Updated the first post.

Too bad powerlab doesn't want to join in since their spacer falls right into that price range. Take a look at the dyno posted above that includes the angled spacer, let me know what you think. If you have a compelling reason then I'll try to reach Z1 to provide a unit for test, otherwise I'll leave it out.

 

^I find that strange after all the hooplah that went along with introduction of powerlabs spacer... I recall many ppl calling out the MD spacer because of the price difference.

I still say MD ftw!

 

Here is a thread with a Stock Plenum vs Kinetix SSV plenum. Stock did better...Talk about Bling

https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...ml#post7880351

 

Thanks for the link.

I was able to get in touch with Kinetix Racing and they informed me that the SSV is now improved and renamed to the Velocity Manifold (looks very similar at a quick glance, but the geometry is a little bit different at a closer inspection), their website mentions a gain of 30whp at the top end on a stock NA car compared to the stock plenum (reminds me of the target RPM range cosworth is addressing with their plenum).

I asked them to see if they are willing to provide one for my test, but haven't heard back from them yet.

http://www.kinetixracing.com/new-ssv...zg3503-06.aspx

 

Wow! It seems Intense was all for it on the AZ350Z website...
http://www.az350z.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14382&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

They have some tough talk going on over there.

 

Gabe,

We would be happy to participate in dialogue concerning a plenum spacer shootout if the terms made sense. Realistically, and to keep things fair for all potential parties involved, a plenum spacer shoot out (as with ANY shoot out) would include:

1. All parties (manufacturers) invited to interact in amicable dialogue to:
A. Determine a location that all agree on to be independent and objective -- not pre-determined by a party who has yet to attempt contacting all manufacturers via written, documented (or at least a phone call) professional communication.
B. Determine an objective, third party media source to cover the shoot out. This means that a magazine or tv media publication cover the event to provide as much exposure in achieving an empirical outcome that will help the whole community -- not just 1 thread.
C. Determine who will and who won't be in attendance. Either ALL manufacturers attend, or NO manufacturers attend.

2. The testing include ALL plenum spacer manufacturers, not just a list of pre-conceived agenda which excludes prominent manufacturers like AAM. The exclusion of certain manufacturers in the list beg the obvious question of why, if this was really, in the true nature of a plenum spacer shootout, why are certain manufactures excluded?

3. The testing, needs to be conducted on a bone stock, 3.5L motor. Having the testing done on a custom, 1-off 4.15L high compression project is not conducive to a true test that will benefit the great majority of VQ35 end-users. The results of this testing will only benefit one end user and one plenum spacer manufacturer, and thus isn't beneficial for the general population of VQ owners.

These terms would seem to be overly obvious, and yet barring the minor exceptions of things brought up by other users, hasn't come to light until now. One has to wonder why Fony, from Motordyks, is so trigger happy to make personal attacks and reference a local thread that has NOTHING to do with a plenum spacer shoot out on a 3.5L motor.

Once again, I'm wholly unsurprised by Fony's desperation here. Sales hurting much? Try diversifying, it worked for us. But then, when your only hustle is making a piece of material that fits under a plenum; and an lousy exhaust, I suppose you would be intimidated by a shop that builds 1000whp+ VQ's and 8-second street cars.

Darren.

 

 

I would just stick with your stock with spacer....or get the cosworth....I would not fall for the bling...

 

Darren,

Good to see you in here.

One of the goal in this thread was to have an open discussion in this forum prior to conducting this experiment and I'm glad that one of the more prominent VQ shop, Intensepower, and plenum upgrade builder, MD, have chimed in for this discussion. I hope that at the end of this test, some good results will be available where all parties involved will feel comfortable with the results and test conditions.

To be honest with you, I never intended to do a shootout otherwise following your guideline would have been the ideal and best case. This test, as you probably know from the email I sent, was born due to my disappointing dyno results with the Cosworth compared to my previous MD setup. Furthermore, this test would probably never have started if I didn't sell my MD setup prior to putting the car on the dyno. Regardless of this fact, at the current state I'm currently a little uncomfortable, and I'm sure others as well, as to what intake plenum would work best for my car or for NA cars in general. I know there are some plenum to plenum upgrade test comparison, but to find one that is not FI can prove to be an almost impossible task. If there were enough and reliable tests done comparing setups side by sides, then it definitely would make my life easier, but unfortunately there aren't any other then the slightly outdated one from Nissan Sport Magazine.

I can only agree with you that my engine would be different then most other NA VQs but it's also a rarity to find cars with the same mods and since we are talking about plenum spacers, from revup to nonrevup engine, this upgrade has always showed very repeatable solid gains and we all know that cam are quite different between the two. Moving over to FI cars, things are even more dramatically different from build to build. What I'm getting to is that there is always some general consensus on what product works well and I'm hoping that this also holds true for this test on my car that breathes a little more, given the bigger displacement (4.15) and slightly higher compression (11.0). Let me know if you think otherwise.

Don't get the idea that I am a blind MD supporter. I don't have a hidden agenda and if I think a product is good or if I have information that is helpful to anyone then I don't mind sharing it to anyone. I won't lie to you that I like his products, but on the other hand I did get rid of my MD setup in favor of the Cosworth. Similar to my MD exhaust, I love it but I honestly tell people my likes and dislikes about it. I'm sure Tony has some griefs about it, but I tell it how it is.

For obvious reason, it's impossible for me to comply with all of your requirements for the shootout and I can only leave it up to you to decide whether or not you would like to partake in this test.


I actually have the Cosworth already and it gave me doodoo results in my preliminary test, but I haven't given up on it yet. Costing over 1k I'm sure there is something to it

I definitely will not pay to test the Kinetix plenum and will only test it if they lend me one. I won't lie to you that, it does intrigue me though, but not nearly as much as the Cosworth did.

 

Tony & Darren.....RU members dont fight each other..Tony....why start this war with PL....Not kool man.

 

Sorry if I missed it...but are you FI or NA.....With my FI setup ...I gained over 40whp using the Cosworth....I was happy with it when I was 800whp...Now that I am going for way more power....I am not sure if I have to go with the CJM custom plenum...we will see.

 

Disclaimer: I have purchased and installed Motordyne products (none directly from MD). I've been happy with the products and very happy with the service they have provided. That being said...

"A" is fine although trying to get all manufacturers to agree would be like herding cats. "B" is fine, except are you saying that unless you have major media coverage (non-internet) that it isn't worth your while? "C" makes perfect sense to keep things objective.

There are plenty of highly reputable product comparisons done that don't include every possible manufacturer. There are all kinds of reasons for coming up with a list. You might select the ones that are most easily available, most widely used, under a certain price point, etc... To say that every manufacturer must be represented or none at all sounds like a convenient non-starter.

I agree completely with this one.

Gee Daren, weren't you the one that mentioned "professional communication" as I highlighted above? Your juvenile butchering of a person's and company's name doesn't reflect very highly on either your or your company's professionalism. That is the type of response that I might expect from a junior high kid, not a responsible adult.

Some of your observations about how a comparison should be conducted were outstanding. Don't spoil it.

 

That last "plenum shoot out" was featured in Nissan Sport Magazine. Is it really too much to ask to have 3rd party media coverage? It's another layer of credibility to help ensure that the test is fair and honest for all the manufacturers involved.



He didn't say that every manufacturer must be represented. He said that every manufacturer should be invited and given the opportunity to participate.



As do I. The OP's motor is not the appropriate setup for this test. The majority of the VQ community puts plenum/intake mods on a stock NA motor. It's a relatively cheap mod that is typically one of the first mods that VQ owners do before they ever move on to doing cams, going FI, etc.



I can understand how the open hostility can rub some members here the wrong way. However, this latest drama started with Tony (Hydrazine) unprofessionally posting OT spam posts in other unrelated threads which called out Darren and tried to back Intense into a corner. He did this without first trying to PM or call Intense. The OP apparently sent an E-mail to Intense or PowerLab, but he *cough* suspiciously wreaks *cough* of being in cahoots with Tony towards Intense in this thread when he also had not attempted to PM or call Intense directly before proclaiming Intense's lack of interest. There is a history of conflict and hard feelings between Tony and Intense that predates your membership on this site. So perhaps you are unaware of the history and the back story involved(as many are).

Needless to say... myself and the guys at Intense thought that this petty BS with Tony was behind us. We have left him alone, let the issues rest, and tried to move on after the last pissing match with him over the introduction of the PowerLab spacer. We were allies on the Recon Unit in our campaign to inform and rid the community of scammers like Mark Gust at SGP and Scott Bush at RA.

However, Tony has decided to rekindle/instigate the drama and bad blood yet again over a mod as minor-league as a plenum spacer (when compared to all the other mods available for the VQ). The plenum spacers available on the market are all within a few horsepower of each other on a bone stock NA motor. All of this BS plenum war for bragging rights over a couple of horsepower?!?!?!? Whoop dee f*cking doo. Gimme a break. While Intense is building 1000+whp cars (there are at least 2-3 in the shop at any given time when I go there; currently a TT Viper build, IIQuickSilverII's Z build, and a Supra)... Tony is still fiddle f*cking and starting drama over a minuscule amount of horsepower for NA. How petty and pathetic.

Why does Tony persist to antagonize and instigate drama with a company whose history of accomplishments in the import tuner world (on numerous platforms including the VQ) far surpass that of his own??? Why doesn't Tony focus his energy, attention, and brilliant engineering skills on something more significant... like designing his own supercharger or turbo kit(s) for the VQ??? Instead, he has chosen to continue fixating on Intense over the PowerLab plenum spacer. Again, it's just petty and pathetic.

 

Hi Darren,

Very good. We are making progress.

1A) I agree. I received the same email as you and Skunk2 and we are publicly discussing it here. I'm good with that. Are you?

1B) Yes, lets do that. Note, this isn't about one thread. First and foremost its about MY350Z.COM. I don't want to hold any "truth test" up based on magazine or TV contingencies but I agree it would be optimal. Otherwise, lets peruse that angle to the maximum practical extent possible but not let it interfere with moving forward.

1C) Yes.

2) No. Let it be any manufacturer that wants to participate. The more the merrier but let it be at their option. ...Motordyne is in.

3) Yes, lets do a comparison on a fully stock vehicle too. I'm all for that. Lets do it on a radical NA build as well. Either way, it will all be a equal comparison on the same car. In fact, lets do several. Fully stock, moderately modified and heavily modified. Will this work for you? I'm down for it.

I havn't made any personal attacks against you. But you can call me all the names you like. Its OK. You can even call me a liar and a scammer,... but... be ready to back it up with real substance. Otherwise, leave out the frivolous name calling. Lets not clog up a good discussion with it.
Lets put our focus onto what the dyno reveals. A fair, objective and public dyno test. At least for me, this isn't a test to see which plenum mod makes the most power. I already know the MREV2/spacer combination will make the most. Its OK.

What is a far more critical point here is "How do we as manufacturers measure up to our advertised claims". The dyno shootout won't just be measuring HP... it will blindly measure our business ethics.

You see what is different here is there has never been a REVUP shoot out among the different manufacturers. Such a test will be of great significance to the Z and G community. The 350Z and G35 community has been asking to see this comparison for a long time.

We all know every plenum mod manufacturers modifications will make power on the non revup engine. Yours too. We can all agree on this yes?

But not only there has never been a formal REVUP shootout... There is a very, very large 800LB gorilla in the room. And its been here since 2005.

Only ONE manufacturer has claimed: "THE PLENUM SPACER DOES NOT WORK ON THE REVUP LOWER PLENUM".
Only one. Motordyne. I have been saying this in threads all over MY350Z, G35DRIVER and many other forums for many years.

I said this before the MREV was invented so I couldn't have announced it out of a profit motive. I say this because it was (is) the truth. This claim came about as the result of the first pre/post dyno of the spacer on the 2005 REVUP. A carefully controlled test at a Church Auto dyno day. Many people were standing around and watching this test. (And I have very carefully retested it again with the same results.)
The spacer not working on the REVUP was the motive for the original MREV being conceived and invented.

From what I have seen, all other plenum mod manufacturers either say nothing about revup performance or say their spacer makes gains on the REVUP lower plenum. You (Intense/powerlab) posted dynos advertising 10+HP on the REVUP in your GB thread.

So we have a very big disagreement here. Either the plenum spacer makes power on a REVUP lower plenum or it doesn't.

Like I said before, you can call me a Scott Bush scammer but be ready to back it up. I already know what the truth is. I've tested it several times so I am going into this test already knowing what the results will be.

So lets do a REVUP shootout. Lets let the dyno publicly reveal our measure of "Truth in advertising." No diversions, no nastiness or unnecessary name calling.
None of that is necessary if the truth is on your side.

I advertise the Motordyne MREV2/spacer combo will produce a "minimum" of 15HP and 18TQ in the upper midrange. I have high confidence in this.
You have advertise your spacer will make 10+HP.
https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...ml#post5057637

If you only answer two questions for me, please answer this:
1) Which modification(s) will meet or exceed their advertised claim?
2) In your opinion, at what threshold does a inaccurate dyno claim become "False Advertising"? (Please define in unit of %)


And no, I am not intimidated by 1000HP, 8 second street cars.

You know what would intimidate me? A mob of angry MY350Z members who just found out they got lied to and ripped off by false advertising. That would be terribly intimidating.

Respectfully,
Tony

 

Hi Mike,

RU allegiance is to the truth. Not to eachother.

Right?

EDIT: And yes, I know war is miserable so it would be best to just make it a fair and accurate dyno shootout.

 

Though I've been a member for such a long time, I didn't really know there was so much drama involved between Motordyne and Intense. I hope that situation doesn't escalate to anything too serious to get this thread locked.

I am only NA. I really thought that the Cosworth was going to be worthwhile especially since all of the Dynos at Cosworth's site and their Castrol builld was all NA. I read that in your epic thread and I can't wait to see more details about that CJM intake, but man there is a lot of work to be done to install that thing. Can't wait to see that vid this Friday.


I sent an email to all three parties (intense, md, skunk2) when I started to think about this test. Intense and MD can testify on my behalf. After a month went buy only Intense didn't reply but I kept them in the loop. I also PMed Intense asking if they got my email but to no avail. I have no hard feeling or playing favorites at all. I like and respect both companies and bought their products. Like I said I've publicly stated issues I've had with MD, it's no secret. Dont' be so quick to judge people...

This was never meant to be the Testament of plenum test and like I said before I'm sure these results will be more useful then looking at those from FI cars. You can't tell me that other build thread's FI or NA don't influence your decision. For example the BC stage2 cam has been dubbed one of the best cam for ALL FI and same goes for the Cosworth Plenum. If you are following my thought process here then tell me how much variance in each of FI builds there are in parts. Regardless of the fact, its going to be good scientific data.

For guys like you with boosted cars a few horsepower is really not big of a deal but for an NA car like mine it really hurts to lose 10hp or tq. With my previous test of the Cosworth I lost 8whp/11wtq and power everywhere under the sun and moon. You can look over my build thread and see the details, as well that I have no loyalty whatsoever to any manufacturer.

 

Why can we all just get along lol!!!!!
This is funny cause i was about to order a plenum spacer either from motordyne or powerlab cause of pricing lmao!!

 

^haha. Yeah the Powerlab is very attractive at that price, also the reason I bought it at the beginning for my G35 from CZP. I still have it but it's on my 350z, but it's the old version of the spacer, else I would have used it for this test. The new one looks a lot better IMO, since the gasket and plenum are each made from one piece now. It also come with a coolant bypass now it seems.

 

stfu... the truth wouldnt look good on you actually....
now go back to figure out if i can get better gas milage out from shell of conoco gas...

a its just a spacer... play 1mm up on down on thinkness, and in the end stock ecu will self adjust(its n/a )...but lets not debate that... now about pricing, thats REAL EASY...one has a really high markup...and its probably not the one that its a single billet piece(way better material and "sweet spot" between the 5/16 in and the 1/2' size...WTF DO YOU EVEN need to versions anyways...and one costs even more??? lolol).

 

I disagree and still don't believe that a plenum test on your motor bears much relevance to the rest of VQ community as a whole. A build of your kind (a 4.15L stroker NA motor) represents less than 1% of the VQ community. In comparison... a stock block motor with a JWT TT kit or a built block (with pistons, rods, and cams) with a Greddy TT kit represent a significant percentage of the FI community and a much larger percentage of the VQ community than your NA stroker build.



Notice that I stated "plenum spacers" in that portion of my post that you quoted. Despite all the hype, the plenum spacers on the market all yield similar gains. It's the free standing plenum designs like the Kinetix SSV and Cosworth that have shown significant differences one way or the other.

Your results with the Cosworth plenum are not surprising. It has already been shown to be a less than stellar NA bolt-on mod and that was quickly discovered by NA guys when the first shipments of the Cosworth plenums arrived in the US. It's old news. The Cosworth seems to shine for moderate power built motor FI setups with an extended rev limit.