That's the question. What do you prefer APS TT or Greddy TT?

 

Some Pro's for Greddy : available now, lower cost of entry.

Some Pro's for APS: awsome custom FMIC and ductwork (no bumper beam removal), Garret BB Turbos, better fuel system upgrade. Technically a better solution IMO. But it does cost thee extra beans.

Personally , I'm patient and will wait for APS. I also haven't counted JWT out just yet.

 

Ill break it down as i see it.

the greddy kit is a good kit ive seen it for 5800 with the intercooler recently

The tdo5-18g turbos are good turbos for the VQ engine however are journal bearing in design wich is older technology and use engine oil as its dual purpose of cooling and lubrication.

To run the greddy kit at higher boost pressures like the aps will run stock you must purchase and install a BOV $250 + labor

You then must purchase and install a profec-e01 495 + labor
plus the timing harness to control timing $50

good idea to run a wideband a/f guage as well if not mandatory
500+ labor

as well as the fuel system is erratic and unreliable at boost pressures over 7 psi so you must up grade the fuel system(500 + labor?).

the greddy intercooler requires the removal of the front bumper bar and relocation or the airbag sensor.

total cost 7595 roughly + the cost of labor to install the turbo kit + the additional labor cost of all the extra items required to run above the stock greddy boost level.

APS

last msrp announced for the APS system was 7995 which would include a cat back exaust however since then i believe they have deleted the exaust and added an upgraded fuel system as standard with the kit.

Lets just say it will probably be anywhere from 7000-8000 bucks as a guess.

The APS system uses garrett BB turbos which are both oil cooled and water cooled. By using this kind of turbo efficiency and spool time should exceed the greddy turbos by at least 10%

The APS system comes standard with a bov

The APS system comes standard with an Air cooled cast aluminum oil pan.

The APS policy comes standard with a return live fuel system with 500cc injectors which will main tainsufficient fuel pressure for 12 psi of boost pressure as well as the injectors do not require modification of the factory injector looms unlike the greddys 440cc injectors do.

The APS intercooler is designed around the 350Z therefore the stock bumper bar stays put as well as the intercooler pluming is of eaqual length to the turbos which allows more efficient flow of air.

Whatever em system that is running the aps system has all ready been tested to 10 psi and is said to be able to control up to 12 psi of boost pressure without any other modifications to the fuel system(of course the rods will probably fail) I believe the target psi of the APS system out of the box is 8 psi but it can be tuned higher depending on how far you want to push the limits.

From what i see to run the same boost pressure between the two systems costs roughly the same amount of money however With the APS kit you get higher quality and better performing componets my vote would be for APS
add up the total cost =

 

Greddy kit works and has proven itself to be fairly relaible thus far out of the box. Although it was engineered over a yrs time it still seems they cut a few corners and there are a few things that need to be replaces ex: gaskets, etc
It has a few compromises not using BB Turbos and its fuel managment system leaves a little to be desired. the one big thing as mentioned above it the removal of the bumper reinforcment. Those are all the negatives I see in an otherwise quality system especially if it gets CARB its still ery worthwhile if you can live with the above or fix or make it better.


The APS on the other hand seems extremely WELL engineered and is very complimentary to the Z33 it is engineered to work within the confins of the whole car with little if no compromises from what I can tell and has addressed many if not all the shortcomings of the greddy to boot! That in itself speaks well for this company ready to join the fray into the FI market for the ZED.

If and when it comes to the fore in Sept I ll be taking a good look at it but if I had to make a choice RIGHT now then for me its APS all the way. Although im interested in JWT's also but the choices you give in this thread are Greddy or APS.

APS for me then!

 

Well DAMN! Since when was that a must! Why must you buy a e-01?

 

Alright, alot of people complaining about the gaskets, I'm guessing your talking about the wastegate gaskets? The gaskets are fine, I can probably guarantee you that installers are not torquing them down enough. It's a tight spot and I can see how it's tough to get in there and do it, but mine and others I know are just fine. Same with the new exhaust manifold bolts, everyone I talk to says they torqued them down good and used loc-tite and they never backed off, so maybe this is why others are having issues with that.

 

Well its not a must however you have to have a way to re adjust the timing and fuel maps if you want to run more boost than the stock greddy system. If you want to run 5.6 psi and leave it at that you dont necessarly need to retune the system however then you wont run the power level the APS kit does.

You could use a laptop i believe instead of the profec e-01 to tune the the e-manage however you wouldnt have as userfriendly as a setup or be able to view the display while driving which datalogs and has a boost readout ect.

Also the profec allows u to adjust boost and other paramaters on the fly.

 

Hey thanks for your overview...............does cost a few more beans though the APS TT will deliver a few more ponies (also does include a fuel system to support up tp 500 tire HP)...........and a path for really crazy power .......up to 450 to 500 tire Horsepower off the dyno jet................ with only the addition of the APS test pipes,catback system, and computer remap (and maybe a set of forged pistons and a set of billet con rods).

Peter

APS

 

The base Greddy kit, as Squill mentioned, is not ready for 8psi without some extra mods.

The fuel system, in my opinion, is the biggest constraint...since there is NONE! Just 440cc injectors, but no fuel pump or FPR. Squill, you are close, but a Walbro 255 and Aeromotive FPR and some lines are fittings are all you need for a pretty robust fuel system...probably good for 10psi or so. Total parts would run about $300 max...not $500. Are you starting to lose your WesternUSGenious status or what??

To solve the timing issue, you need the Greddy timing harness for $30, and the Profec so you can raise boost and dial in the retard and fuel. As Squill mentioned, you dont NEED the Profec, but you do need a laptop, the software, and cable to program the eManage....and then some other cheaper basic boost controller to raise boost. So its easier just to get the Profec for about $450,and kill all the birds with one stone.

The reason I would go Greddy is simply because they have a US office here near Los Angeles, and they have a good reputation, and pretty good contact with most good tuners and retailers. So personally, even if I could do it again, I would go Greddy, and spend the extra $2000 to optimize the Greddy kit.

And yes...the stock Greddy paper gaskets are really bad. Even if you tighten down properly, I can almost guarantee they will eventually blow out. Lets face it, ALL exhuast type gaskets should never be made of paper.....and thats what the Greddy kit used to come with. It is my understanding they have recently switched to the good metal gaskets that many of us have already switched to. The Greddy studs, even if properly bolted down into the head, and really a poor design. There is no excuse for using a stud with only 6 threads of depth that gets inserted into the head with 11 threads of depth. By using the Greddy studs, you end up with a very weak connection....no question. Sure, you could probably never have a problem, but why did they take a short-cut? It was almost laziness...becuase the deeper studs certainly wouldnt cost a whole lot more...same thing with the gaskets.

The APS turbo units are really nice...BB's and water cooled...nice! But realistically, the main benifit of BB turbos in increased turbo longevity. Yes, you get slightly increased efficiency and spool up, but the biggest benifit is the bearings and turbo last longer. But the fact is the turbos on the Greddy kit will almost certainly last longer than the motor, as long you practice proper cool down and oil change techniques.

So although the APS has its advantages, in my eyes, they are not enough to outweigh the lack of state-side presence, in the event of problems. The Greddy kit is proven...lots of installations, and plenty of learning. It's certainly not perfect out of the box...but it has great potential, and a low price of entry into the F/I work. And you can cruise around at 5-6psi for a while until you save up for the upgrades!

Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

if you really need a boost controller you can make one for about 10 bucks worth of vacuum and t fittings...ive done it before and its a very simple mod.

 

OK, now you are making me rethink everything!

I am going FI in the near future and now REALLY can't decide which kit to purchase.

Keep up the good work guys.

 

From what I've read I like the APS setup better, but we really don't have enough data to make an accurate comparison. I don't think you can really compare them until we get:
-finalized details of APS kit
-a bunch of people with APS kit installed, running, etc.
-a bunch of APS dynos at different psi, with different mods, etc.

 

Can you expect a bolt-on FI to be perfect out of the box? I'm pretty sure so far most if not all FI application will have some quirks. But in any case, the Greddy is a pretty good kit and they made some enhancement on the recent version. I've seen cast oil pan, I've heard of new studs and gasket. There are plenty of proven Greddy kitted Z out there so only time will tell how the APS kit looks when it is released.

 

The choice really comes down to this.

Greddy TT with FMIC for $5600-5800 street price and $2000 in upgrades

Or the APS kit for $7800 (est. street price)

The items that the Greddy kit will never have are the Ball-Bearing turbos, and that neat vertical draft intercooler.

The items that the APS kit will never have are external wastegates, and a programmable piggyback ECU (from what we've been told)

We could debate the benfits/drawbacks of both designs for decades and never come to a solution. I love the beauty of having choices in the TT arena. Good Luck!

 

What is the difference between an external wastegate vs. an internal wastegate? Which one is better?

 

Well one type of wastegate is not really any better than the other, if corectly sized in both cases. Each type of wastegate performs exactly the same function, that is to waste excessive exhaust gas to control turbo pressure to a predetermined value. It could be argued that the intergral type is far more compact and packages better with less installation hassles. The remote style of wastegate does have some application and we have used this style previously...........though there is no benefit in the 350 Z TT system.

Regards

Peter

 

exactly...the wastegate is there to hold your boost to a certain limit......if you want to run 30 psi, the internal will do it just fine. But if you want your turbo that wants to run at 30 psi only boost to 6 or 7 psi, and internal might not be able to hold it (depends though, as the turbo I run in my 280 ZX is good for 280-30 psi on the peak end, yet I can run down to 7 spi and its just an internal wastegate as well.

As for the kits themselves, APS certainly makes top end stuff. The fact that is uses watercooled turbos is of little concern to me....I've run turbos with and without them and found it makes zero difference so long as the turbo is well engineered and its kept within its limits. What is attractive about the APS kit is its completeness........making it very well suited to the US customer who might not know what else is needed to truly make a reliable turbo kit.

All in all though, they are for different types of customers, and I think there is room for both in the market

 

Thanks for your input...... though it's well worth considering the real benefits of water cooled turbos v non watercooled turbos.

The main benefit of water cooling the turbo is the greatly extended service LIFE of the CHRA (centre housing and rotating assembly) as this was always the achilles heel of the modern gasoline turbocharger. This is the only reason that all late model factory gasoline turbos are watercooled and when you consider the small expense to water cool the turbos.....well it's silly not to do so.

I have seen plenty of non watercooled turbos on gasoline engines requiring significant overhaul work and in some cases complete replacement of the turbo due to bearing failure as the comp and turbine wheels wear out due to contacting the housings by 20,000 miles.....and this can be avoided by simply water cooling the turbos.

In my view this is money very well spent..........look at it as a little turbo insurance..........for much greater turbo reliability as most turbos are very expensive to replace!


Peter

APS

 

APS, I disagree with your assessment of BB vs. conventional bearing longetivty. The Mits turbos that Greddy uses are designed for 100,000 miles as long as proper oil changes and cool down techniques are adheared to. From experience, we rarely see modern bearing failure prior to engine failure or engine destruction. Yes, the older and more crude turbo designs had longevity issues, but many of those issues have been sorted out in the more modern turbo designs. BB is a great solution, but it's not fair to say that conventional turbos will break down after 20,000miles. If they are properly assembled, balanced, engineered, and synth oil and 3000-5000 miles changes...I just dont see it happening. Talk to some of the people that race Greddy turbos on the track....the turbo is usually the last thing to fail...even in race conditions.

And you and I both know there are many in the turbocharging community that feel that BB turbos were overhyped. Sure...the benifits are there, but for the most part....negligible. The real efficiency in turbo design comes from properly matching the turbo, housing, wheels, etc..e.tc...to the engine and application at hand.

Yes, internal wastegates allow easier installation, no question about that. But external wastegates, generally speaking, are usually better at avoiding creep, and tend to be more responsive, especially in high HP applications. This is why every super high HP application I have seen use large external wastegates.

That said, you guys seem to have built a great kit...cant wait to see the first USA installs and dynos.

Just my .02

 

Hey thanks for your reply.....though I'm sorry to say that you're information is somewhat out of date....here's the reasons why........not trying to be a smart a*s.........though I feel this will benefit many forum members.

1) Ball Bearing Turbos. These originally were not designed with a view to improved durability. Although as it turns out from many years of in field testing by Garrett engineers the Dual Ball Bearing turbos are far more durable than the sleeve bearings that they replaced. The original reason for the DBB design was improved turbo resonse. Unless you have the resources and scientific test equipment to conduct true back to back testing/comparisons with identical compressor and tubine wheels it would be impossible to draw any sensible and proven conclusion. Both IHI and Garrett have done this R and D work and publically published the results to their peers in engineering circles. These results are well known and accepted by professional engineers and motor companies world wide.

2) Water Cooled Turbos. The latest generation of Mitsubishi turbos in common with all IHI and Garrett turbos are water cooled. EG Mitsubishi TDO4 turbo on the WRW, IHI turbo on the STI, Mitsubishi turbo on the EVO, are a few examples of modern OEM turbo applications where water cooled turbos are utilised. In fact I'm not aware of any OEM Gasoline turbo applications in the last 10 years where water cooled turbos have not been utilised. To finish on this issue utilising non water cooled turbos is using very out dated turbo technology............ of course it's much cheaper to avoid watercooled turbos.......though a false economy in reality.

3) Wastegates. The only reason for installing an external waste gate is if one cannot utilise a large enough internal wastegate. It's really is that simple. The internal wastegate in the APS/Garrett dual ball bearing turbo is approx as large in diameter as most common external wastegates...and has superior exhaust gas flow for a number of reasons. Most if not all OEM gasoline turbo applications utilise internal wastegate technology as it's the combination of turbine wheel flow and wastegate design which governs total exhaust gas flow.

Thanks for your kind words on the APS TT system and I'm sure that the US market will support many brands of FI product and it's great for members to have such a wide choice.

Thanks

Peter