SuperCharger Vs. Turbo...
05-02-2004, 11:54 AM
#41
Re: Heat...
Originally posted by alpine
That's good that we brought this subject back up, how does the ambient air temperature affect either of these technologies?
I'm souther california, and it's going to be 90-115 for the next 5 months.
I seem to recall there being a concern with outside temperature when using FI.
This may be under extreme conditions or something, maybe you have to lay off the pedal, I don't know.
What do you have to consider when you have FI and these temperatures outside the car both normal and agrresive driving?
thanks
That's good that we brought this subject back up, how does the ambient air temperature affect either of these technologies?
I'm souther california, and it's going to be 90-115 for the next 5 months.
I seem to recall there being a concern with outside temperature when using FI.
This may be under extreme conditions or something, maybe you have to lay off the pedal, I don't know.
What do you have to consider when you have FI and these temperatures outside the car both normal and agrresive driving?
thanks
I drove my car through the 107degree scortcher we had last week, and she peformed marvelously. On the freeway, I noticed no difference in performance. She did seem a tad sluggish when pulling awat for a full stop. But I drove the car the same way, and I didnt need to take any special precautions. The coolant needle didnt even budge. Oil temp guage would have been nice to have...so I can't really comment on the oil temp.
05-02-2004, 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by gq_model_626
Wow...I thought we had beaten this topic to death...but great posts. I am always willing to throw in my .02.
Wow...I thought we had beaten this topic to death...but great posts. I am always willing to throw in my .02.
Thanks for your time and input, I know some of it is a drag, but it is sincerely appreciated and valued by myself, and I'm sure others, I'm not just requesting continued pissing matches
Originally posted by gq_model_626
Joe, I think you rememeber me. I'm Sharif...we met at the Peformance Nissan back in Jan when I was in the process of buying my first mod for the car...a popchager!!
Joe, I think you rememeber me. I'm Sharif...we met at the Peformance Nissan back in Jan when I was in the process of buying my first mod for the car...a popchager!!
I did end up giving a ride to Splurt that day anyways, he loved the clutch/flywheel combo I ended up with.
Quite the jump there from Pop Charger to TT?
nice...
Originally posted by gq_model_626
Then we met again at the Strict Dyno in Reseda where your car turned a stunning 253whp (i think) with just a Typhoon cold air thingy, and a grounding kit. Mine turned a measly 227whp with the Popcharger.
Then we met again at the Strict Dyno in Reseda where your car turned a stunning 253whp (i think) with just a Typhoon cold air thingy, and a grounding kit.
Mine turned a measly 227whp with the Popcharger.
Originally posted by gq_model_626
OK, I was scanning through the posts...and I wanted to clarify a couple of points...and common misconceptions about the drawbacks/benifits of SC vs. TT.
1) The Greddy TT has virtually no turbo lag whatsoever. I have full boost at 2.5K, depending on the gear, and my dynos are showing 300ft/lbs of torque at about 3000 rpm! Even at 2400rpm, I have about 280lbs/torque. This TT kit is a torque monster at all RPM's, and the power is INSTANTANOUS. Don't believe the hype about TT having bad turbo lag. This isn't a high reving honda or acura. With the natural torque of the 350Z, and the higher compression motor, turbo lag is virtually eliminated on both the PE kits and the Greddy Kit. To me...this is the single biggest advantage of the TT kits vs. SC. Although they both have similar peak HP numbers, the TT kit has tons more area under the crurve, and more TRQ across the board. This is what makes a car FUN to drive on the street.
OK, I was scanning through the posts...and I wanted to clarify a couple of points...and common misconceptions about the drawbacks/benifits of SC vs. TT.
1) The Greddy TT has virtually no turbo lag whatsoever. I have full boost at 2.5K, depending on the gear, and my dynos are showing 300ft/lbs of torque at about 3000 rpm! Even at 2400rpm, I have about 280lbs/torque. This TT kit is a torque monster at all RPM's, and the power is INSTANTANOUS. Don't believe the hype about TT having bad turbo lag. This isn't a high reving honda or acura. With the natural torque of the 350Z, and the higher compression motor, turbo lag is virtually eliminated on both the PE kits and the Greddy Kit. To me...this is the single biggest advantage of the TT kits vs. SC. Although they both have similar peak HP numbers, the TT kit has tons more area under the crurve, and more TRQ across the board. This is what makes a car FUN to drive on the street.
Originally posted by gq_model_626
Here is a link to my dyno. Oh, ignore the A/F...this is what happens when you loose the RPM singal to the eManage...woooops. No pinging though...thank GOD.
http://www.savepic.com/is.php?i=5360...d_Evo2_Ext.jpg
Here is a link to my dyno. Oh, ignore the A/F...this is what happens when you loose the RPM singal to the eManage...woooops.
No pinging though...thank GOD.http://www.savepic.com/is.php?i=5360...d_Evo2_Ext.jpg
Originally posted by gq_model_626
2) SC's are not more reliable that TT's. I would clasify them as similar in terms of reliabilty. SC's tend to go through belts relatively quickly, especially in the 400whp+ range. I know the ATI's were snapping belts more readily than the Vortech....but still be prepared to have a supply of very expensive belts...depending on what SC kit you choose. The belts tend to need adjusting quite frequently as well, and under the hood dust is sometimes in issue. The SC and TT have their own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to reliability. SC's have MUCH simplier installation, and reversabily to stock. TT's have more complex pumping, costs, and heat issues. But a properly installed, tuned, cooled, and oil changed TT kit can last for the life of the car...no problem. Personally, the only thing I do to maintain my turbo is change the oil synthetic every 3000miles, and let the car idle for 1.5minutes at shutdown via turbo timer. I also installed a BOV to prevent damaging compressor surge
2) SC's are not more reliable that TT's. I would clasify them as similar in terms of reliabilty. SC's tend to go through belts relatively quickly, especially in the 400whp+ range. I know the ATI's were snapping belts more readily than the Vortech....but still be prepared to have a supply of very expensive belts...depending on what SC kit you choose. The belts tend to need adjusting quite frequently as well, and under the hood dust is sometimes in issue. The SC and TT have their own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to reliability. SC's have MUCH simplier installation, and reversabily to stock. TT's have more complex pumping, costs, and heat issues. But a properly installed, tuned, cooled, and oil changed TT kit can last for the life of the car...no problem. Personally, the only thing I do to maintain my turbo is change the oil synthetic every 3000miles, and let the car idle for 1.5minutes at shutdown via turbo timer. I also installed a BOV to prevent damaging compressor surge
Where did you get your TT setup done?
What boost are you typically running?
What about outside temperature?
Have you tracked your car yet? Have any performance numbers/times?
How about street kills?
Originally posted by gq_model_626
3) TT gives you more tuning options. To change boost on a SC, you need to change to different pullies...and lets just say...they are not that wasy to swap out. With a TT, a simle boost controller does the job. The eManage unit that comes with the TT hit is highly programmable, and incredibly accurate, without the drawbacks of an AFC or a stand-alone. With the eManage, and Profec e-01 (boost controller/eManage programmer), you can do several things...here is a short-list:
a) add injector duty cycle
b) control larger injectors up to 150% BIGGER than stock. The neat thing is the eManage will scale them down at cruise and dile so your car will start and cruise normally.
c) retard timing (via $30 timing harness and diodes). This can be boost/RPM based, or MAF Voltage/RPM based. Very cool!
d) Bypass the MAF sensor and convert to MAP based system
e) run sub-injectors
f) clamp MAF voltage to elimate limp modes at high boost levels
g) superb data-logging cabilities.
h) Store 3 different ignition/fuel/timing maps on the SD card, and run those maps based on a different boost setttings. Example, I could have a 5psi, 7psi, and 8.5psi map...and load them on the go.
3) TT gives you more tuning options. To change boost on a SC, you need to change to different pullies...and lets just say...they are not that wasy to swap out. With a TT, a simle boost controller does the job. The eManage unit that comes with the TT hit is highly programmable, and incredibly accurate, without the drawbacks of an AFC or a stand-alone. With the eManage, and Profec e-01 (boost controller/eManage programmer), you can do several things...here is a short-list:
a) add injector duty cycle
b) control larger injectors up to 150% BIGGER than stock. The neat thing is the eManage will scale them down at cruise and dile so your car will start and cruise normally.
c) retard timing (via $30 timing harness and diodes). This can be boost/RPM based, or MAF Voltage/RPM based. Very cool!
d) Bypass the MAF sensor and convert to MAP based system
e) run sub-injectors
f) clamp MAF voltage to elimate limp modes at high boost levels
g) superb data-logging cabilities.
h) Store 3 different ignition/fuel/timing maps on the SD card, and run those maps based on a different boost setttings. Example, I could have a 5psi, 7psi, and 8.5psi map...and load them on the go.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gq_model_626
[B]
4) To me, the ONLY big disadvantage of the TT kit is costs. as mentioned, the kit is about $2000 more than the Vortech. I have seen Vortechs for very close to $4000, and Greddy kits for $6000. Labor is also about $500-$1000 more than a typical Vortech installation.
I've already mentioned this, 1/2K difference is not going to persuade or deter me from either FI package. However with your setup, there is more of a difference than 2K isn't there?
Originally posted by gq_model_626
In every performance and upgradability measure, the TT beats the SC. Not trying to sound like a TT snob.. All F/I cars of tons of fun, it really comes down to personal preferene, and your budget.
In every performance and upgradability measure, the TT beats the SC. Not trying to sound like a TT snob..
All F/I cars of tons of fun, it really comes down to personal preferene, and your budget.You'll be hearing from me.
Joe
05-02-2004, 12:15 PM
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Re: Re: Heat...
Originally posted by gq_model_626
I drove my car through the 107degree scortcher we had last week, and she peformed marvelously. On the freeway, I noticed no difference in performance. She did seem a tad sluggish when pulling awat for a full stop. But I drove the car the same way, and I didnt need to take any special precautions. The coolant needle didnt even budge. Oil temp guage would have been nice to have...so I can't really comment on the oil temp.
I drove my car through the 107degree scortcher we had last week, and she peformed marvelously. On the freeway, I noticed no difference in performance. She did seem a tad sluggish when pulling awat for a full stop. But I drove the car the same way, and I didnt need to take any special precautions. The coolant needle didnt even budge. Oil temp guage would have been nice to have...so I can't really comment on the oil temp.
I realize you didn't take any precautions, but you are "supposed" to, aren't you?
thanks,
05-02-2004, 02:35 PM
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Re: Heat...
Originally posted by alpine
That's good that we brought this subject back up, how does the ambient air temperature affect either of these technologies?
I'm souther california, and it's going to be 90-115 for the next 5 months.
I seem to recall there being a concern with outside temperature when using FI.
This may be under extreme conditions or something, maybe you have to lay off the pedal, I don't know.
What do you have to consider when you have FI and these temperatures outside the car both normal and agrresive driving?
thanks
That's good that we brought this subject back up, how does the ambient air temperature affect either of these technologies?
I'm souther california, and it's going to be 90-115 for the next 5 months.
I seem to recall there being a concern with outside temperature when using FI.
This may be under extreme conditions or something, maybe you have to lay off the pedal, I don't know.
What do you have to consider when you have FI and these temperatures outside the car both normal and agrresive driving?
thanks
Sorry about the confusion, I am talking about the compressed air temperatute (intake manifold air temperature not ambient air temperature) on a non intercooled positive displacement S/C.
I am not a big fan unintercooled positive displacement S/C's which operate in high ambient temperature conditions, as the power power keeps falling away.
Peter
APS
05-02-2004, 02:48 PM
#45
TT install was done at Dynamic Autosports in lake Forest. Good people, and they are very knowledgable about aftermarket Turbo kits. Street Image can also do the job in Baldwin Park.
I am running 6psi of boost which is about 360whp and 335lbs/foot. I am stilling waiting for a new Walbro255 fuel pump and I need to install my ignition timing harness before boosting more. With the stock fuel pump, the injectors hit 100% duty cycle at about 5500rpm or so. I suspect I will stop at 8-8.5psi which should be good for a clean 400-415whp. The Greddy kit is fine out of the box up to 6psi....then certain limitations starting kicking in...namely timing and fuel.
No sure what you wanted to know about "outside temp". The car definately feels a bit stronger in the cooler/damp air...such as by the beach, or early morning.
No Track numbers yet....
My only street kill was a stockish looking Evo....beat him from 60-100mph on the roll...by about 3-4 car lengths....he was very surprised.
Oh, and Joe...what is this stuff about a trans fluid temp gauge? You have a 6-speed...so why the heck would you want that? There is no reason for it. if you wanna go gauge crazy......the "extra" guages I would consider are oil temp, coolant temp, fuel pressure, egt. Manditory guages in my opinion are boost and A/F. Also note that if you get the Profec e-01, you can input up to 10 channels of information from different sensors. Althgouh you can only display three at a time. This would eliminate the need to have an actual physical guage for oil/coolant, and other things that arent mission critical. You can by the temp sensors, and then run the wire to the Profec and display the output there...pretty neat egh?
I am running 6psi of boost which is about 360whp and 335lbs/foot. I am stilling waiting for a new Walbro255 fuel pump and I need to install my ignition timing harness before boosting more. With the stock fuel pump, the injectors hit 100% duty cycle at about 5500rpm or so. I suspect I will stop at 8-8.5psi which should be good for a clean 400-415whp. The Greddy kit is fine out of the box up to 6psi....then certain limitations starting kicking in...namely timing and fuel.
No sure what you wanted to know about "outside temp". The car definately feels a bit stronger in the cooler/damp air...such as by the beach, or early morning.
No Track numbers yet....
My only street kill was a stockish looking Evo....beat him from 60-100mph on the roll...by about 3-4 car lengths....he was very surprised.
Oh, and Joe...what is this stuff about a trans fluid temp gauge? You have a 6-speed...so why the heck would you want that? There is no reason for it. if you wanna go gauge crazy......the "extra" guages I would consider are oil temp, coolant temp, fuel pressure, egt. Manditory guages in my opinion are boost and A/F. Also note that if you get the Profec e-01, you can input up to 10 channels of information from different sensors. Althgouh you can only display three at a time. This would eliminate the need to have an actual physical guage for oil/coolant, and other things that arent mission critical. You can by the temp sensors, and then run the wire to the Profec and display the output there...pretty neat egh?
05-02-2004, 07:59 PM
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heat
Ahhh brother alpine you're almost healed now the only thing left is to accept Turbo as your saviour!!!!
Heat of course is what you are fighting against on the roots blower on the stillen stage two or three S/C the intercooler can only over come so much heat untill it is overwhelmed.
On the tt setup however you have alot less heat to over come for example the shop down here building the greddy twin turbo car with forged internals will be running 650 rwhp and will not have to worry about heat issue as the intercooler supplied with the greddy kit will be more than enough.
From what i under stand the stillen intercooled s/c still runs so hot you can cook a full out jimmy dean breakfast on it. Now you can only fit so big of an intercooler on the 350z without major modifications.
Im glad GQ jumped in here and clarified the lag issue.
You have to factor in that when you run 2 smaller turbos lag is almost non exsistant. with 280lss of tourque at 2500rpm's you are never going to be starving for power.
My chipped twin turbo S4 was the same way the turbos began to spool hard at 2500 rpm so when i launched this car it had full power right away and just pulled harder and harder all the way to 150mph!!!
the only time i ever had lag is if i was driving normaly for example just pulled away from a stop normally and then flored it from about 1000rpm -2000 rpm there wasnt any boost so that would be the only time ever i would have any lag ....keep in mind if i didnt want lag i didnt have to have it by the way you launch the car.
Now alpine you have to factor in human nature... we would all be hapy with a supercharged car...then as time goes on and we get used to the new power we start to wonder ...hmm i wonder what would happen if we get the boost up to 8 lbs...then we run the car at 8lbs boost and love it ....then as time go on just like before we start to wonder how to get more power and on and on... everybody does it ..no mater what you say as time goes on you always want more...with the S/C you are limited....with the GREAT Almighty Turbo the possibilities are endless!!!
"And on the 8th day he created Twin Ball Bearing Turbos..and on the 9th day he rests" Garrett 3:14
Heat of course is what you are fighting against on the roots blower on the stillen stage two or three S/C the intercooler can only over come so much heat untill it is overwhelmed.
On the tt setup however you have alot less heat to over come for example the shop down here building the greddy twin turbo car with forged internals will be running 650 rwhp and will not have to worry about heat issue as the intercooler supplied with the greddy kit will be more than enough.
From what i under stand the stillen intercooled s/c still runs so hot you can cook a full out jimmy dean breakfast on it. Now you can only fit so big of an intercooler on the 350z without major modifications.
Im glad GQ jumped in here and clarified the lag issue.
You have to factor in that when you run 2 smaller turbos lag is almost non exsistant. with 280lss of tourque at 2500rpm's you are never going to be starving for power.
My chipped twin turbo S4 was the same way the turbos began to spool hard at 2500 rpm so when i launched this car it had full power right away and just pulled harder and harder all the way to 150mph!!!
the only time i ever had lag is if i was driving normaly for example just pulled away from a stop normally and then flored it from about 1000rpm -2000 rpm there wasnt any boost so that would be the only time ever i would have any lag ....keep in mind if i didnt want lag i didnt have to have it by the way you launch the car.
Now alpine you have to factor in human nature... we would all be hapy with a supercharged car...then as time goes on and we get used to the new power we start to wonder ...hmm i wonder what would happen if we get the boost up to 8 lbs...then we run the car at 8lbs boost and love it ....then as time go on just like before we start to wonder how to get more power and on and on... everybody does it ..no mater what you say as time goes on you always want more...with the S/C you are limited....with the GREAT Almighty Turbo the possibilities are endless!!!
"And on the 8th day he created Twin Ball Bearing Turbos..and on the 9th day he rests" Garrett 3:14
05-03-2004, 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by alpine
I'm sure you have elsewhere, I've just been "busy" and haven't had the time to "sift" through the crap, and pick out the worthwhile info.
Thanks for your time and input, I know some of it is a drag, but it is sincerely appreciated and valued by myself, and I'm sure others, I'm not just requesting continued pissing matches.
I'm sure you have elsewhere, I've just been "busy" and haven't had the time to "sift" through the crap, and pick out the worthwhile info.
Thanks for your time and input, I know some of it is a drag, but it is sincerely appreciated and valued by myself, and I'm sure others, I'm not just requesting continued pissing matches.
I've been reading along and I figured I would chime in that I am appreciative of all this knowledge as well.
I'm beginning to see the light here, as Squill would say. Thanks again Sharif!
You'll be hearing from me.
Joe
Quick Summary of my current notions (which may be incorrect):
S/C - simpler and safer, cheaper, less tuning but there is a performance ceiling
Turbo - complicated and therefore more risky, lots of tuning, expensive but performance is limitless!
05-03-2004, 06:37 AM
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Originally posted by gq_626
TT install was done at Dynamic Autosports in lake Forest. Good people, and they are very knowledgable about aftermarket Turbo kits. Street Image can also do the job in Baldwin Park.
I am running 6psi of boost which is about 360whp and 335lbs/foot. I am stilling waiting for a new Walbro255 fuel pump and I need to install my ignition timing harness before boosting more. With the stock fuel pump, the injectors hit 100% duty cycle at about 5500rpm or so. I suspect I will stop at 8-8.5psi which should be good for a clean 400-415whp. The Greddy kit is fine out of the box up to 6psi....then certain limitations starting kicking in...namely timing and fuel.
No sure what you wanted to know about "outside temp". The car definately feels a bit stronger in the cooler/damp air...such as by the beach, or early morning.
No Track numbers yet....
My only street kill was a stockish looking Evo....beat him from 60-100mph on the roll...by about 3-4 car lengths....he was very surprised.
Oh, and Joe...what is this stuff about a trans fluid temp gauge? You have a 6-speed...so why the heck would you want that? There is no reason for it. if you wanna go gauge crazy......the "extra" guages I would consider are oil temp, coolant temp, fuel pressure, egt. Manditory guages in my opinion are boost and A/F. Also note that if you get the Profec e-01, you can input up to 10 channels of information from different sensors. Althgouh you can only display three at a time. This would eliminate the need to have an actual physical guage for oil/coolant, and other things that arent mission critical. You can by the temp sensors, and then run the wire to the Profec and display the output there...pretty neat egh?
TT install was done at Dynamic Autosports in lake Forest. Good people, and they are very knowledgable about aftermarket Turbo kits. Street Image can also do the job in Baldwin Park.
I am running 6psi of boost which is about 360whp and 335lbs/foot. I am stilling waiting for a new Walbro255 fuel pump and I need to install my ignition timing harness before boosting more. With the stock fuel pump, the injectors hit 100% duty cycle at about 5500rpm or so. I suspect I will stop at 8-8.5psi which should be good for a clean 400-415whp. The Greddy kit is fine out of the box up to 6psi....then certain limitations starting kicking in...namely timing and fuel.
No sure what you wanted to know about "outside temp". The car definately feels a bit stronger in the cooler/damp air...such as by the beach, or early morning.
No Track numbers yet....
My only street kill was a stockish looking Evo....beat him from 60-100mph on the roll...by about 3-4 car lengths....he was very surprised.
Oh, and Joe...what is this stuff about a trans fluid temp gauge? You have a 6-speed...so why the heck would you want that? There is no reason for it. if you wanna go gauge crazy......the "extra" guages I would consider are oil temp, coolant temp, fuel pressure, egt. Manditory guages in my opinion are boost and A/F. Also note that if you get the Profec e-01, you can input up to 10 channels of information from different sensors. Althgouh you can only display three at a time. This would eliminate the need to have an actual physical guage for oil/coolant, and other things that arent mission critical. You can by the temp sensors, and then run the wire to the Profec and display the output there...pretty neat egh?
Thanks Sharif! and Squill
Posted elsewhere on the board:
Great posts, thanks for the info & time. last night... Ahem, this morning sometime between 1-3Am I saw Hot rodding televison, (american stuff, I know, but that's where I came from) and those guys were all over turbo, they shut out SC, and between the info I've picked up lately, and what I saw on the show, I'm going TT!
I'm converted! I'm converted!...
05-03-2004, 06:43 AM
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Originally posted by Sinurgy
Hey Joe
I've been reading along and I figured I would chime in that I am appreciative of all this knowledge as well.
Hey Joe
I've been reading along and I figured I would chime in that I am appreciative of all this knowledge as well.
I came into this thread thinking S/C all the way. I must admit I'm seeing a bit of light as well. However, one thing I'm concerned about that I don't think has been addressed is reliability. When I talk reliability I don't mean the life of the turbo or s/c itself, I mean the life of my engine. The turbo setups just seem so much more complicated and there is just that much more to go wrong. I don't want to have to worry about constant tweaking, tuning, etc. just to keep everything running smoothly. The less I have to see my tuner shop the happier I would be. That still seems to be the main attraction to the S/C for me. It seems much more like a "set and forget" FI solution than the turbo. Well that plus from what I've read so far, it's also about $3K cheaper (including install).[/B][/QUOTE]
I actually had/have the same thoughts, regarding engine life, wear/tear. That is what I mentioned about "turbos hitting harder" and needing more attention.
I never thought the need constant tuning, but so long as everythinhg looks good, sounds good, it should be fine. if you are out there hammering it several times daily & tracking it, then yes it will need more attention, but its not like chaning your oil, that you're out 2-3 hours tuning your turbos, every 3K under normal conditions.
Originally posted by Sinurgy
Quick Summary of my current notions (which may be incorrect):
S/C - simpler and safer, cheaper, less tuning but there is a performance ceiling
Turbo - complicated and therefore more risky, lots of tuning, expensive but performance is limitless!
Quick Summary of my current notions (which may be incorrect):
S/C - simpler and safer, cheaper, less tuning but there is a performance ceiling
Turbo - complicated and therefore more risky, lots of tuning, expensive but performance is limitless!
if you can drive the car normally in 100+ weather and there are no additional precautions, and the LAg is nearly non-existant, I'm in
05-03-2004, 06:44 AM
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Re: heat
Originally posted by SQUILL
Ahhh brother alpine you're almost healed now the only thing left is to accept Turbo as your saviour!!!!
Heat of course is what you are fighting against on the roots blower on the stillen stage two or three S/C the intercooler can only over come so much heat untill it is overwhelmed.
On the tt setup however you have alot less heat to over come for example the shop down here building the greddy twin turbo car with forged internals will be running 650 rwhp and will not have to worry about heat issue as the intercooler supplied with the greddy kit will be more than enough.
From what i under stand the stillen intercooled s/c still runs so hot you can cook a full out jimmy dean breakfast on it. Now you can only fit so big of an intercooler on the 350z without major modifications.
Im glad GQ jumped in here and clarified the lag issue.
You have to factor in that when you run 2 smaller turbos lag is almost non exsistant. with 280lss of tourque at 2500rpm's you are never going to be starving for power.
My chipped twin turbo S4 was the same way the turbos began to spool hard at 2500 rpm so when i launched this car it had full power right away and just pulled harder and harder all the way to 150mph!!!
the only time i ever had lag is if i was driving normaly for example just pulled away from a stop normally and then flored it from about 1000rpm -2000 rpm there wasnt any boost so that would be the only time ever i would have any lag ....keep in mind if i didnt want lag i didnt have to have it by the way you launch the car.
Now alpine you have to factor in human nature... we would all be hapy with a supercharged car...then as time goes on and we get used to the new power we start to wonder ...hmm i wonder what would happen if we get the boost up to 8 lbs...then we run the car at 8lbs boost and love it ....then as time go on just like before we start to wonder how to get more power and on and on... everybody does it ..no mater what you say as time goes on you always want more...with the S/C you are limited....with the GREAT Almighty Turbo the possibilities are endless!!!
"And on the 8th day he created Twin Ball Bearing Turbos..and on the 9th day he rests" Garrett 3:14
Ahhh brother alpine you're almost healed now the only thing left is to accept Turbo as your saviour!!!!
Heat of course is what you are fighting against on the roots blower on the stillen stage two or three S/C the intercooler can only over come so much heat untill it is overwhelmed.
On the tt setup however you have alot less heat to over come for example the shop down here building the greddy twin turbo car with forged internals will be running 650 rwhp and will not have to worry about heat issue as the intercooler supplied with the greddy kit will be more than enough.
From what i under stand the stillen intercooled s/c still runs so hot you can cook a full out jimmy dean breakfast on it. Now you can only fit so big of an intercooler on the 350z without major modifications.
Im glad GQ jumped in here and clarified the lag issue.
You have to factor in that when you run 2 smaller turbos lag is almost non exsistant. with 280lss of tourque at 2500rpm's you are never going to be starving for power.
My chipped twin turbo S4 was the same way the turbos began to spool hard at 2500 rpm so when i launched this car it had full power right away and just pulled harder and harder all the way to 150mph!!!
the only time i ever had lag is if i was driving normaly for example just pulled away from a stop normally and then flored it from about 1000rpm -2000 rpm there wasnt any boost so that would be the only time ever i would have any lag ....keep in mind if i didnt want lag i didnt have to have it by the way you launch the car.
Now alpine you have to factor in human nature... we would all be hapy with a supercharged car...then as time goes on and we get used to the new power we start to wonder ...hmm i wonder what would happen if we get the boost up to 8 lbs...then we run the car at 8lbs boost and love it ....then as time go on just like before we start to wonder how to get more power and on and on... everybody does it ..no mater what you say as time goes on you always want more...with the S/C you are limited....with the GREAT Almighty Turbo the possibilities are endless!!!
"And on the 8th day he created Twin Ball Bearing Turbos..and on the 9th day he rests" Garrett 3:14
05-03-2004, 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by gq_626
TT install was done at Dynamic Autosports in lake Forest. Good people, and they are very knowledgable about aftermarket Turbo kits. Street Image can also do the job in Baldwin Park.
TT install was done at Dynamic Autosports in lake Forest. Good people, and they are very knowledgable about aftermarket Turbo kits. Street Image can also do the job in Baldwin Park.
Originally posted by gq_626
Oh, and Joe...what is this stuff about a trans fluid temp gauge? You have a 6-speed...so why the heck would you want that? There is no reason for it. if you wanna go gauge crazy......the "extra" guages I would consider are oil temp, coolant temp, fuel pressure, egt.
Oh, and Joe...what is this stuff about a trans fluid temp gauge? You have a 6-speed...so why the heck would you want that? There is no reason for it. if you wanna go gauge crazy......the "extra" guages I would consider are oil temp, coolant temp, fuel pressure, egt.
Do you have the oil cooler on your car? I was already thinking about doing that, before FI due to my tracking the car, I am running Synthetic already, but I figure it can't hurt and with FI i'll need it more.
What do you know about engine oil temp in this scenario? Also does the TT has its own oil supply right?
I'd be doing the same as you later in regards to fuel improvements, plus I would change the oil pump as well.
05-03-2004, 09:03 AM
#52
Great posts guys! nothing like the old SC vs TT discussion. what if we took the IC off of the TT set up and ran it hard? you dont think the Two turbos would cook the engine like the Stillen SC did? Yeah I'd like to see a Stillen SC intercooled running on 10+lb pullies,that should end this.anyone know of a TT for my 5AT G coupe that will eventually pass smog in CA?anybody recomend XS engineering for install? I'd like to get the PE TT,maybe i should contact Cheston.Do turbos even use oil? they are ball bearings which don't need constant oiling.
05-03-2004, 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by weslutes
Great posts guys! nothing like the old SC vs TT discussion. what if we took the IC off of the TT set up and ran it hard? you dont think the Two turbos would cook the engine like the Stillen SC did? Yeah I'd like to see a Stillen SC intercooled running on 10+lb pullies,that should end this.anyone know of a TT for my 5AT G coupe that will eventually pass smog in CA?anybody recomend XS engineering for install? I'd like to get the PE TT,maybe i should contact Cheston.Do turbos even use oil? they are ball bearings which don't need constant oiling.
Great posts guys! nothing like the old SC vs TT discussion. what if we took the IC off of the TT set up and ran it hard? you dont think the Two turbos would cook the engine like the Stillen SC did? Yeah I'd like to see a Stillen SC intercooled running on 10+lb pullies,that should end this.anyone know of a TT for my 5AT G coupe that will eventually pass smog in CA?anybody recomend XS engineering for install? I'd like to get the PE TT,maybe i should contact Cheston.Do turbos even use oil? they are ball bearings which don't need constant oiling.
So yes, it has oil or other lubricant, or solution to contend with the heat from friction and their general environment, Don't 4get where the turbos are attached to.
(sound good? I could be completely wrong here)
05-03-2004, 12:45 PM
#54
Yup, all the turbos are oil cooled....some OEM ones are even water-jacketed as well. The turbine shaft is literally bathed in a constant pool of oil, which circulates through the center of the exhuast housing using the normal engine oil system. The oil is pumped in by the standard oil pump, and then gravity drains itmake down to the oil pan. That trubine shaft is spinning at 100,000RPM plus, so it needs constant lube and cooling.
Oh Alpine, an oil pump upgrade is also unecessary...not going to make your oil run cooler or anything...the stock one is fine.
I would invest in an oil coiler, which should drop the oil temp about 10-20 degress. Sounds like you plan on tracking your car...I assume you mean road course. In which case, I would strongly recommend an oil cooler, and an upgraded radiator/better hoses. THe stock system is not designed for constant and repeated boost, as would be expereince on a track. Risk of overheating/detonation would be too great....IMO. Especially at a track like Willow Springs here track temps can exceed 120degreesF
Oh Alpine, an oil pump upgrade is also unecessary...not going to make your oil run cooler or anything...the stock one is fine.
I would invest in an oil coiler, which should drop the oil temp about 10-20 degress. Sounds like you plan on tracking your car...I assume you mean road course. In which case, I would strongly recommend an oil cooler, and an upgraded radiator/better hoses. THe stock system is not designed for constant and repeated boost, as would be expereince on a track. Risk of overheating/detonation would be too great....IMO. Especially at a track like Willow Springs here track temps can exceed 120degreesF
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 05-03-2004 at 12:49 PM.
05-03-2004, 01:40 PM
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Re: Re: heat
Originally posted by alpine
I love it. thanks again squill and everyone else who contributed to my salvation...
I love it. thanks again squill and everyone else who contributed to my salvation...
Glad you have seen the light believe me you will LOOOVE the TT on the VQ35DE!!!!
To address some of the other questions:
Originally posted by Sinurgy :
I came into this thread thinking S/C all the way. I must admit I'm seeing a bit of light as well. However, one thing I'm concerned about that I don't think has been addressed is reliability. When I talk reliability I don't mean the life of the turbo or s/c itself, I mean the life of my engine. The turbo setups just seem so much more complicated and there is just that much more to go wrong. I don't want to have to worry about constant tweaking, tuning, etc. just to keep everything running smoothly. The less I have to see my tuner shop the happier I would be. That still seems to be the main attraction to the S/C for me. It seems much more like a "set and forget" FI solution than the turbo. Well that plus from what I've read so far, it's also about $3K cheaper (including install).
now a turbo harnesses otherwise un used energy this being the exaust gasses expelled by the engine. So the engine isnt working any harder to drive the turbos than it would normally thus having less wear and tear on the enging than a super charger does.
Now if you install the greddt TT kit and leave it set stock by greddy it will not require any tuning at all or ever.
The greddy kit runs about 4.6lbs of boost out of the box and will out perform all the other super chargers which are making around 7lbs of boost from the factory out of the box.
So for reliability you look at a turbo running lower boost to the engine with less wear and tear on that engine always controlling heat more efficiently than and S/C out there!!
And the turbo systems really not as complicated as a lot of people think.
A supercharger needs just as much tuning as a turbo system does when you raise the boost from their factory settings not to mention all the snapped belts.
I ran my mitsubishi starion 189000k miles untill the turbo failed and that was 19 year old turbo technology. With intercooled and oil fed turbos they should long out last any S/C out there!!
05-03-2004, 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by gq_626
Yup, all the turbos are oil cooled....some OEM ones are even water-jacketed as well. The turbine shaft is literally bathed in a constant pool of oil, which circulates through the center of the exhuast housing using the normal engine oil system. The oil is pumped in by the standard oil pump, and then gravity drains itmake down to the oil pan. That trubine shaft is spinning at 100,000RPM plus, so it needs constant lube and cooling.
Oh Alpine, an oil pump upgrade is also unecessary...not going to make your oil run cooler or anything...the stock one is fine.
I would invest in an oil coiler, which should drop the oil temp about 10-20 degress. Sounds like you plan on tracking your car...I assume you mean road course. In which case, I would strongly recommend an oil cooler, and an upgraded radiator/better hoses. THe stock system is not designed for constant and repeated boost, as would be expereince on a track. Risk of overheating/detonation would be too great....IMO. Especially at a track like Willow Springs here track temps can exceed 120degreesF
Yup, all the turbos are oil cooled....some OEM ones are even water-jacketed as well. The turbine shaft is literally bathed in a constant pool of oil, which circulates through the center of the exhuast housing using the normal engine oil system. The oil is pumped in by the standard oil pump, and then gravity drains itmake down to the oil pan. That trubine shaft is spinning at 100,000RPM plus, so it needs constant lube and cooling.
Oh Alpine, an oil pump upgrade is also unecessary...not going to make your oil run cooler or anything...the stock one is fine.
I would invest in an oil coiler, which should drop the oil temp about 10-20 degress. Sounds like you plan on tracking your car...I assume you mean road course. In which case, I would strongly recommend an oil cooler, and an upgraded radiator/better hoses. THe stock system is not designed for constant and repeated boost, as would be expereince on a track. Risk of overheating/detonation would be too great....IMO. Especially at a track like Willow Springs here track temps can exceed 120degreesF
I may have the oil cooler in a few days, it's a bit pricier than I thought it would be. I was hoping 500/600 it seems to be more around 1000/1200, plus install. I wonder how/might this interfere with the TT install if it was there prior/post.
You don't need an improved oil pump to keep up with demand/pressure created by the Turbo? I didn't want that for cooling purposes.
In my american cars, I have always added high volume oil pumps after building up the internals. I figured the same would hold true for this scenario.
Also, you would need/put more oil into the system, right?
I think you mentioned you are still changing oil at 3K even with synthetic because of the strain/stress from turbo?
So what would be considered constant/repeated boost? Isn't there some built in protection for this, or something to monitor?
05-03-2004, 03:59 PM
#57
Alpine good questions. As you dive further into this, things start to get a little bit grayer.
I think you've already decide on the turbo kit...nice work....
Now, the basic kit is terrific, but there is always room for improvment.
!) I saw a really nice looking Greddy oil cooler for $600 with sweet looking anodized earl fitting and hoses. Check the Greddy catalog for details. There is tons of room and airflow up front, so you'll have no trouble supporting an additional oil cooler, and it will not interfere with the Greddy install.
2) The oil pumping system doesn't need any special modifications to do its job, and can easily support the rigors of a turbo. Now, since the oil is serving a dual purpose of cooling the engine and cooling the turbo exhuast housing, two things could benifit you in terms of lubrications and temp. Greater oil capacity, and reduced oil temp.
You can Increase the volume of oil circulating through the engine via a larger oil pan. The stock crankcase holds 5qts of oil, and the pan is a cheap POS....nothing special about it at all. My favorite oil pan is the beautiful aluminum forged pan from Power Enterprises. WOW! When you see this thing...you will die. Not only does it increase oil capacity by 1qt (6qt total), but it has nice heat fins on it to dissapate even more heat. Cheston installed this on his car and his oil temps dropped about 10-15 degrees C....without an oil cooler! The pan is about $600 if I remember correctly. Personally, I would chooose the pan over the oil cooler if they are the same price.
Again, in stock trim the Greddy and PE kits are fine for most folks at the pre-established boost levels. There are lots of nice upgrades you do to both kits if you so choose to make them more fun or more durable.
Regarding the constant boost issue. There are no provisions or safety devices to protect you from overheating your motor, or detonating under very hot or extreme conditions. As intake temps increase, you tendacy to detonate increases as well. And if you are constantly on the boost, the compressor side of the turbo is going to get VERY VERY hot....even after intercooling...the air is going to be hotter than optimum. Road racing is very stressful on the car, and if you do that, I would suggest significant upgrades to the cooling and oil system. I would also suggest definately running 100octane racing fuel. New radiator (like the nice full aluminum jobby from PE or ARC), oil pan and oil cooler are a must.
If this car was an OEM turbo with LC pistons and normal provisions for a turbo, then I wouldnt worry too much. But since we are slapping a turbo on an otherwise stock higher-compression motor, I would take some additional procautious. This car can be very suceptible to pinging with a TT...even if properly tuned. Be careful out there.
When you goto the track, have an EGT and A/F guage running at all times, and listen for the sounds of pinging. If you hear a ping, let off right away.
I think you've already decide on the turbo kit...nice work....
Now, the basic kit is terrific, but there is always room for improvment.
!) I saw a really nice looking Greddy oil cooler for $600 with sweet looking anodized earl fitting and hoses. Check the Greddy catalog for details. There is tons of room and airflow up front, so you'll have no trouble supporting an additional oil cooler, and it will not interfere with the Greddy install.
2) The oil pumping system doesn't need any special modifications to do its job, and can easily support the rigors of a turbo. Now, since the oil is serving a dual purpose of cooling the engine and cooling the turbo exhuast housing, two things could benifit you in terms of lubrications and temp. Greater oil capacity, and reduced oil temp.
You can Increase the volume of oil circulating through the engine via a larger oil pan. The stock crankcase holds 5qts of oil, and the pan is a cheap POS....nothing special about it at all. My favorite oil pan is the beautiful aluminum forged pan from Power Enterprises. WOW! When you see this thing...you will die. Not only does it increase oil capacity by 1qt (6qt total), but it has nice heat fins on it to dissapate even more heat. Cheston installed this on his car and his oil temps dropped about 10-15 degrees C....without an oil cooler! The pan is about $600 if I remember correctly. Personally, I would chooose the pan over the oil cooler if they are the same price.
Again, in stock trim the Greddy and PE kits are fine for most folks at the pre-established boost levels. There are lots of nice upgrades you do to both kits if you so choose to make them more fun or more durable.
Regarding the constant boost issue. There are no provisions or safety devices to protect you from overheating your motor, or detonating under very hot or extreme conditions. As intake temps increase, you tendacy to detonate increases as well. And if you are constantly on the boost, the compressor side of the turbo is going to get VERY VERY hot....even after intercooling...the air is going to be hotter than optimum. Road racing is very stressful on the car, and if you do that, I would suggest significant upgrades to the cooling and oil system. I would also suggest definately running 100octane racing fuel. New radiator (like the nice full aluminum jobby from PE or ARC), oil pan and oil cooler are a must.
If this car was an OEM turbo with LC pistons and normal provisions for a turbo, then I wouldnt worry too much. But since we are slapping a turbo on an otherwise stock higher-compression motor, I would take some additional procautious. This car can be very suceptible to pinging with a TT...even if properly tuned. Be careful out there.
When you goto the track, have an EGT and A/F guage running at all times, and listen for the sounds of pinging. If you hear a ping, let off right away.
05-09-2004, 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by SQUILL
I guess i should have clarified as to why i dont like the stillen.
First of all your car has a supercharger and mine doesent so i like your car 10 times more than mine that being said if you go with the stage 2 intercooled supercharger it costs 5800 bucks more or less then you have to either modify your hood or buy a stillen hood 400-700 bucks.
At this kind of cost you can have the greddy twin turbo kit and have more tourque and more hp everywhere in the powerband.
This is of course just my oppinion but i would be curious as to if you were thinking of TT and if so what made you decide to go with the stillen SC???
maybe would be good info for Alpine as well as it sounds like he could go wither way with his car.
I guess i should have clarified as to why i dont like the stillen.
First of all your car has a supercharger and mine doesent so i like your car 10 times more than mine that being said if you go with the stage 2 intercooled supercharger it costs 5800 bucks more or less then you have to either modify your hood or buy a stillen hood 400-700 bucks.
At this kind of cost you can have the greddy twin turbo kit and have more tourque and more hp everywhere in the powerband.
This is of course just my oppinion but i would be curious as to if you were thinking of TT and if so what made you decide to go with the stillen SC???
maybe would be good info for Alpine as well as it sounds like he could go wither way with his car.
05-09-2004, 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by JoshTreeFity
But do you have the reliability and the CARB legality? That appeals to alot of people. Power, reliability, and smog are the 3 things that I really consider beucase i live in california and I daily drive my Z.
But do you have the reliability and the CARB legality? That appeals to alot of people. Power, reliability, and smog are the 3 things that I really consider beucase i live in california and I daily drive my Z.