Hey all, since I posted here with a few questions along the way, thought I would post the dyno video and results on Premium and E85. Running a Vortech with a 3.12 pulley, 750cc, AEM 340 fuel pump and a bunch of upgrades. I am just about to get the car back and already thinking about the 2.87 pulley. LOL I talked about it with the garage when they were doing the tune and we were having some boost issues (loose belt), but thought I would go conservative for now. The interesting thing is I have heard keep the torque below 400ft lbs for the rods. Someone was posting their numbers on stock DE motor like mine and was over that with about 483hp. Seems super high to me. I did some reading and some were pointing out it was the Detonation that they believed was the bigger factor in killing the engines. Which is somewhat solved if you are running E85 which I plan to do. Just thought I would get some opinions here rather than the facebook crowd. I realize the answers are subjective by nature given the many configurations and risk tolerance. Click on the attached file below to see the dyno run. Notice how the guy outside the car takes a few steps back from the engine as he really starts to lay it on. LOL

E85 401whp


Premium Fuel

 

Impressive. Since I'm not a FI guy, I'll withhold any suggestions. But get ready to buy more tires, brakes and fuel with this mod- gotta pay (more) to play!

 

For comparison, this is what this guy is saying is setup his on a standard DE motor(not built). Not sure I could sleep at night running something like this?
Hey, I just really noticed his RPM's and he is going up to and past 7k. Can't be a DE right?

 

Thanks. Yeah, I set it up to run premium fuel or E85 as there is a pump only 1.5 miles from my house. The interesting thing is the E85 fuel is about 1/2 the price of the Premium. Should be fun to drive it around and then really test it on the Autocross this spring and see if it holds up ok. Still mainly a weekend car and maybe some day post Covid etc. I will try running it at the track.

The picture of the E85 401hp was early on. I think he may have gotten another 5 or 10hp out of her.

 

E85 also uses more fuel so there won't be a difference as far as running price. DE can rev to 7k but I wouldn't do it often, I believe that's what my redline is set to. I'd talk to Tim since he seems to be the Vortech guru here, but if it were my car I wouldn't want more than 350wtq just so I can actually USE that power and sleep at night like you said lol.
Also one thing to note, there is a reason you don't see people running boosted VQs very often if it's for road race/auto cross they are quite fragile for that due to heat so be careful and keep an eye on oil and coolant temps.

 

Jim, congrats! Great reliable power for running the 3.12 pulley. I wouldn't even bother with 2.87 to be honest. I would enjoy this setup for a while. I think I made a little over 400 when I had the Vortech / 2.87 combo. You are not far behind.

I would spend the money on a very good tire combo before going 2.87. You will enjoy it much more IMO. Upgrade the pulley later if needed.

 

My DE kicked the bucket at 498whp with a 2.87 and E85 @12 psi. Made two giant holes in the block.

 

Thanks guys. It affirms my rational for the set up I picked. The heat concern is also why I tried to go the extra mile on cooling by installing a CSF radiator, 34 row Setrab oil cooler, oil pan extender, and a oil temp gauge. Figure the E85 gas will help as well. So, really in my mind, I have hit at about 10 -15 percent below the maximum output of the engine and maximized the cooling. So, a more conservative FI set up if you could call anything like this such a thing. I am not going to go for more, think this will be plenty for my needs. More just curious how others are extracting so much out of their engine. I suppose we all can do that, its a question of risk and a short engine life.

On another note, I have always wanted to build a engine from scratch. I may do that next year just to see if I can. You can bet I will be asking a lot of questions when and if I start that. For now, going to get the car settled with the current set up and I have some interior mods and a few other things sitting in the garage to keep me occupied. After maybe 3 or 4 weeks of drive time with it, I will head back to the AutoX course and see if she holds up. Good advice on the tires. Might reconsider upgrading my Federal's I have on my OEM Ray track wheels for something more sticky.

 

So, that means the guy with the chart I posted is right up there in the failure area without a doubt. Must have been a blast to drive up to the point of explosion. How long did you run it like that?

Do you agree that Detonation plays a large role in the point of engine failure with these engines? This why the E85 is better to run in them with the higher HP and torque? Just curious about it.

 

The car oddly went out just cruising at around 2k rpm. It started from a rod bolt failure.

 

Jim while the E85 helps on the combustion side of things and keeps knock down that won't save the rods, which is one of the limits. I believe on a stock engine it's rods and HG that will fail more often. You have that pathfinder mod too?
I know I was watching the hi/lo feature on YT and they broke the cars at the first road race event. Was also talking to Savanah as to why she runs an LS and she said it's too complicated to keep a 400-500hp VQ cool and you would need to shut down 5-10 laps in due to heat, just not worth the money for that kind of racing.

 

Jim, Read my Sign!

These motors are much much stronger than most people think.

Lots of people without experience installing a Vortech & breaking the motor.

It's all related to proper setup, proper Fuel System & Proper Tuning!

I never had any problems with the Head Gaskets @ 20 psi

I made 540whp on 93 pump gas, and 577whp++ on C16. My car was setup like this over 40,000 miles, lots of street runs, and over 50 runs at the DragStrip.

Detonation is the Biggest most common cause of motor failure in an otherwire Healthy motor.

In the Dyno attached, AFR's are far to Lean (still tuning), should be more 11.8 at redline.

 

To be fair you are an exception to everyone else, also you can drag without a big cooling system, you won't build heat as much as other racing.

 

Where have you been told anything about my cooling system?

Why would I be an Exception? Hummmmmm

Most of these Vortech cars are just street cars.

 

This has got to be the biggest extreme end numbers I have seen on a stock motor. I have read a lot on the idea that it is the detonation that plays a very big role in engine failure with torque being the next thing behind it that contributes rather than the other way around. I see your maximum torque is 445ft/lbs which is among the highest I have seen as well. Obviously you got a good motor with some very dialed in tuning going on. I will leave it like it is for now, but maybe 6 months down the road I might press my luck a bit farther if I want more. My goal was something conservative, but quick. Think that is what I have right now, but wow, those are impressive numbers. I am well aware of the risks that go with this. Just depends on your goals. I have a Innovate ECF-1 gauge that has the ability to datalog on a laptop while I drive. When I get some time I am going to do some of that and see what kind of numbers I am getting. The gauge is reading the AFR as I am driving, but kinda hard to watch it when you are on the gas! LOL

 

I don't know what your mods are, what I said was you don't need as much cooling for drag racing, as compared to autocross or road racing which is true.
OP is doing autocross IIRC so he wants to be conservative. As far as you being the exception....I mean, look at your power and how long your engine has taken it....how many others have had your results? Whether it just a setup thing, tuning or your engine was just built very well, or all of the above. That's not normal and that's awesome, some day I want to do the same with the HKS unit, because I don't think it gets the credit it deserves!

 

^^ He does have a point Tim. As I’m sure you noticed, a lot of Vortech guys have been falling out. (At least the ones chasing the numbers). We haven’t been as lucky with our builds/tunes.

Heck, there’s a lot of times I wanted to just give up and switch to a mid mount like everyone else. Which I might do if I destroyer another blower.

 

I agree on some points here.

So to join OldMan... My old setup had 18K miles on the Vortech. Switched to a BP kit and ran that for over 35+K miles (12lbs - 457/410tq ). Same stock motor. Motor never went. I know others with same results if not better too.

Now did OldMan and I get lucky? Perhaps, perhaps not. When you say " your engine was just built very well " thats a confusing statement. We have to assume that ALL engines are built very well. Factory stock engines, torqued to factory same spec. It's not an IF question. I stand with OldMan when he says that Tuning is absolute Key! ( apart from other things that follow of course ) You can have the best setup and the best built motor.. When you add tuning to the equation, the others become obsolete. Setup and Motor wouldn't be my first concern. All I am saying is don't underestimate your tune and who tuned it, even if you gotta drive across country for it. I never skipped this step then and I still never will.

There are a lot of freshie tuners out there. Nowadays people don't shoot for reliability and a good tune anyway. They would rather have a " street tune " from some random guy on Instagram so that the car can make " Pops & Flames " . Quite pathetic but it's where were at.

Just my experience and 2c lol

 

I agree with a lot of what you said and of course tuning is the key here.
The thing I don't agree with being a mechanic is that all engines will be the same, not everyone has the same standards and it's not ONE person make all of these albeit this might not be important for most cases.
If that proverbial "cap" is 400tq and there aren't a large amount of people surpassing that successfully, IMO the ones that do are outliers, granted that CAN be a tuning thing, or something we haven't really discussed which is use case.
We could take 2 fresh engines from Nissan, slap the same parts on them, have the same tune, etc. and then have one be a street car and the other a road race car, I'd bet anything the street car's engine will outlast the other.
Now as someone who has a tune from one of those said IG folks it's NOT that bad for a remote tune, first thing I said is no pops, flames or useless crap "I'm not a child".
I know a lot of the reputable tuners are now doing all of that stuff too because that's "what people want" and if you don't do it you lose business.
Ultimately his tune was miles ahead of another e-tune I had from a pretty well known company so I'm happy..
Tuning (and what you tune with) will absolutely be the main thing keeping thing's together for sure.

 

I thought you knew something about my car, that I did not! LOL

But, you can setup car for roar racing correctly.

My friend John Columbo & Abdullah have made the same power, I think Abdullah made more. John roadraced his car. They are both on here somewhere...