tig488

iTrader: (18)

didnt you get the 3 yr warranty because of a mixup, werent there some communication issues between vortech and grubbs?

PoWeRtRiP

one thing to keep in mind is that you cant compare the ati max impeller speed to the vortech.

even though the ati pulls 80000 max impeller its only making like 9psi right? well the vortech gets 9 psi at 50000ish rpms obviously the vortech is a bigger blower which if upgraded with orings and bearings to pull 80000 would make way more than the ati ever could.

esemes

this brings up a good issue....

impeller size, and blade pitch/number/type, etc make a BIG difference on the output......

remember the variable-vane type??

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

I completely agree with HoustonG35. This has been a very imformative thread. I am grateful we are all mature enough to act like adults. After all, we are trying to acheive the same basic goal.

Concerning the oil contamination argument... If vortech assumes responsibilty for any damage that may occur as a result of tiny particles flowing through the oil filter, than I would feel comfortable tapping my oil pan. Otherwise, it is a risk I would be unwilling to take. Why are so many people scared to tap the oil pan? Because it becomes a risk... Will it destroy your engine? Probably not but it could, especially if you are running your blower out of spec. I am in the insurance business. I transfer or eliminate risk for people on a daily basis. Maybe this is why I feel so strongly about this point...

Cars with the ATI blower are eaiser to make faster hands down for the following reasons:
1) The ATI blower has a much higher redline. For the vortech kit to compete, you must send your blower in and have work performed. This means take off the blower, wait for parts and then reinstall. This is a a lot of time and effort. Even if you do this the intercooler may not be sufficient? We will hear more about this I am sure...
2) In order to get real power out of the vortech kit you must buy/tune using the R4 software.
3) In order to have equal horsepower you must run more PSI with the vortech kit. (again timing and intercooler size play a role in this).

Example: Say your goal is to make 415rwhp (safely) without cams and other internal engine modifications. With the vortech kit you will need to do the following.
1. New pulley 2. New bearings for blower 3. New o-rings for blower 4. Take off blower 5. Send blower to vortech 6. Wait for work/parts 7. Reinstall blower 8. Redue fuel system 9. Increase injectors size 10. Reflash ecu 11. Maybe get a new intercooler 12. re tune using R4 software (again a lot of guys have had problems with this and the TS reflash. I'm not exactly sure how this works)

For the ATI kit you will need to do steps 1, 8, 9, 10. Basically half the number of steps you need to do with the ATI kit.

HoustonG35,
Is your 3 year warranty through Grubbs or Vortech? This might be the difference? I can't see how they would warranty an item running out of spec? However I could be wrong. Make sure it is in writing.

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

Sorry at 80,000 the ATI kit is making 11-12 PSI not 9 PSI.
At 62, 000 it is making 7 PSI and at 69, 000 it is making 9 PSI.

esemes

safely?? (RElative i guess)

how does the ATi kit address the r4 tuning achievements?? I ask this earnestly, as i am not sure of it myself (many have after-kit mods done, like a return in the fuel line, etc)...

i was originally gonna get the ATI kit, but grubbs steered me away from it, as they were now primarily doing the vortech kits (i figured they would know alot, seeing as they are one of the primary dealer/installers of these kits.... and straight out of the showroom floor)

welp, i guess you could have the foresight (and after this thread, i am hoping many new owners do too!) to speak to the reps (either vortech or ati) about your desires and budgets... this would help them send the correct compressor to you the first time.
I do agree that this post is an informative one, but, i find no reason to slant the r4 tuning as being a negative. This is the best way to get accurate mapping for the specific car, and components (even a TS reflash, that is mail order, gives an approximate/average mapping return... this doesnt factor in your specific car, which could be more lean or more riuch.... too many variables to factor in.... a TS reflash done onsite, with a dyno to measure the individual car's needs, would also be ideal...)

keep the info flowing!

Sinful

Getrag is a german transmission. it is BAD *** in the supra, holding up to 800+rwhp and this from a STOCK transmission!

Sinful

Please tell me your situation was similar to mine and you were forced to sell your supra!! Sp63 is a sweet set up, spools damn fast! Once you go single, there is no return lol. Luck for me i will be *borrowing* my buddies 93'hardtop T76 this week even tho it spools pretty late its bad ***!

PoWeRtRiP

it was also the awd tranny in the 3000gt/stealth which was trouble ridden. the synchros and transfer case were pure $hit. i believe the one in the z is actually made by nissan

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

esemes,
The R4 software is great. I didn't mean to slant it. (sorry if it came off that way) I only meant to make it clear that it was an add on to the vortech kit and that it may not work properly with the Techno Square ECU. (which is more capable and more percise because it is programmed right into your ecu) But your points about tuning in person are duely noted. In some cases it takes a couple trys to make it perfect for your particular car.

Concerning what ATI has reccomened for timing. Both the J&S and the TS ECU were reccomended when increasing the boost past 7PSI. (These are both add ons) There are several users that like the J&S safegaurd but I liked the extras that come with the ECU flash. Both cost roughly the same and eliminate any timing/detonation issues.

Sinful,
You are absolutely right about the supra 6MT. I loved that transmission. My MKIV started out as a white/black 94 twin turbo 6MT. Before selling it, I had painted it seal grey metallic, installed an sp63 and several other goodies. You can do a search on the supraforums if you want to see some pics. (I had the same screen name as I do here.) I had all my work done at Sound Performance.

Getting back on topic... We have yet to address a major issue. The installer and tuner of the supercharger is more important than the kit itself. The installer and tuner can make the difference between a blown engine and an 11 sec Z. Unfortuatley for ATI, their was a tuner in the early days that didn't consider addressing the timing while increasing the boost with an ECU upgrade. This led to several blown motors.

I know many on this thread used Grubbs. In my case, (after deciding to boost more than 7PSI) I chose Doug at Crawford as he knows as much or more about this car than anyone. I have put all of his specailty parts on my car and can't wait to see the results. IMO it doesn't get any better than Crawford

Lets hear about other installers/tuners, both the good and the bad.

esemes

if i could've had my ecu custom m apped, id be all over it (no one locally does it, and shipping my car isnt a rational possibility...yet). The r4 is designed to piggy the STOCK ecu, and will be 'off' in tuning if the ECU is set otherwise (it is designed to send sifnals to stock ecu values.....)

so below 7lbs of boost, what is the design??? (i wanna learn this!)

agreed on crawdaddy's stuff..... i have their v5 plenbum, and just got the h/f cats (with extra a/f bung for wideband welded in)... works of art for sure...... i plan on headers later, IF i can find some SOLID proof they are beneficial to FI applications...... (having stock exhaust , im netting 319 lb-ft of TQ, must. dyno)

does it ever end??

-e S

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

All I can say about crawford headers is that they are amazing. I'm not sure if Doug dynoed my car before and after but I do know there was a nice increase in power after. I am not one to drop roughly $1400 for a mod (install and parts) unless I know it will work. IMO the best products made by crawford are the headers. (I even asked Doug to sign them before he installed them. Yes I'm kind of strange) And that is saying a lot because the plenum and cats are as good as it gets. The stock headers are poor at best. The stock exhaust isn't that bad. Do yourself a favor and get the Crawford headers. (This is where us supercharger guys can help bridge the gap between turbos) Last week, at 8 PSI my car made 345 rwtq. Remember that I have a 5AT and that the dyno crawford uses, reads low numbers. I think Doug said it reads 8-10rwhp lower than the dyno they use in Atlanta.

Regarding the timing deal with ATI. They don't adjust timing with the 7lbs kit. They don't feel it is necessary as long as your car's AF is good. As far as fuel, they also use an external pump and DFMU similar to vortech. However, unlike vortech they sell two kits. One is a tuner kit. This is for guys that plan to incease the boost past 7PSI and plan on ECU and injector upgrades. This is what I wish I had purchased initially as it would have been more economical. The other kit is similar to the vortech kit minus the SS box. It is rumored that they might have someting similar to the SS box but to my knowledge have not started selling it for the Z.

esemes

WHOS-

interesting news on the headers.......

i have a full fujitsubo (Y pipe too) to be delivered here on thurs.... i figured that w/ the cats will be of some benefit .....


any chance i will see 8lbs w/ the exhaust (im only showing 7 lbs now)??? its possibly the gauge....... (?) either way, good numbers for 7 or 8 lbs, IMO....

wonder what type of dyno doug uses??? (id like to know)

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

I beleive it is a dynojet but I would have to call Doug to be sure.

Honestly, I am having similar issues right now. It sounds like you are only making 7PSI on the 8lbs vortech kit. I am only making 8PSI on the ATI 9lbs kit. This is stange for me because I changed the pulleys out and I am hitting the same boost as I did with the 7PSI kit. Since the ECU flash, my rev limiter has been raised so I should make 1-2 PSI more than the pulleys are rated.

There are several issues that come into play. Anything from leaky bypass valves to boost leaks with the IC piping. Yes it could be your gauge but who knows? I am trying to figure it out too.

Your car will definitly make more power with exhaust but it probably wont boost anymore. Right now the stock headers are plugging you up. My next mod if I were you would be crawford headers but thats just me

DBZ33

iTrader: (2)

I have been reading this for a few days now and I want to say this is a great discussion so far. I think both the ATI and the Vortech kit has there + and - but I went with the Vortech. All my friends that have had Mustangs and LS1 have used Vortech and had great performance from there product. And 6mo's ago I read about the problems with the ATI kit blowing up the motors,

I turned to the Vortech. I have the Vortech on my bone stock 350z and it put down 371.04 RWHP with 336.97 TQ running rich with no upgrades just the way it came off the show room. The baseline run with the kit and no tuning was 350 RWHP. I think that is great for a bolt on kit. I will soon put on the Headers, test pipes, and exhaust. I hope with more tuning and the mod’s I will have low 400's RWHP.

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

DBZ33,
Those are high numbers, no question about it... You dynoed higher than most guys running exhaust, test pipes, etc. (with the 8 lbs vortech kit) Did they do a baseline dyno before the S/C on the same dyno (assuming your car was stock then)? I would be interested to know if your baseline was high as well.

It can be hard sometimes to tell how powerful your car really is without a baseline dyno. The average I have seen for a stock 6MT 350Z is about 235rwhp. There have been some higher but the average is closer to this. If your car dynoed higher than I would look at the increase of rwhp from the stock baseline dyno to your latest dyno of 371rwhp. If your car increased by 136rwhp (371-235) roughly 37%, than it is a freak of nature and you are the first on a stock car with the 8lbs vortech kit to acheive these numbers. If it increased by (roughly 32%-33%)120rwhp to 125rwhp than that is normal and your dyno just reads higher numbers. To adjust your numbers for a high dyno reading just subtract roughly 4% (37%-33%) which would put you closer to 357rwhp (which is normal). Since you said you are running rich I would have to guess that your baseline dyno was higher but I could be worng. Please post your baseline numbers if you have them.

Seeing as though you are in the Chicago area, how far are you from Bloomingdale? That is where Sound Performance is located. When it comes to Single Turbo Supras they are top notch. I believe they have a dyno now if you want to compare.

axxizzer

I have the stillen stage 3 and all I can say is wow! It was an easy-enough install (compared to horror stories about the TT and/or the Vortech install/tune) and it offers great torque down-low. I think it perfectly accents the engine bay and with my stillen headers. exhaust, and strut bar. It handles well and makes awesome power. Also, it's fairly cheap! Right between the Vortech and Ati. It makes good enough boost for my purposes (ocasional tracking/ streeting) and doesnt sacrifice much in the way of traction. I love the CF hood, and soon hope to complete my stillen package with thier intake, flywheel (or maybe 350Evo). I love the fact that Stillen keeps coming out with new Stages and each gains significant power on the last. I am glad to have this 'charger and wouldnt trade in for any other system out there.

esemes

axx - glad to hear stillen representing! Can you divulge the dyno numbers (or increases ) you got from the still stage three? also, did you start w/ stage 3, or add the FMIC at a later ate?? what type of management do you have on the fueling and ignition?

pics!!

-eS

DBZ33

iTrader: (2)

Hey everyone. My car bone stock with ground wires put down 246 RWHP. I was very excited to hear that before the install. The install was done at CJ-Motorsports in West Chicago. They are on this forum under the name “Phunk” his name is Charles I’m sure some of you know him. He has a Greddy twin turbo kit on his Black track 350z. The car with the kit not tuned put down 350 RWHP and after tuning it put down the 371 RWHP and he left it kind of rich because he wanted to be safe and I was happy with the power until I get more mod’s. I will be getting test pipes, headers, and an exhaust very soon. I hope to be in the low 400’s to the wheels with those mods and some more tuning.

Me and Charles just got back from the track tonight. My best run was a 13.1 at 110mph with a 2.19 60ft. I count not hook no matter what I did. I have the stock 18 wheels and tires with 13,000 miles on them. It would have wheel hop all the way through first gear, and it was so bad I missed second gear twice. I was pissed. The track was so packed tonight I got 3 runs in 4hrs and missed second twice. I was happy with my trap speed. Well I got to go to bed now I have work in the morning. Later.

AmyCroft

iTrader: (3)

DBZ33

Yes Charles posted here about VQ35DETT run

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=80143

You did well Dude !

Cheers Amy -