alpine

I don't recall now if I stated this concern/question in this latest round of FI research, however one of my primary concerns was this heat issue aside from ambient temperature affecting turbo performance.

I do plan on tracking my car, and I already do/have.

Perhaps this was one of my earlier thoughts on going SC vs TT where the problem of boosting under track conditions isn't as severe as with TT.

I was considering spending 5/6K on SC and basically being done, with more things to do as I chose. Grant it, not as easily as with TT, or as "far", but things can be done with SC after basic install.

Now with TT I am looking at starting around 7/8K, and with track conditions, I need another 3/4K on top of that bring me to a total of 10/11K.

At this point, I could just tear down my engine, go bored&stroked reamin NA and be further than SC without the bulk of the issues, and damn close to basic TT with NO issues.

So Now what?

SQUILL

What do you need to spend the extra 3-4 grand on turbo for???

remember you can install the greddy kit (6-6500k) + install (1-1200k) and leave it stock and have theese results : http://greddy.com/page.asp?idx=7

alpine

Not referring to results, I am refering to usability (is that a word?).

I want to track this car, I've been out on the track with an SC car all day and it didn't have any heat/boosting problems.

From what GQ just laid out is another 3-4K i need to invest in order to protect my car from beating/boosting itself to death and this was one of the key reasons I had started to lean towards SC to begin with. Greatly less complicated, and less wear/tear/stress on the engine than turbo under constant load.

Or am I just completely not comprehending here?

thanks,

350Zzzz

I was just curious about the statement you made that a "turbo kit can push 25-40", in the context above; do you mean to say that SC are incapable of achieving those levels of boost?

G

SQUILL

Yea the superchargers that are out for the 350Z are incapable of generating that kind of boost.

I suppose its possible with some kind of crazy pulley set up of doom you could get a s/c it up to 25 psi ....it would probably blow up in the process as well.

What im saying is the current s/c's out for the Z are not designed to produce anywhere near the kind of boost that a built block can handle so why waste the mony on building the block for a sc??

SQUILL

If you read Gq's posts on his tt system here in the forums you will see his greddy kit is far from stock. This is where the extra money is coming from. Hes got the greddy e-01, and the walbro fuel pump and some other stuff i cant remember so his car will run 8.5 psi of boost with proper tuning.

Remember if you leave the greddy kit stock you will be boosting 4.6 psi and will not need all that stuff that GQ'S car has because you only need that gear if you want to run higher boost.

Turbos are less stressful to the engine and you are only running 4.6 lbs of boost to get 330 whp vs 7 lbs of boost with the s/c for the same whp plus the turbo generates tons of tourque right at 2500 rpm so you have much more useable acceleration when needed.

The s/c is like a giant alternator that your engine has to drive 100% of the time and takes as much as 25% of the engines power to do so which is alot more wear and tear on the engine than the turbos which harness wasted exaust energy to do the same.

I dont see a big issue with heat problems at all at with the turbo kit ..unless the af ratios are so scary that a little extra heat may cause detonation or pre ignition.

this isnt the case with the stock greddy kit 4.6psi.

the guys running 8-10 psi are having A/F ratios that are borderline scary lean at high revs due to the stock fuel system problems which is what a bunch of guys here are trying to figure out right now with bigger injectors, and more timing retard ect ect .

But like you said you dont want to do that kind of stuff anyway so i dont see the heat being any kind of a problem compared to a s/c system

Dont be lured back to the darkside!!!!!

go towards the light the light is good!!!

jak

This thread has come at a great time. I am looking at FI in the near future to. I like the idea of turbo system and was sure I was going to go that way but the more I looked at what’s available the more I am back on the fence.

This is what I have determined:
PE - overpriced in my opinion compared to all of the other FI systems and has a reputation for poor customer service. The way they treated Cheston a member here is unforgivable.

ATI had some problems at first but seemed to get those fixed. Centrifugal unit with low torque numbers at usable RPMs. Everything comes in at redline.

Vortech - much more flexible to tune via R4 software. No reliability issues that I have heard of, but again it is a centrifugal unit with all the power coming in at redline.

Stillen - great torque, quiet, reliable, and upgradeable with an intercooler and larger pulleys but the hood has to be replaced altering the look of the car to get it to fit.

Greddy - more reasonably priced compared to PE. Good HP and torque numbers out of the box. Expandable to large HP. Has had rumors of several deaths because of the required removal of the collision beam and the relocation of the air bag sensors.

For me Greddy is out due to the safety issue. PE is out due to the cost and poor customer service. That eliminates the turbos. ATI and Vortech don't seem to be what I would look for in FI (I could be convinced to change my mind however). Stillen would be the ticket if it weren't for that hood.

I am ready to pull the trigger like Alpine and buy FI but I just don't believe there is a good system out there yet for the Z. Am I wrong?

Jeff

fluidz

i think 10-12lbs of boost from a vortech would be plenty.........8 is great as it is right now running rich..LOL

G3po

iTrader: (8)

Here's a few TT alternative (assumeing the removal of the bumper beam is not acceptable to you):

a) buy the Greddy base kit (no FMIC) and have a custom (slightly) smaller FMIC and plumbing fabbed.

b) buy the Greddy kit with FMIC and have a smaller steel cross-member fabbed to replav the large factroy boxed aluminum unit.

c) wait for JWT. Note the first offering is more G35 than 350z centric. The kit will use two smaller side mounted FMICS to better fit the G35 factory bumper inlets. A single FMIC is more appropriate with the Z bumper configuration.


Personally I'm waiting on c) ,sicne I have a G and I want a factory "stealth" presentation.

jak

I was waiting for more info on the JWT myself. I like the dual FMIC layout. I have a Balsarini front end on my Z so the air inlets are there for the dual FMIC.

I would like to know more about the tuning fuel mahagement solutions JWT is going to use.

Jeff

jak

If I went SC it would be Vortech. How is the off the line response with your kit? I am more of a off the line or punch it when rolling type of guy than a top speed freak.

I heard a sound clip of an ATI once and it seemed loud. How loud is your Vortech?

Jeff

G3po

iTrader: (8)

From the limited info I've seen the Fuel management will leave the factory injectors. If this is the case some simple form of Rising rate fuel method will be supplied. The ECU us to be reflashed, I am assuming to tune up the fuel and timing curves.

If this info is true (so far the only YUK I see, the first thing I would "seriously" consider is upgradeing the injectors and adding a piggyback controller such as E-manage of Split second.

A boost controller would be seriously considered to selectively pump up the boost hopefully to ~8psi with stock internals.

The kit also appears to be devoid of a BOV (same as greddy kit) , this is one of the first items I would upgrade, especially with higher boost considerations.

Something else I will consider is an upgrade of the base 530BB to the 700BBs to allow for future bottom end and psi growth. THe 530s seem to be a great street setup, but are pretty smallish. The manifolds and downpipes should mate with the 700BB fine , but I'm not 100% sure yet if clearance is adequate.

jak

It will be interesting to see what JWT does. Any word on a release date yet? I see mid 2004 on there website which says to me Juneish.

Jeff

little_rod

There are many advantages of a TT kit. Honestly, if you spend that kind of money, you better love it. You can get an SC installed for like $5500. I was quoted $2300 on the install of a TT, and that is the norm, put that on top of the $6000-$6500 for the Greddy. So you are looking at around 3K off the top.

I have not made my mind up on the whole FI situation yet. But all things have to be considered. Do you want to spend 9K on your car, without any other mods?? An SC can put out twice the stock boost, the Vortech is said to have a limit of 25psi on their site. Sure, the potential is even higher with a TT, but will you REALLY use it?? How long will you even have your car, is it worth it to put 9K into it?? What good is all the low end torque when you have no traction on the street?? Will you drag race your car??

Alpine, this is not a simple or easy answer to come to for yourself. Look at all the options, and do what is best for you only, cause noone else knows what you need more than you do. The ultimate power of the TT is attractive, but there is alot more that should go into the equation than just that. Money no object, I would go with the TT, but then again, if money was no object, I probably wouldn't have a Z.

350Zzzz

"$2300 on the install of a TT" is a bargain, just make certain that these fellas know what they're doing; as the price is unusually low.

I like the PE TT, as it comes in a great package, well thought out I must say. I have seen 3 of them so far; 2 being installed with the bottom-end fortified. Am considering selling off my block with the SC, and having another short block worked prepped.

Do I need it; the answer would be a fat NO! But it feels got just knowing that you have it under the hood.

From my personal experience, an SC is ideal for our roads, it is peppy; capable of quick and instantaneous burst for great launches. And, don't be deceived, the ATI blower is capable of at least 30 lbs., but the stock block will not sustain the brute force. The other benefit of the SC is the boost runs lineal to the engine acceleration. Therefore, even without fuel boost, the engine is constantly replenished with an efficient supply of air.

With the Turbos, components, installation and maintenance are a little more complex but power sustainability is there; great for the tracks and long stretches.

From what I've seen on the drag strips, a number of turbos, choose to launch with NA and switching to turbos as a secondary power source.

With the ATI SC, it is a snap to remove all trace of the blower should the need arise.

At the end of it all, the key is to satisfy your own personal desire.

G

alpine

Great posts! Thanks for the conversation and info!

Now, Just this morning I was posting a long *** post, and my damned Mcafee Firewall had a conniption and I lost it.

Sorry to say this, but I can't type all of it again, so this is not going to be as indepth and thoughtfull as it may have been original.

(1) Safety is a primary concern, so if I have to significantly reduce the safety of the vehicle for a TT desgin by removing structural suport, that is defintely out of the question.

Not because of me, I am an excellent driver in all conditions/scenarios (of course everyone thinks they are, but I can back it up).

(2) It seems that SC doesn't invite the heat/stress problems under track conditions that TT does. Need more info here.

(3) Again, if I am going to spend 10K +, why not stay NA build the engine to stroke and bore the engine 4.3L and call it a day?

(4) The latest post, concurs with my primary belief of considering street conditions, traffic, and "ife in la" SC will be more usefull than TT.

As I stated I always understood TT offers more, but how often do you get to use it?

Here is a good example of "how often do you get to use it". I've installed a nice sound system in my car. Considerably more costly than most would believe is worth doing in a car.

A few weeks ago, I was on the 170N, about 2PM and approaching the 170N/5N interchange.

During my drive from LA to this point, I had a few other "imports" entertaining themselves, and me occasioably with various displays of power and driving ability.

And they clearly had more power than I did, their driving sucked but that's normal.

They had more stickers/emblems on the car than paint I believe, your typical "import tuner nut" (no offense intended here guys don't flame me, more power to ya!).

Anyways, we came up on mid day construction and basically sat helpless for about 30 minutes while we moved about 1.5 miles.

During this time, I had my stereo, and I was happy as hell. The other guys were all pissed off, upset, and just hating life.

So for that 30 minutes my lack of turbo and various engine/exhaust modifications was well worth it, as it would have done no good at that time, and this happens all the time, right?

So if I have SC vs TT and I only pound on it at every on ramp, an occasionaly street race, and a couple times a month at the track, and I get basically the same thing as TT why not SC?, at least with all things considered?

Sorry about going back to the darkside, but when I set off looking for FI I wanted to keep in mind "realworld" conditions and factors, not just labatory specs.

Squill, I'm slipping here Bro!

SQUILL

I dont blame you for slipping the darkside is a powerfull force!!!lol

anyway the na route for example with a built motor:

AEBS stroker kit 7995
Labor to remove engine and build motor then replace :2170
camshafts 1150
valve springs and retainers 1100
headers 1100
clutch 1100
full exaust with hiflow cats 1600
plenum 450
block machining 500
Tuning 500???
total 17,665 (based on a quote i got from a local shop )


TT kits 6500-7500 plus install 1400

7900-8900 total (no more tuning if you leave stock)

wait for either the APS TT kit or the Jim wolf TT kit
as alot more thought is going in to those systems
the greddy used an existing intercooler rather than designing a new one specifically for the 350z I highly doubt JWT or APS will make that same mistake.

Heat is not an issue with tt cars the intercooler on the greddy kit is enormus and way bigger than it needs to be.

My s4 twin turbo was running 14-15 psi the intercoolers on that car (2 of them) are about 12 " x 8" by about 21/2" wide and i drove the PI$$ out of it and the car never ran hotter than any other car ive owned. Heat is not something you should be factoring in to your decision whatsoever!!!!

Believe me if you had a chance to drive a supercharged 350z and a TT 350z on the same day you would be convinced !!!!

Stay in the light TT is supreme!

little_rod

350Zzzz, that is a decent price on the install, although I have seen some cheaper prices posted on this board.

Alpine, the people that have TTs will of course tell you that route, and the people that have SCs will tell you that route. You will hardly ever see either tell you to go the other route. They did what is best for them and their situation.

Point blank, if you are willing to spend a bunch on your car for ultimate power, the TT is the way to go. If I were to get a TT, there is noway I would want to keep it anywhere near its stock boost, hence the money for it would be pretty large. If you want a performance upgrade for a decent price, an SC might be for you. Some people just love the power curve of a TT, to each is own.

Bottom line is neither is a bad choice, and as you can see, the owners of neither an SC nor a turbo are unhappy with their choice.

Sanderman

You are basically where I am. I don't track, I don't race and I'm not into a horsepower ego trip. Many folks getting TTs are aiming to do big engine mods and go for absurd hp levels. Those aren't going to do you any good for how you will use the car according to your description. The other thing they don't mention is that turbos (and they will refute this, but not if they are honest) suffer from turbo lag. They will say they have more torque at 3,000, but they won't say that when you' re rolling at a constant speed and hit it, it takes awhile for anything to happen. This is simple physics. Turbos have always done this. They always do. They always will. Yes, you can make them go fast but you have to be in front of what you want them to do by a split second or two so that you're pushing before you actually need the boost. You will feel this off the line. You will feel this when cruising at a constant speed and you want to suddenly accelerate. This does not show up on a dyno. So all those pretty curves you see them post hide it completely. But it's there. Drive a turbo and see. Yes, they have phenomenal rush when they do take off, but they don't provide the instant response of SC, even a centrifugal SC. The turbo kits are FAR more complex to set-up adjust and maintain. I look at the TT advocates / posters here and their daily posts on mods, adjustments and endless tweaks and I don't see people hopping in their cars and using them the way you describe - I see a lifestyle. Boost controllers? Timers? ECU flashes? Upgraded injectors? Adding multiple new guages? Do you want to drive your car or spend all your time tuning and tweaking it?

I've owned and driven twin turbo cars for over 11 years (stock to highly modded) and I went SC for the 350. I get 370 at the rear wheels tuned a bit rich so it's prefectly safe, have absolutely no lag, no complexities and no hassles. And the car is TRANSFORMED compared to stock. And I drive my car the way you do. The car just starts, runs and acts like it came from the factory this way. Not a lifestyle - I just hop in and enjoy it.

What a concept.

Now I know it sounds like I'm hating on the TT guys here. I'm not. I love boost of any variety, but you have to put things in perspective and whats right for some of the hard core horsepower freaks here (which is where TTs will always win) may not be the perfect ticket for everybody in every situation so I'm just trying to offer a little balance here relative to the nonstop TT advocacy I see offered up here on a routine basis....

joe

SQUILL

The common misconception is that turbos have lag and superchargers dont. How much boost does your supercharger make at 2000-2500 rpm ???? probably 3lbs roughly this is the same thing as turbo lag only in a supercharged car the feeling is more gradual unlike the turbos which snap your neck when they kick in if you are unskilled enough to drive the car under 2000k rpms where the turbos are not spooling and then floor it.

Your supercharger has more lag than a turbo because it does not reach peak boost pressure until it is near redline unlike turbos which reach peak boost anywhere from 2500 to 3000 rpms.

either systems lag is really not much to be concerned about anyway when you are at W.O.T how long does it really take to hit redline?? It comes mad quick. If your main reason to go the S/C route is turbo lag then it makes me wonder what kind of cars you owned in the past. but hey if someone is on a budget then its hard to justify spending an extra 1500-2000 for turbos but if the extra 1500-2000k is not the deciding factor, then for that extra money you are getting a way superior system for a high reving small displacement engine.