so let me know what you use!

Have fun!!

 

If you look at the photos of the Top S. and other high HP turbo cars from Japan. Look at the Throttle Body on them. They all have a cable connected to them.

The safest, easiest, and best bet for your car would be to do what others have for YEARS. Just take a stand alone, (AEM none plug and play, FAST, MOTEC, ACCEL, AUTRONICS, EFI SOLUTIONS, TEC3, ect. ) And have it in the car, along with the Stock computer to run the AC, ABS, and all other systems.

Yes you will loose the TCS but at the power level you will be at, I doubt you will care.

Yes you will have to add a Cable to your Throttle Body. Any good tuner should be able to do this for you.

Yes you will have to swap to a cable style Throttle body. There are thousands out there from OEM cars to pick from it will just have to be adapted to work.

If you are spending top dollar on making this car fast, why chance what is going to run the beast. Just do what is tried and true to work in the past. It would be silly to chance the tuning, by "tweaking" out a OEM computer to handle that power level when it was never designed for it. And also there is n't a lot of people in the world experenced with the factory ECM at that level. Like I said, look at the high hp cars from Japan, and look what is running them.

You can have a street car and a Stand Along, it just takes some work to get everything to work right. Best of luck to you.

my.02
EA

 

we're clearly in agreement.. the drive-by-wire throttle isn't an issue. swapping to a cable unit is cake -- and you can pick up an OEM one from a factory boosted car with a MAP sensor attached to make the whole conversion even easier -- no extra work in trying to install a MAP sensor.

the only remaining problem is keeping the stock ECU. The stock ECU will go nuts if you just disconnect it from the engine and try to keep it running. If it's receiving no signal from TPS, MAF, etc and no detected impedance on the injector lines, etc.. it won't know what to do.. this means we have to fabricate some method to trick the stock ECU into thinking it's controlling a motor.. which is a pain in the butt.

the ECU issue is by far the biggest thing in the way of high-powered 350Zs, IMO. The engine parts are there, turbos are available, etc. Everything is in place but engine management. This is the problem we face with a car that uses "cutting-edge" technology like CAN and drive-by-wire (although this is new to the auto world, CAN and drive-by-wire are ancient technologies ).. but it can be overcome.. I just require a solution that enables me to tune the car myself.. and unfortunately, the F CON V doesn't allow for that.. so it's no longer a consideration, no matter how well it works. The TS reflash falls into the same category.

 

Fuel Sys will be upgraded completly, looking at around around 1000cc injectors, this depends on how much boost of course.
This is not a race car, and will never be raced, problem with just adding a cable and junking the stock ECU is the Gauges will not work, the $2k Nav sys prob won't work, who knows if the AC will work. I am doing more research and will keep you posted if I come of with a veritable solution. One has to ask though why there are plenty of other cars(Supra, EVO, Eclipse, Etc) that all are running more than 20psi and our cars are not.........I doubt it is cause all Z owners are not interested in high boost applications......this is not the easiest solution to come up with.................Any tuners out there that say they can do it?

Robin

 

First of all Robin,
Empty your pm box..
Second of all,As tempted as you may be to rip out the stock ECU do not do it...This will cause various other things in the car Not to work..VDC,ABS,airbags,ect...You will not want the headache you will experience if you partake into this project...Stick to the K.I.S.S. method here..Keep It Simple Stupid..The less BS the better...Some people here speak the truth,and some just speak what the people that sold the 1000's of dollars of reflashes WANT them to speak..A reflash in your case may or may not be the best solution..I personally like the idea of letting the stock ECU do its job under normal driving conditions and allowing a piggyback do its job under boosted conditions..The stock ECU still retains its ego and thinks its doing its job,while the piggyback intercepts and changes parameters...Be careful going toooo big on the injector size!!!Your not building a car to go from the trailer to the strip and back so I suggest you remain close to stock size with the injectors or not more than 20% larger..And add a set of secondaries for when the extra fuel is needed...
Alot of people on this site have more $$$$ than brains and have paid people to do everything on their cars and live by Technosquare being gospel..
Im not trying to be a salesman here,just trying to offer an alternative to sucking Tadashi and Victor Reyes's dick like others here do so well.....then come to this board WITHOUT showing a DYNO and claim to be the #1FI Z I know I am going to start a flame war but I am really tired of certain people taking shots at me while my back is turned..I never dissed anyones setup,I simply was looking for an alternative that better suits my needs..
Robin , I am confident you will be happy with the system I am developing and be able to tune it yourself with a lap top and wideband O2 sensor, If you dont like it Send it back to me and I will give your $$$ back...(Techno square cant do that can they??Oh no,thats right they want another $600 everytime they touch your ECU.. )
Ps Robin MY tuner is installing and tuning my maps and systems for FREE in exchange for sponsorship...How many other ECU companies do that...What?HuH?None of them??Thats what I thought..Does TS allow you to use a MAP or AMP sensor to control boost??no..Does TS data log??no..
Im not dissing TS in any way,I am simply dissing the person who preaches TS by dissing everyone else's products,you know who you are..TS is a great product,but may not suit everyones specific needs..Thats all I am saying ...When the time comes you WILL see DYNO SHEETS and LEGITIMATE #'s on my ECU...Even if its a FAILURE I will still post...I am YET to see this MISTICAL 11lb or for that matter 9LB DYNO SHEET....

 

who "took a shot at you" daking?.......i was reading everything and didn't hear anyone slam you

but yeah.....when the untested pulleys were on Max's car, he was making 11psi.......he's making 10psi right now with a mixture of the pulleys......ECM is handling the fueling and the timing.......no problems so far.......the thing's a beast