How to rid Understeer? (Long)
12-20-2002, 12:01 PM
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How to rid Understeer? (Long)
Hey guys,
Haven't gotten my Z yet. Could've ordered a Track in Nov, pickup in Jan but I changed my mind. New M3 is awfully tempting BUT now the Z is growing on me again.
I plan on getting in a few track days a year, not a ton but some. So here's my question. I've read that the Z understeers quite a bit at the limit, but I have very little knowledge with tuning a suspension to get the desired result without making things worse. What could be done to dial out the understeer? The following are the only things I could think of:
1) Put on wider tires in the front to try to even up the grip between front and rear. I figure I wouldn't go much wider in the rear b/c the power isn't overwhelming, so maybe up to around 275's? And then get closer to that with the fronts like 265's. Any ideas there? Should you go with the same size all around?
2) Put a softer antiroll bar in the front, and stiffer in the rear. Or just one or the other?
3) Add more camber to the fronts? I'm pretty sure more camber=better grip but you can only go so far without trashing tires (if it's daily driven.) How far would be good to go for a mostly street driven car that will go on the occasional track foray? And the second part is I know that a lot of cars don't have enough camber adjustment, would it need camber plates?
Thanks for any info or help. I know a lot of parts are coming out now that may address this but I'd like to hear from some people that already have their cars and have some experience with this.
Haven't gotten my Z yet. Could've ordered a Track in Nov, pickup in Jan but I changed my mind. New M3 is awfully tempting BUT now the Z is growing on me again.
I plan on getting in a few track days a year, not a ton but some. So here's my question. I've read that the Z understeers quite a bit at the limit, but I have very little knowledge with tuning a suspension to get the desired result without making things worse. What could be done to dial out the understeer? The following are the only things I could think of:
1) Put on wider tires in the front to try to even up the grip between front and rear. I figure I wouldn't go much wider in the rear b/c the power isn't overwhelming, so maybe up to around 275's? And then get closer to that with the fronts like 265's. Any ideas there? Should you go with the same size all around?
2) Put a softer antiroll bar in the front, and stiffer in the rear. Or just one or the other?
3) Add more camber to the fronts? I'm pretty sure more camber=better grip but you can only go so far without trashing tires (if it's daily driven.) How far would be good to go for a mostly street driven car that will go on the occasional track foray? And the second part is I know that a lot of cars don't have enough camber adjustment, would it need camber plates?
Thanks for any info or help. I know a lot of parts are coming out now that may address this but I'd like to hear from some people that already have their cars and have some experience with this.
12-20-2002, 12:14 PM
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) Add more camber to the fronts? I'm pretty sure more camber=better grip but you can only go so far without trashing tires (if it's daily driven.) How far would be good to go for a mostly street driven car that will go on the occasional track foray? And the second part is I know that a lot of cars don't have enough camber adjustment, would it need camber plates?
Thats all I know.
I'm sure someone here can help you with the rest of the questions! I will be interested to see what is said.
12-20-2002, 03:11 PM
#4
Stiffer front and rear bars will help not just a rear a must
New uper control arms which make camber adjustments is a def must.
New shocks and springs help.
Wider front and rear wheels and tires help.
The sway bars made a big difference on our Z.
Our products will be available soon......testing continues Jan 4-6 at Daytona Intl.
New uper control arms which make camber adjustments is a def must.
New shocks and springs help.
Wider front and rear wheels and tires help.
The sway bars made a big difference on our Z.
Our products will be available soon......testing continues Jan 4-6 at Daytona Intl.
12-30-2002, 12:51 AM
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These are things I've been thinking about myself.
1) Grip is grip and handling is handling, don't get confused and sacrifice that much grip for little bit of handling difference. If you increase front tire size it'll help curb the understeer but only increase your grip marginaly. I don't know about you but I would rather understeer through a corner at twice the speed then have no understeer but crawl through a corner. I'd say if your going to spend that much coin to up the tire size, do front and rear and curb understeer another way.
2) dwnshift is right, do wider/stiffer front and rear sway bars. Aftermarket sway bars have to be one of the single largest bang for your bucks regarding neutralizing handling. Aftermarket kits are set up for neutral steering and should clip the understeer problem in the butt.
3) Most camber plates are fully adjustable, it's more a matter of how easy it is to adjust. Most incorporate a good degree of camber adjustment, negative to positive which would include factory setup, so my recomendation is to get the plates and use stock camber settings for everyday driving and adjust to a more agressive agle for track days. You'll still get uneven tire wear but it won't be as bad full time camber adjustment. Note: adjusting camber works wonders for grip levels, especially on tigh, twisty tracks, and can help turn in and responce, however will not help too much at fixing inherent understeer. Basicaly your car car will be able to turn in like it's on rails at a higher speed, however you'll still experience understeer at the limit, though keep in mind the limit will be much higher. Swaybars will go a lot farther then camber plates at neutralizing understeer. Also note that agressive camber angles make the car more twitchy in a straight line, if you think the Z gets sucked into ruts on the street now, get used to always having two hands on the wheel with camber adjustment because your car'll have a mind of it's own.
1) Grip is grip and handling is handling, don't get confused and sacrifice that much grip for little bit of handling difference. If you increase front tire size it'll help curb the understeer but only increase your grip marginaly. I don't know about you but I would rather understeer through a corner at twice the speed then have no understeer but crawl through a corner. I'd say if your going to spend that much coin to up the tire size, do front and rear and curb understeer another way.
2) dwnshift is right, do wider/stiffer front and rear sway bars. Aftermarket sway bars have to be one of the single largest bang for your bucks regarding neutralizing handling. Aftermarket kits are set up for neutral steering and should clip the understeer problem in the butt.
3) Most camber plates are fully adjustable, it's more a matter of how easy it is to adjust. Most incorporate a good degree of camber adjustment, negative to positive which would include factory setup, so my recomendation is to get the plates and use stock camber settings for everyday driving and adjust to a more agressive agle for track days. You'll still get uneven tire wear but it won't be as bad full time camber adjustment. Note: adjusting camber works wonders for grip levels, especially on tigh, twisty tracks, and can help turn in and responce, however will not help too much at fixing inherent understeer. Basicaly your car car will be able to turn in like it's on rails at a higher speed, however you'll still experience understeer at the limit, though keep in mind the limit will be much higher. Swaybars will go a lot farther then camber plates at neutralizing understeer. Also note that agressive camber angles make the car more twitchy in a straight line, if you think the Z gets sucked into ruts on the street now, get used to always having two hands on the wheel with camber adjustment because your car'll have a mind of it's own.
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