350Now

Let me try this and hopefully FI experts can chime in..

Ignition timing controls how early or late the ignition fires into the compressed combustion chamber. When the compressed mixture inside the cylinder is ignited it takes time for the flame front to reach the piston and the expanding gases to push the piston down. The time it takes can vary depending on throttle opening, volumetric efficiency, compression ratio, combustion chamber shape and I'm sure there are other variables I'm missing.

Let say forget about the variables mentioned above, then with all variable constant the time for the mixture in the combustion chamber to fully burn is the same regardless of engine speed.

At higher RPM, the time available for the burn to happen is less so you have to burn the mixture earlier for it to push the piston down at the right time. (timing advance)

Too much advance and the burning mixture will hit the piston as it rises causing pinging, too little the flame front reach the piston far too late and does not do a good job of pushing the piston down.

Our Z advance timing quite a bit in the higher RPM band by about 25 degrees. (not sure if this is correct 25 degrees)

But in any case, a SC or TT app will force more compressed air into the combustion chamber than a NA app. If we left the timing advance, then we will be burning a denser mixture (bigger bang) as the piston rises possible causing pinging and eventually engine damage. So by retarding timing we are waiting for the piston to go down a little before igniting the mixture.

Hope this helps. This is my limited understanding of the process and hopefully other experts can chime in and correct me as I am also learning as we go along.

slay2k

Hey thanks man, that helps quite a bit. Now the only question becomes... in the factory Greddy TT setup.. does anything retard timing ? I mean, it's supposed to be ready-to-go from the box, right ? So does the eManage do that ? Or something else ?

Also... my friend is going to have his ECU reflashed from TS because he's going to run 8psi on his PE Turbo instead of stock 4.

Does that imply that TS adjusts both fuel AND timing when they reflash the ECU ?

Thanks again..

Guru

iTrader: (9)

Now I have to chime in here. Greddy is vary cautious. They also said the EVO would fry coils and yet I have installed/tuned the E-Manage complete with timing harness on many many EVO's with not one problem. Now also remember you will likely pull more timing at boost buildup and peak torque point than at redline. A lot of you think that pulling timing at high RPM's only is what you need where actually the opposite is true. YOu need more retard at lower RPM's in a different shape than a normal NA timing curve. With SC it is completely different so I think this whole "retard timing at high RPM" myth is due to many of the first forced induction Z's being SC'd with a setup that builds boost as you increase in RPM which means peak boost is realized at redline and also peak power.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Very good answer 350Now....

To answer the question, the eManage, in the current configuration, does not address timing. There is an optional ignition harness than can be purchased, but as mentioned, Greddy has not recommended that people activate the timing capability just yet.

Becuase the Greddy wastegates are set a 5.6psi, and running very rich, timing retard isn't necessary...unless you start turning up the boost. I know that running rich isn't really a substitute for proper timing...but.........

350Now

Thanks Guru.. that is very true since a turbo would realize full power at a lower rpm usually around 3k - 5 k vs. a SC at redline. So in addition, timing retard has to be pulled on a TT app from the mid range on up. Thanks for the info much appreciated.

Slay2k: Your friend with the PE kit using a TS flash will address timing. TS has a program for the PE kit that will address timing and fuel at the 8 psi setting.

swinke

THE TIMING PIECE ALREADY WORKS! IT HAS WORKED SINCE JANUARY! GREDDY U.S. AND KENJI JUST COULD NOT FIGURE IT OUT!

As some people already know I am not a great admirer of the way Greddy treated me during my episode with the E-Manage. In short they were rude to me and would not offer any help to me or the AUTHORIZED VENDOR I bought the E-Manage from. My vendor was not UR. I then called UR and got my solution, in January! Its pretty simple, Ultimate Racing has had this problem solved for months! Long before Greddy's so called LEAD TECH Kenji (who apparently gets all his info from Trust in Japan and really don’t know $hit) had it figured out Ultimate Racing was offering a solution for $50. It’s my understanding that the guys from UR do not post here much because they are not sponsor vendors. That’s a shame because they have a lot of the answers you all seem to need including a great fuel system/injector solution that very few people know about.

Something to consider is the location of the harness. It is in a difficult spot to be worked on. If you mis-crimp or cold solder you will cause resistive connections and possibly cause high load/heat to the circuit. This would easily explain burnt coils. No one will admit to this if they did it and I suspect this to be a contributing factor in the burnt coil issue.

4 months and 4K miles with E-Manage and Ignition harness installed. Not one problem!

My 2¢

350Now

Hey Swinke, I want to know more about the $50 solution. Since UR doesn't post much is there a way you can get the info on what they did? If it's their trade secret then I want to know how to buy it and maybe some instruction on how to install it so I don't screw things up. TIA.

swinke

http://www.ultimate-racing.com/Produ...Index-US.shtml

As far as instruction I can tell you the crimps that come from Greddy to install the wiring are difficult to work with and should be soldered also and finished with shrink tubed. I would not risk my ECU or coils to a crimp that did not close properly or a short. Even with the diagrams and instructions from UR it is difficult to pick the correct wires from the harness wire bundle. I used a dental pick hook and a couple of flashlights. Triple check each wire location and harness connection, it’s easy to get the wrong wire. It’s a lot of work. I took my time, consumed moderate hard beverages, and about 6 hours later I had done it the way I felt it needed to be done. Don’t get in hurry. I have hundreds of hours soldering wire plenum multi-conductor so I would say I have a better than average grip on something like this. Would I recommend a self install to a novice? Probably not. The question that remains is this; do you know anybody who is better qualified than you to do this work? If so let them do it.

All other instructions are available from UR if you buy the E-Manage and tach harness from them.

350Now

Thanks swinke. I agree that the crimp from Greddy / Trust is very bad. I also soldered the e-manage harness and the black rpm harness myself. I didn't shrink wrap though just electrical tape each wires. I will read up on this again thanks for the information.

slay2k

Okay, wait a minute.

Swinke, thank you much for the contribution, first of all. Now, could you clear up what the RPM harness from UR allowed you to do ? Is this a complete timing solution ? You connect the harness and boom, you can run any reasonable psi ?

I'm not even sure how this works... maybe someone can care to explain it to me. How does this help the eManage operate ? I think many people can benefit from this...

350Now

I think timing is control via a RPM sensor. So the higher the rpm the more timing retarded based on your settings of course. Just a guess

jesseenglish

Hope you're wrong, I'd want a boost based timing retard for a TT kit. That would be fine for SC, but not TT.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

We full boost at less than 3K RPM depending on the gear, so i don't think a boost sensitive retard system would be appropriate for this application...would it?

Also, some people say that you only need retarding att he higher RPM's but other claim you need to retard whereever you are making peak torque.

350Now

I'm not sure.. I guess the ideal solution would be to use the Greddy MAP sensor but i'm not sure what UR is using. I need to do more research.

03_ppw350z

iTrader: (4)

how is that ur rpm adapeter any diffrent then the one greddy rprovides? can t you jus wire up the timming harness to the one greddy supplis it connects to all the coils???

mjedens

iTrader: (3)

I first purchased a RPM wiring harness ($50) to simply get a rpm signal to make a shift light work correctly. I then got the emanage , injector wiring harness , 440 injectors, fuel pump, and the Greddy timing wiring harness in a kit from Ultimate Racing. The timing harness came in a Greddy package so I believe Ultimate probably didn't change anything to that particular harness. Installed above and it works as advertised!!

350Now

Hey mjedens, so is the timing just working off a rpm signal? How is your timing set? Thanks in advance.

Mike@Altered

iTrader: (5)

When reprogramming the factory ECU a tuner can set a target a/f ratio, so the car will compensate (to a sertain extent) automatically.

I modified the factory timing maps on my 350Z about six months ago and the car has been running like a champ ever sence. Three/Four months ago or so, I installed and made a Flash for 440cc injectors and forced induction. I have litteraly ran the **** out of my car ever sence and she keeps going and going. The car drives like factory with the 440cc injectors. I'd like to try 500-550cc inectors but don't have a need for them on my Z yet.

All in all, most forced induction 350Z's/G35's I've reprogrammed have picked up decent power with lower timing. Hopefully people with forced induction, or those considering forced induction, will really put value in the power results I'm sharing and adjust their timing sooner than later. =)

Hope this helps,

IceY2K1Max

iTrader: (1)

Let me get this 100% correct, if we have a Greddy eManage, injector harness, and ignition harness, ALL that we need is that $50 RPM harness and URs directions?

03_ppw350z

iTrader: (4)

you probly jus need the directions the greddy kit comes with the rpm adapter already! they wont give you just directions though more likley