I already said, I'm not buying them.

Regarding the testpipe dyno, it wasn't a company car. Rather, it was a G35 customer.

This is what Doug said: "The Borla was left on the car because we did not see any difference in power when we added it by itself with the plenum and cats I also felt once we uncorked the ft end of the exhaust sys then we would need to uncork the rear Borla seemed like a good choice but any good cat back sys should work."

What does he mean by didn't see any difference in power? Did he do dyno comparisons or was this a butt dyno? And, you're right, the Borla does produce different power for different Zs. I've seen 6 hp, I've seen 20 hp but the average is consistantly as RodH called at about 10 hp.

Let's assume you're correct, that you can't dyno a stock airbox. So, let's forget doing that because we don't need to. Let's just dyno the Z for a baseline. Then lets swap out the stock box with a CAI/Popcharger. Whatever the difference between the two dyno runs is the gains attributable to the swap out.

As for the costs of headers for Hondas or BMWs, I have no idea. But, that doesn't matter because I'm only looking at the cost of headers for Nissans. Is there a header that costs more than Crawfords for Nissan? I don't know, maybe there is. Whatever the case, that price when you look at other modifications that produce similar power is high.

And, being firm is not the same as telling someone they should go use the search feature implying that person is ignorant on the subject.

Tell you what. The headers appear to produce some significant performance, both in HP and torque. The product may be soundly designed and manufactured. It appears to be a good product. But, the price is a turd. And, you know what they say about turds. Try as hard as you might, you just can't polish a turd.

 

Apparently you are missing something. Here's what I see. First of all your dyno chart reads in increments of 5, shil01’s reads in increments of 10. That makes a big difference for those out there simply looking at the distance between the 2 lines. 20 nickels might look like more money than 10 dimes but it’s all the same.

My analysis below:

Crawford Baseline – 236 HP, 233 TQ
Shil01 Baseline – 234 HP, 228 TQ

Crawford ‘Package’ – Plenum, header, cats, borla ex., intake???
256 HP , 243 TQ
Peak gains – 20HP, 9 TQ
3800 – 12 HP, 17 TQ
6500 – 23HP, 19 TQ

Shil01 mods - Plenum, borla header, cat pipes, borla ex., injen intake
251 HP , 236 TQ
Peak gains – 17HP, 8 TQ
(I had to eyeball shil01’s chart to come up with the numbers @ 3800 & 6500 so they might not be completely accurate)
3800 – ~11 HP, ~10 TQ
6500 – ~20HP, ~12 TQ

Difference
Peak – Crawford + 3HP, +1 TQ
3800 - Crawford + 1HP, +7 TQ
6500 - Crawford + 3HP, +7 TQ

My point still stands, shil01’s numbers ARE SIMILAR to yours. Remember shil01 baselined 2HP and 5 TQ less than you to begin with. And yes his numbers ARE somewhere near yours. Lets's see, spend more than twice as much for headers and make minimal gains over the cheap borlas or use the money saved for a lot of little goodies like flywheels and such.

Again for those of you who are unsure compare the charts for yourself.

I know you like to argue so have a ball...but the numbers are right there...and ARE VERY SIMILAR.

 

I should have read your previous post carefully. I cropped your above quote to make it easier for me to understand and I see what you're saying. The only uncertainty is the Injen.

For a Borla header that can be bought for $500 or less you get similar horsepower and torque. For $800 more, you can get the Crawford headers for a 1-3 hp and a 1-7 torque gain over the Borla headers.

Nice observation 350Z_Redline.

 

Bottom line, it all comes down to preferences. Do you want to pay the dough to get Crawford's stuff? No? Then why are you still typing in this thread? There are several choices out there and Doug and co. are just giving you another set of options. If you don't like the options, you're free to buy from another source.

 

What's with the ignorant "If you don't like it, get another brand." comments?

You're on a discussion board, and we're discussing price vs. performance on this rather expensive item. If you don't like the discussion, go to another thread.

No one is hating on the brand name. Crawford has proven themselves with the performance of their plenum, but that's not enough for me to blindly purchase anything they make.

All thats being argued is the evidence of benefits for this product. Brand loyalty is fine, but I don't see why they are getting so defensive at the fact that the numbers aren't adding up like they should. If you want to advertise a product's benefits, you need to do it in a controlled environment. This possibly means doing a before after dyno of the headers on a stock third party's 350z. IMO, "come drive our car and you'll see the light" isn't close to enough to maximize sales. Of course i'm assuming the next response will probably be "we're not trying to maximize sales, we're doing this for the community."

Again, I have nothing against the products. In fact i'm just a potential customer requesting solid facts.

 

Here is my old dyno I did the day my Borla was installed. Did base and installed and then did borla dyno. Don't know why you Crawfords guys say Borla = 0 gains. I felt the gains and decent torque for an exhaust too. But I'll tell you what, I do wish I could buy your package now. Nice down low power you got there.

 

Individual, obviously I am not alone in my feelings. I have never said anything negative about the Crawford brand or product. I am not knocking what I have not tried. I am, however, against your approach to publicizing the product you believe in. You love the Crawford. Super! But don't knock everything else that smells like competition just to boost your product. That is all I have ever had a problem with. You sales attitude sucks. That's all. I don't really care who buys what.

To the person who says I love NISMO because everything I have says NISMO I have to reply with a good ole WTF are you talking about? I have NISMO sways and a shift ****! Wow. Does Crawford make either one? I am getting NISMO wheels and clutch. Does Crawford make either one? No. As for the headers I am getting (XERD) they meet my evaluative criteria for headers. As for the rods, pistons, cams, etc. that I am getting, Crawford does not make those products. As for the supercharger I will be getting, well, guess what, Crawford does not make that either. It's not about the Crawford product, it is about the way they are represented. Poorly, IMO.

 

Congrats on those numbers, those numbers and chart look a lot like my dyno I did back in August with Plenum, Pop Charger, Nis headers, no cats, and borla dual. 256.1 & 238.0 peaks. When someone goes in conjunction with FI with a lot of these mods, it's gonna be icing on the cake

 

can't read, what do #s say???

 

this thread is going no where... anyways

you want a more expensive header here you go
http://www.i-m-racing.com/veilheadstai.html
try 2200 for the veilside...

Anyways bottomline you dont like sont buy and thanks HFM for reading the posts I said "I dont think doug meant there is ZERO gain" and I even gave that little explination and oh ya doug replyed a few post later... anyways are there less expensive headers out there definitely are there more expensive ones out there YUP... so I dont really think this requires such a big arguement... especially for something that is in the middle of the market (upper middle but still middle)

-non

 

Whoa, grammar police to the rescue. My 3rd grade teacher and her red pen would've had a field day. Anyways, sorry to get off topic.

 

hmmm....people tend to make spelling mistakes on the comp..and i dont think this was the right time to say it...

i read this whole thread last night and i have some stuff to say.....first of all most of the points here are valid and although not many questions were avoided, there still were some....i have no performance mods on my car yet (waiting for exhaust and cai) and i know that if i made $$ i would prob buy crawford products...they are like the 'mom and pop' shop of Z products...they stand behind what they make and i would trust them....for people that said that "just because i trust you doesnt mean i will buy products blindly" your point is valid...but they did provide whatever proofs they had of gains and i think the low end stuff is important....before reading this thread i had the impression that i wanted the best #'s (low high or wtvr) for the cheapest price....i have a new outlook on that.....the mere fact that if the product defects they wont run away from you like bigcompanies is worth the $$...maybe not 800 extra bucks...but obviously they have a reason for charging that much more...if they 'could' lower the price but arnt..then that would make me mad

 

hey, I am ALL for a good product that has good results, my Plenum was a good investment, I doubt I will get the headers, NOT b/c they don't provide more power, BUT the cost being $1300 PLUS labor, I can't do it. DOes that mean it is a BAD product?? NOPE, does that mean it is a "RIP OF"? NOPE, just out of my range. The Dynos for the Borla doesn;t justify thier price either, so I wont go there. I will probably get teh Borla TD, keep teh Plenum, forget about a CAI (money for NO power is NOT woth it to me), and maybe get pulleys and/or ECU and Grounding kit. Everyone has a different ceiling for what tehy can afford, and that does NOT mean that other products are a RIP of (crap, I had $300 headers on my civic).

Crawford, keep up the good work, and keep thinking of ways to get us more power (expensive and not expensive).

 

The way I see it is that the "package" is making some awesome torque and decent HP increases across a broad RPM range. I know that the Plenum is making a big difference at the top of the range as well as the Borla TD helping out there. My real question is in regards to the HF Cats vs. the Headers. I have been trying to decide which piece is doing what and where. From looking at other DYNOs from people with test pipes and HF cats. It seems as though the headers are really making the biggest difference in the 2500 - 4000 rpm range. Now the question, what is this good for? I would think that anyone who is tracking this car would want to jump all over this. Also daily driving should be a lot more fun with more response and a better "kick" at low RPMs. Will this make a big difference in the 1/4 mile? I think a design such as the Xerd headers would make better gains in that area since the RPMs rarely drop below 4500 when dragging. You may be able to get a better launch and 60ft time with the Crawfords with some good tires though. All in all there are not any other mods besides FI and NOS right now that can claim this type of gain in this RPM range. I think people just need to decide what they are willing to spend for this type of gain and if it applies to the goals they are trying to acheive with their car. For me I want this setup, but only with the Injen CAI and Exhaust, plus an upgraded ECU. NO FI for me for a couple of years.

 

I thought I read somewhere in another thread that if you get headers, don't get the exhaust, and vice versa because one will minimize the power gains of the other?

sounds possible.

Comments?

thanx

 

There are a lot of factors that play into this discussion. An exhaust system from header to the exhaust tips must be designed in a manor that tunes the car to the application you are trying to achieve. Normally aspirated cars need a different exhaust than forced induction cars for example. Also, you can setup an exhaust that will provide more torque or horsepower in different RPM ranges. The wrong setup could lead to results that you do not want. I would not say that having headers with an exhaust is bad at all because in most cases you should gain torque and HP unless the R&D was not done, it may just be a poor combination given one persons particular expectations and the amount of money one may have to fork over.

 

first of all i hope this price includes the borla exhaust
second of all i would absolutely LOVE to see some 1/4 times. I mean maybe all that low end torque will get you sub 2 60 foot times and the rest contribute for unheard of 1/4 mile times with just boltons.

 

Borla makes nothing on the dyno? Numbers vs. price are justified?

Take a look at this....

Plenum, cats, headers $2350
256.7HP 243.0TQ

Intake, exhaust, pullies $1100
257HP 248TQ

 

I'm sorry but I dont think these parts are worth the cash ..... im not trying to be a dick or anything ..... but my XERD headers gave me 17whp and 3wtq for under $750!!!!!!!! ...... how are these parts a deal compared to that?

 

I know some are trying to say that the Crawford stuff is a rip off, I have to say that the Plenum isn't a rip off. I would love to see the #s of a Z with the Plenum, Borla, and test pipes (since that is my plan)