mcduck

Well said, Jesse. I'm not going to argue against all of Turbo_Ed's points, many are valid. There are reasons to choose a roots style blower or Turbo over a centrifugal blower if that is your preference, but he's not offering any solutions, just picking apart what is available as a current viable option for FI.

I will debate some of his points because it sounds like Ed has been away from "the real world" for too long and forgotten how things work... or perhaps, like me, he just likes a good debate!... The fact is this is still a relatively new car that aftermarket parts are just beginning to be developed for...

Care to point out where? If you're really that concerned, offer some advice not criticism... really... I'd welcome any information that will make my current set up work better for me. Did you look at the expanded view I posted of the top end of the dyno graph with no smoothing??? The stock dyno was much spikier than the supercharged one and, as Zimbo pointed out in a earlier post, the additional fuel pump makes adjustments at 500rpm intervals creating the sin wave pattern you see in the dyno graph.

Could fuel management be better? Sure, but the software currently available doesn't allow fine tuning more than at 500rpm intervals.

Where the hell did this come from? Who before this was posted said that screw supercharger or TT running similar boost would not perform better than a centrifugal? I know I didn't... on the other hand, at this time, there is not an option in either of those categories that is as affordable and/or puts out the power of the Vortech. I know some of the TT setups have hit better numbers than my car, but I also know the retail cost of installing a TT kit that does this is a lot more than I spent.

I'll take that bet and your money, thank you. This may be true on a car that has been out for a few years, but you won't "COST much the same at the end of the day" with 350Z applications at this time. Further, unless I have missed something, it is very rare to find a Twin Turbo kit, install and tune that costs less than a supercharger kit, install and tune. That's why many people like SC's, similar kit power as the TT for less money. On the otherhand, you can make much more power with TTs if you put additional time and money into it, giving them more potential output than SCs... which is why many people like TTs.

I can... I've driven the car hard for 600+ miles now (as well as a dozen or so runs on the dyno) and have had no reliability, power, or "knock" issues. Check back with me again in 3 months... I'll give you an update...

Umm... the Vortech kit has a HUGE intercooler....

You are possibly correct here... now, show me the kit on the market [B]now[B] that meets this criteria... OOPS! There isn't one...
That's a matter of opinion, I think, and depends on how you drive your car. Strictly race? daily driver? a little of both?

I happen to like the power curve of the centrifugal blower. Could the power be better down low? Sure, however, I do drive my car a lot to meets and just out for fun (non-racing) and it is kind of nice not having stupid amounts of torque and horsepower at very low RPMs. It means I can, in effect, drive the car basically like a stock Z if I choose to.

Now, if I need the power, I just wind up the engine into high RPM range (typically starting with a downshift) and keep the engine there until the power is no longer needed. Do I sacrifice a little off the line power? Yes, but that happens only once and for a very brief period of time. But I guess, based on your points, you must shift your car around 3500rpm back into the low rpm range looking for your car to accelerate faster. Me... I'll wind it to 6000rpm or higher, then shift (keeping it above 4500rpm for the next gear) and hold onto all my high end power.

Perhaps you are correct here and I agree completely with this statement (see, Ed, I'm not total lunkhead! ) There is no doubt there are still great strides to be made with what this car/motor can do. But if people like me, jesseenglish, skidazzle and many others on this board do not take the initial jump on the current offerings, further development to make the kits better will never occur.

Now, Ed, if you don't mind, please help us keep this thread on topic. If you have comments that will allow us to improve this set up, please post them. If you're point is to pick apart the inherent engineering and shortcomings of centrifugal blowers, please start a separate thread for it.

mcduck

mr2fasterthanyou... no offense taken here. Maybe we can look at the timing map and make some adjustments down low as you suggest. As I recall, I am ahead on torque compared to others with the Vortech kit. This is probably mostly due to the Crawford Headers and Hi-Flow cats freeing up my exhaust breathing.

Still, if we can make some improvements, we want to and will try to! If your suggestion bears any fruit for us, I'll let you (and everyone else) know!

mcduck

This is the point that rubbed me the wrong way about Turbo_Ed to start with. It wasn't that he didn't have some valid points... it's that he didn't offer up anything constructive.

By his claim, he's been in the business longer than most of us have been alive (which, based on what I know of the membership here, is probably not true)...

Can't say for sure, I don't know his age, but I'm willing to bet all that I have that the likes of Vortech, ATI Procharger, and the other centrifugal blower guys (as well as Stillen, GReddy, and all other other established FI companies) have a hell of a lot more experience than Ed. Their kits are not perfect, but I'm sure they're designed a lot better and more toward "real world" application than Turbo_Ed could make them.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I guess we will all eagerly await the "Forced Induction Kit by Turbo Ed".

Andy made excellent points regarding the current state of affairs with forced inducton on a 350Z. At this point, right now, there is a finite number of kits. There are other kits coming down the pike, but they are, as of this time, not available for sale. My guess is while you may be well aware of the engineering side of things, your grasp on the economies of scale might be a bit limited, or out of date. The firms producing these kits are not MOPAR or Nissan - they are comparitively small to mid size firms (GReddy is NOT a big company, neither is Vortech). As with any kit designed to achieve "x" result at a certain price point, there are compromises involved. How livable those compromises are to the end user, are up to the end users themselves - the OEM is plagued by this on a day to day basis.

Yes, true standalone would be the way to go for many of these guys running forced induction for a variety of reasons...but it easily adds another $1500- $10,000 (depending on the system) in just PARTS cost to the price of these kits. Install and tuning not being included. For most people here, that is not in the realm of being reasonably affordable (and rightfully so).

As an engineer, I am sure you constantly fight against the bean counters and the marketing people, as well as the production people - no doubt Greddy, Vortech, and every other firm currently engaged in Forced Induction of the 350Z went through these internal debates as well. What the net result was was a variety of kits in a given price range that all do the job reasonably well (much in the way the stock car performs reasonably well from the factory)

blubyu

iTrader: (1)

I might have met up with you a while ago at the Flying Saucer. I met a couple Z guys I believe it was a Wednesday night when me and a few of my Maxima buddies came up there.

mcduck

Yep, that was me. We can probably shoot for this Wednesday if the weather forecast holds out... supposed to hit the 70s on Wednesday. Perfect weather for sitting on the patio with a pint!

12SecZ

congrats mcduck,

You (with the patience of a Saint) deserve it.

I love your driving impressions decription! I will have to be a passnger in my FI car once, I never have. You are correct that we may be missing how fast it really feels because we as drivers are concentrating "on the road." I will have to try that, but who will drive? EJ? Certainly not my wife lol.

Also I wanted to mention that it must be great to have had Doug and his crew work on your car. If I am ever rich I am driving to the Nashville area if I am lying I am dying. They can turn a wrench on my car any time. Congrats again it sounds awesome.

I don't know how you car show guys find the patience to go over every last detail of the car for these shows, I have to admit I keep my interior clean and keep the Crystal Guard shiny but the engine bay and whell wells etc fughetaboutit! I have been to many shows and I am always amazed. Any more trophees?

Lastly, we all know each other here so when a new person comes in with an arrogant tone their message gets missed. I have to admit I quit reading after the second page around the time Chris posted because it just seemed like yet another debate rather than a congratulations. Perhaps the new people will learn something from this when they have lots of knowledge to share because I simply didn't learn anything other than when you zoomed in at a smoothing factor of zero I was VERY impressed, I usually use 5 on mine so it looked good to me, congrats again!

Max

3rdpower

Duck... congrats man - those are awesome numbers.

Turbo Ed: Very good insight be it a bit arrogant I still respect your knowledge on the subject. I personally am looking for solution like most of us on here. PLEASE provide us with information that we can leverage (regarding what's out or what's ideal) for an engine of our calibar. It seems turbos in your mind are the best solution, however, you don't give enough information as to WHAT this system should look like.

Let's use this board as a FORUM for sharing information not downing what many spent countless hours and $$$ trying to perfect. Make Love... Not War...

Much appreciated in advance and McDuck, again, AWESOME numbers!

PhoenixINX

I'm with you...

I'll give it a bath, but these guys AMAZE me with the level of cleanliness for shows.

Waxing the plastic trim in the wheel wells was always impressive.

We'll see to beating the hell out of our cars!

Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

Good points Andy! As you all know, I have the ATI Procharger and I love it. I am putting down about 370 to the wheels. I do not race my car. I don't want a car the spins tire every time I push down the pedal. I don't want a car that jumps awkwardly forward whenever I hit the gas on a small residential street. I don't want a car that will KILL ME if I drive it in the rain on a wet street.

I DO want a car that runs like a daily driver with power available if and when I need it. Whether or not that power is at high or low RPMs, doesn't really matter to me.

Ed, it sounds like you have a ton of knowledge and experience to offer us. We appreciate that. Please be a little more tactful in passing it on to us if you will.

fluidz

well said Dr...........

Acree

iTrader: (29)

all i can say is Thank You McDuck for sharing your Bad@ss car with all of us and i am sorry you have to deal with doushebags. i would do ANYTHING to have your car. i admire it very much so. God Bless and wear a seat belt. lol

mcduck

Well, I know I haven't said it yet, so thank you everyone for the accolades. I must admit, we hit some disappointing NA number on our way to where my car is now. In hindsight, I'm very happy the work on my car was done in the phases it was. I really think the groundwork for extra horsepower I'm seeing now was laid way back when we installed cams, headers, etc back in October.

Max...
Doug actually did not do the installs on my car, but he did offer the mechanic that did pointers over the phone on numerous occasions! He'll actually be seeing the car for the first time in person in about two weeks. I can't wait to see his reaction. His parts really are the real deal. With each one I have added, I have felt improvement to my car's performance.

Hmm... I just realized something... anyone have a Brickyard 350Z with the Stillen supercharger on it? If we can find one, we could have Supercharger Shootout II - Brickyard Challenge at ZDayZ!

DrBonz and I will already be there in our Bricks. Just think... in one spot... two Brickyards... two superchargers... and 80+ coats of Zaino! See light actually bend as it passes between our two cars!!!

bigdaddy

iTrader: (3)

andy,

you have truly made leaps and bounds improving your car since that little meet we had at jordan lake. i cannot wait to see your car up at the dragon, where i am sure you will be the center of attention.

we all thank you for the work you have done for our little z community.

sean

Turbo Ed

mcduck,( and all)
thanks for the responses!!

please remember why I originally posted. It was because everyone was going on about what a great result was demonstrated by the posted power curves. Without repeating myself, it wasn't and all most here have done is attempt to justify WHY it wasn't.

Now, actually, I did not need to read most of them, as my original post covered most of it any way, however the justifications can be summerised as follows.

1) The engine management is primitive, so what do I expect?

2) It's a centrifugal blower, so what do I expect?

3) It's much cheaper than any of the current alternatives, so what do I expect?

4) Yeah, its got a crappy torque curve, however, I LIKE it like that. ( Primarily because I cannot drive a Hi-Po car in the wet, now THAT guy should have tried a Hemi Cuda on cross plies!)

And so on!!! Attempted JUSTIFICATIONS!!

So, a lot of you would like me to say what I would do. Well, if you look at a couple of the other threads, you will see I have been investigating building my own forced induction package and no, not for sale to ANYONE else!!
I neither need nor want to do anything like that!! Simply for my own interest, that's all. In fact out in my own garage, (admittedly, well equipped), so how "REAL WORLD" is that?!!

AS I HAVE DONE ON A VARIETY OF CARS OVER THE YEARS, GOING BACK TO THE SIXTIES!!!!

Not real world, AH!! You guys have NO IDEA as to the real world!! Buy a box of bits and pay a shop to install them. What a Joke!

Nearly as big a joke as why I came on this board in the first place. I actually thought I might learn something new, from all you young computor "wizz kids"!! Seems like you are all making the same mistakes we were making almost 40 years ago, but with badly designed "black boxes", instead of misapplied carburettors.

However, I'll take mcduck's bet, at least in the ether!!

Why don't you start by providing a TRUE outline of your costs to date, as a baseline?? !! ( Including a TRUE cost of attempting to make that poor excuse for engine management function somewhat correctly)

I'll then offer a couple of alternatives, for those with some gumption and fabricating skills.

REAL WORLD, indeed!!!!!!

Ed

infidsg35

iTrader: (2)

Well here is a guy who seems to know a few thing but hasnt proved ANYTHING!!! Like you said over and over the kit out now suck... When we ask you what would you do diffrent all you can say is

"Well, if you look at a couple of the other threads, you will see I have been investigating building my own forced induction package and no, not for sale to ANYONE else!!
I neither need nor want to do anything like that!! Simply for my own interest, that's all. In fact out in my own garage, (admittedly, well equipped), so how "REAL WORLD" is that?!!"

So your saying if I order a box of parts get someone else to install them cause I dont have time or maybe the tools or maybe just the know how that the kit is a JOKE.. I think you smoked a lil toooooo much back then in the 60's and its realy messing up your brain.. Who gives a **** about "real world" good for you and all you projects you done over the years. Nobody cares..

Im sorry for this negitive post but this guy is useless. Im done have a nice day..

Juztin

iTrader: (9)

Ed, your bring up some interesting points of course and I also value and listen to your input.

I'll probably end up going the Centrigual SC route in about a a year and a half or so. My reason falls to the almighty dollar. It's definately cheaper than going turbo. No matter what kind of performance, or torque is available from a kit, the dollar is what drives everyone. I've havent had a chance to really visit the board in quite a while, and it's amazing just how much is already out now! The APS system look incredible, but of course I'd like to see more specs on the ball bearing turbo's they're using. But 11 second car from a bolt on kit sounds mighty impressive.

Now regarding the SC route, I'm sure Mcduck knew what he was doing and understood the power curve, management, etc for this setup. Thanks for stating the facts to the people who may not know much about the Centrifugal SC's and their con's. There aint no way around it though, an F/I Z kiks a N/A Z's ****.

Regardless if it's *only 400rwhp up top, in a race situation, your gonna be in the power band generating the ~400rwhp. Even if a car can get the jump on you from torque, if you have more hp up top, guess whose gonna win the speed contest. You can also take into account re-gearing the differential, adding a lighter flywheel, & tire diameter to offset the lack of huge torque down low. Launch quickness from torque only goes so far. Now if you run a 400rwhp vortech/ati Z against say APS TT Z, the aps will still walk all over the other, but in that case, you gotta pay to play.

I am settling on the SC route to get me by for a few years with some good power, WHILE I build a stroked TT engine to later swap in. Cause spending 15-20,000 dollars on the engine alone I will build will take a few years as it's also costs money to just live

--j2

mcduck

Turbo_Ed...

If you can build a FI kit from scratch (buying components and doing custom fabricated install and tuning) yourself. I am honestly impressed. As you probably know, most of us can't which is where the kit market comes in. I think a lot of us know the concepts and theoretical operation of such devices, but specific know-how to build one from components is a lot rarer.

I don't feel it is anyone's business the total figures on what I spent for what on my car. I will say the latest addition, the Vortech SC cost a good bit under $7000 to put in and get to the current state. Please note that I am a consumer, so I get no discount parts or rates on these things. Don't compare dealer prices to this as that would not be a fair comparison. The raw kit install took me from 260rwhp to around 340rwhp. Then, for $650 (a portion of the $7000), the Split Second box was tweaked to tune the car from 340rwhp to 420rwhp.

I'll be interested to see your breakdown of how to build a Twin Turbo kit for less than this. Most TT kits out there now cost around $7K just for the kit. If you can build one from scratch and have it installed and tuned for less, I bet you could make a lot of money selling them. As you perform your calculations, be sure to include what you would charge for your time (at an hourly rate) to build and install your custom kit on someone else's car. For your own car, your time may be free, but for others, I'm sure it would cost.

Look forward to seeing your post!

mcduck

Not all went well with getting my supercharger to its final state. See this thread...

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....597#post770597

... for more information on my bad experience with the tuning shop.

little_rod

Well, we argue with the way the info was presented, but the point blank of the matter is that Ed is right about a lot of things. Great setup mcduck, love to have it on my car. When comparing power curves for a turbo and an SC, it is just not fair for the SC cause it doesn't make max boost anywhere near as early as the turbo. Now the SC is cheaper, but that is the trade off.

I will say this, though, looking at everything that mcduck does have on his car, he probably could have gotten the turbo for that cost. I mean, it depends on what you include in your whole system, manifolds are included with a turbo of course, and the Crawford headers cost like $1200 alone so adding that to the SC with labor starts to get into turbo territory. Different people have different goals and situations with their car, and that needs to be addressed anytime you are dealing with an individual's decision with his mods.

Debating on the power curves of SCs vs turbos shouldn't be done in a trend that a guy is presenting his great brand new setup though.