Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

I do not think this is going to refer to one single intake... but in general on 04.5 and up...

It must be understood though that this is from findings on ONE vehicle... It needs to be proven that it does this on multiple then we will have an answer...

houseofheil

http://www.afefilters.com/54-10482%2...z%20review.htm

While the rest of the industry was gaining 5-6 hp, aFe's fine-tuning, attention-to-detail expertise netted them an astonishing 21 hp and an asphalt-shredding 19 ft-lbs. of torque. How exactly did aFe achieve such a huge power gain? The answer is in the design.
++++++
Mission Statement:
We are in business to provide an exceptional value for our customers by offering the highest quality automotive products that will enhance their vehicles performance. We shall do so in an ethical manner....
----------------------------------------------

I expect AFE will change/update their website content on Monday Morning,
right, AFE?
It is the ethical thing to do...

Thanx!
S.

undrgnd

iTrader: (2)

Don't hold your breath. They didn't get to where they are, charging $500. for a $150. item, driven by ethics. Can you spell greed? I would drop dead if they corrected their ad material or reduced their prices significantly.

ZinMiami

iTrader: (2)

Jason,

How much would you say needs to be ground down on that rear edge of the box to get a good seal but allow the hood to close properly? From the looks of it only the curved edge closest to the fender has to come down a bit. I think the rest of the box is ok.

What do you think. I have sent numerous emails to AFE to see if it was just mine but you results prove it is a general design issue. Since they don't seem to respond to my request for another box I was going to grind the one I have down a bit. I just wated a second opinion on where and how much to grind.

By the way this unit retails for $571 but no dealer I found charges that. In fact I got mine for a chunk of change less than retail but still paid a premium over competing products. I was mostly curious and wanted to see for myself what this intake was about so I didn't mind paying the premium.

Given the results of the dynos and the fitment issues that are obviously not a one-off I would not do it again if I had it to do over.

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

Jason,

When I do controlled pre/post dyno testing, I always have an OBDII scanner plugged in to monitor engine coolant temps (makes a big difference) and I also monitor the air temperature as seen by the MAF (makes a big difference).

If the temperatures can't be held constant to a realistic degree it basically invalidates the test results. If the design of the mod makes it impossible to hold temperatures constant IE as a result of its design, then the results must be taken for what they are.

I suspect that the "other" intake you tested was ingesting hot air from the engine compartment. This can very easily cause the results you measured. When the ECU senses higher air inlet temperatures it pulls back timing to reduce the tendency for ping. The ECU is trying to protect the engine. If the air inlet temperature is increased even further, it will pull timing even more and start decreasing the A/F ratio. All of this will significantly reduce the power output.

I've seen it in action and have it all documented. I've performed a parametric scan of dynos at a range of engine coolant temperature (from low to high) and air inlet temperatures (from low to high) to map out what happens as these variables change.

So yes, it is interesting to see the effect of temperatures Vs power output, timing and A/F ratio. There are even knees in the curves when you go to extremes.

If you weren't monitoring the MAF inlet temperature during the test, you may still be able to get an indication of what was happening by looking at the A/F ratio. If you see it went pig rich during the run, it may be an indication of possible high inlet temperatures.

If you find it went lean, that would suggest the flow dynamics (reynolds number and/or recirulation zones) are being physically altered in a way that cannot be fixed without a design change.

It is also possible that the intake you tested relies on forward movement of the car (with the hood closed) for it to get the cold air it needs. Then again, it may just be loosing HP no matter what you try.

Tony

EDIT: the thermal mapping I did was performed on a 2004.5.

Z BOY

iTrader: (41)

what is the normal margin of error on the typical dyno, anyway?

grasshopper

Sorry, people for not chiming in earlier. Been rather busy launching a line of stainless steel exhaust systems for diesels. 28 pages wow... the last time I checked there was only 24. I wonder how much longer this is going to go.

First of all, I want to thank Jason for arranging the dyno at R&D and the time he spent on getting all of us some independant data. I also want to thank him for his unbiased assessment of our intake kits. I was present at R&D and saw for myself the horsepower and torque numbers of our kit, of the stock air intake kit and the other aftermarket kit which will remain unnamed until Jason has had an opportunity to determine the reason for the numbers we saw.

I acknowledge that we did not see the 21 horsepower gain that we have claimed. As a result, I will recommend to my top management that we tone down our claims until we obtain more definitive results. I hope to make correction on the product review on our website shortly. I will also recommend that we reduce our MSRP prices so that our kits are more in line with our competition. When that's going to happen, I can't promise.

The numbers we saw were pretty much in line with the gains we saw on our Mustang dyno when we dyno'd our vehicle right after installing our kit. We did not see the type of gains we claimed until our vehicle was driven several hundred miles and the ECM was allowed to adjusted to new airflow dynamics.

I know that Jason reset the ECM but what does resetting ECM actually do? Does a "reset" put the ECM back to a preset "stock" configuration or to a "open or blank" status where the ECM is looking for an airflow to which it can configure itself. If a "reset" just puts it back to the preset stock, wouldn't some miles still be needed to reconfigure the ECM to a non-stock airflow characteristic. I hate to ask but maybe Jason could check into that.

Like Jason, I am curious to the disparity we saw between the results between our intake kit and the other intake kit. A spread of 12 hp is not insignificant. Had the vehicle been on an 03 or early 04 rather than the 04.5 and the other intake kit showed the traditional 5-6 hp gain, would the aFe intake still resulted in additional 12 hp? Something to consider. I don't know if the process we went through in dyno'ing this 350Z answered questions or raised even more questions.

Given the competitive nature of this market, I have to agree that our kit appears to be overpriced. Therefore, I will also recommend that we reduce our MSRP prices so that our kits are more in line with our competition. Given the difference in quality we saw between our kit and the other kit, I don't think we will ever be priced at the same level. However, I believe we can be more competitive.

Secondly, I acknowledge that the fitment of the heat shield could be better. We thought that we had enough clearance between the A/C line but it appears that when the heat shield is moved over to make that clearance, it causes a problem with clearance with the hood. I think some minor trimming of the heat shield so that it doesn't push the hood up is in order and I will push to get those changes done. When they are done, I will inform those who have already bought the kit and replace their heat shields with a new one.

I also saw a difference in size between the carbon-fiber top filter and inverted-top filter. I have already sent ZinMiami an inverted-top filter and if there is anyone that has a carbon-fiber top who would prefer an invert-top filter should PM me and I will send them an invert-top filter to replace their carbon-fiber top filter.

I don't think I can say anything that will change the opinions of those that think we purposely over-inflated our dyno results to mislead. So I'm not going to try. We stated the numbers that we saw, that's all. If anyone is in the Corona area, you are welcome to come by and look at our facility and look at the binder of dyno charts that we got during the development of this kit.

Thanks again, Jason.

Roggan

Fair enough! I think that is pretty much the best responce you can expect, AFE just regained atleast some trust from me.

BTW do you still think the '94 BMW 325 filter gives a 42hp gain?

/Roger

undrgnd

iTrader: (2)

No thanks AFE. I know you run a business and you have corporate goals to satisfy, and they will take precedence over a very small, insignificant group of potential customers. In the past few months there has been plenty of opportunity to make things 'right' and possibly regain some respect - and you made your choice. Your motivation is plain: You would rather make a large profit from a small number of customers rather than a smaller incremental profit from a large number of customers. I wouldn't buy your intake if it was cheaper than the rest, just on principle. I never have nor will I ever support a dishonest business, especially one as blatant as yours. Everyone has to make their own decisions, and I'm sure some will still buy your product, just because it's more expensive, therefore it must be better. Thanks to everyone here who took the time and resources to test this intake.

ZinMiami

iTrader: (2)

Grasshopper,

I have in fact as you cited, recieved the inverted filter. I am happy with the fact that you did act and replace this to satisfy me as a customer. I am looking forward being able to get a revised airbox that will alleviate the fitment problems I have experienced. I have made a few modifications to fix some of it but it is not as 100% as hope your revised unit will be.

You have my email address and my physical address. Please keep me on your list to recieve a revised airbox once available.

cvt

iTrader: (1)

i believe something is fishy going on as jason has said. the fact of the matter is jason dynoed intakes that gained power in past cars...but this particular car lost power. is there a way we can see the actual dyno graph so we can look at the overall power curve and a/f ratios? i believe:

1)yes the afe does not make 21whp. no inatke does. but just looking at the design of the intake suggest it should make power. how much exactly is still up in the air untill another test is done.

2)jason did a dyno of another intake that made power previously but lost power in this particular dyno. that's odd and i'm sure it's why jason is tossing and turning at night thinking about.

3)afe has been understanding about the pricing so far. at least they recognize that their original price was over inflated...but to be fair ALL intakes are over priced...think about it. it's just an aluminum tube and a filter...anyone on this board can make a homemade intake on their own using no more than the rubber clamps, intake tubing that houses the mafs, a filter, etc. for well under $100. i mean everyone hails the popcharger as the 'ultimate intake of price/performance'...get real...i can make my own pop charger for less than the 120 stated on websites and so can many people...but many peoplle still buy it.

4)at least afe has come in and admited they stepped on their own crank on outrageous claims. i don't see injen comming in here apologizeing that their intake does not produce 17whp or k and n that their intake produces 10.1 whp....i have never seen an independent dyno from either company that even comes close to the claim they produce that was so meticulously done as the one jason did for afe. find me a before and after independent dyno done on the same day with an injen claiming 17whp...or a k an n typhoon claiming 10.1 (actually i've scanned the net and i have not found NAY dynos of the typhoon...yet people agee 'it's one of the best intakes out there'..please). another example is stillen exhaust. they claim 14whp (which is absurd) but zmag had done an independant dyno and saw that they actually make half the claimed numbers. forget about the turbo mag dyno. you think stillen got their name on that mag for free? oh please. an $1100 exhaust that makes 8whp...wow...i've seen plenums and spacers make that at the 1/4 of the price.

....just some things to consider. just looking at the intake it really does look like a great design. but can anyone tell me why the 'other' intakes are so much better? i'm betting that had jason dynoed those 'other' intakes that same day with the afe we would be in for a shock...and that is why jason is keeping mum on this 'intake' that lost power on that day but previously made more power on past dynos...that is why another test is required. can you imagine the uproar if the intake he dynoed that lost 8WHP was the popcharger?? LOL....oh the uproar it would create...

Z BOY

iTrader: (41)

random response to cvt's good post:
hehe. okay, i'll say it. when i dyno'd the popcharger on my z, it lost 5 hp. now, that may be within the normal margin of error for a dyno, or the ecu blahblahblah, but there it is.
one thing i don't like about the afe i saw is that it had a metal housing. how can that be good? can you say heat soak? i knew that you could.
one consistent thing i have noticed is that with very few exceptions, independent dynos posted here never produce the numbers claimed by the manufacturer. its just a fact of life.
just my .02.

houseofheil

.
.
Amazing....
False advertising becoming an accepted fact of life.
.
I hope the airbag manufacturers aren't doing the same thing.
...and I hope the tire manufacturers aren't either,
...and the pharmaceutical companies.
I hope my home fire-detector and carbon-monoxide detector help protect my family AS ADVERTISED.

There is a good reason we have laws against false advertising.
An intake may not be life-or-death, but to claim 21HP when it only does 8HP, (just as little/much as any other intake in the market, of course - its an intake, after all) is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
And you can't tell me that it took a buncha folks on an Internet message board to put together a quickie test to figure that out.
This company is obviously lying, and they have a history of lying.
(something about a BMW filter product-thingy making 40 HP?)
And those Dyno charts on their website? These guys are as bad as email scam artists.
Avoid this company like the plague..they are all talk, talk, talk.
The intake is still on the website, still for sale, still claiming 21HP gain.
The first message response to call BS on this was dated July 21. (see page#1 of this thread).

I'm sorry, but this kinda sh*t just chaps my ***.
There are plenty of ways to make good money honestly.
The Hydrazine (Motordyne Engineering) plenum spacer was advertised carefully, after extensive, scientifically controlled testing. Even then the advertised HP gain was on the conservative side of the range. (I have no relationship with him - business or personal - other than I bought his spacer). But he is a perfect example of ethics in business...and he has a loyal following for his character as well as his products.
The products fit perfectly, achieve what they claim, and are priced fairly.
If I spend my hard-earned money on products, I expect AT LEAST that.
</rant>

Roggan

Yes i agree that its indeed false marketing to claim unresonable gains, in AFE's case we are talking gains that are not physically possible on a modern well built car, and i think that EVEN IF AFE's dyno showed 21hp gain that they would make sure to test it again and at a second location/dyno to make sure that the "fantastic" gains where true before publishing them in sales documentation and on their website to market the product.

I have said this before and i say it again, a company that markets a filter and a piping(fitted to stock MAF etc) and claims it increase 42RWHP(!) on a '94 BMW 325 can NOT be trusted, that is so obiously somewhere around 400% beyond what is physically possible with ANY filter no matter how good it is. No company that has even remote knowledge in engine tuning would claim such gains!?!?

/Roger

Z BOY

iTrader: (41)

hydrazine was one of the exceptions i had in mind in my last post.

undrgnd

iTrader: (2)

houseofheil

You are dead on. Exactly what I meant to say, were I as eloquent... Unfortunately, it's going to take more than this forum to abstain from patronizing this company to have any effect on their practices. But at least I feel better knowing that they will not profit one red cent from me.

Wotnot

...but I will say this. I just ordered the K n N Typhoon which has been used by many here on this forum with very positive results.

I'm always open to new products, but in this case, the tried and true consistently well produced and respected product, priced fairly will be getting my hard earned cash.

Happy Motoring

NTRIGUE

I hope aFe can appreciate how many more customers they would have if they
...sold the intake for $250
...claimed 10HP or less

You are just playing with fire when you advertise impossible gains and charge impossible prices.

rubAdub

Way to go guy! I'm a noob and you just caused 30 pages of Catastrophe!
kudos go to you!

you got rolled up!


look at this leaf blower intake.....
leaf blower intake

GlenRoseFireFighter

one thing the guy does know how to design, a long @$$ thread!