Raced 93-98 (?) Mustang...
02-14-2003, 03:56 AM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it me or has this tread on the "Z forum" has turned into an F-Body, Mustang vs Maxima tread LOL
BTW- I have followed the entire discussion and its very interesting
BTW- I have followed the entire discussion and its very interesting
02-14-2003, 07:15 AM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
If "I" knew anything about roadracing? i hope that as a question and not an attempted insult, and you're wrong, it's 90% driver and 10% car, it's obviously evident by going to a track and seeing cars that on paper should lap a few minutes behind a supercar beat it by a LARGE margin.
If "I" knew anything about roadracing? i hope that as a question and not an attempted insult, and you're wrong, it's 90% driver and 10% car, it's obviously evident by going to a track and seeing cars that on paper should lap a few minutes behind a supercar beat it by a LARGE margin.
02-14-2003, 09:57 AM
#44
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by max2000jp
I would disagree with your 90% driver comment. The car plays a crucial role in turning fast laps, especially with a less experienced driver. Some cars are easier to push to their limits making them "faster" for new drivers. The tires and brakes are the most important elements for racing. If it was 90% driver, then Michael Schumacher could race a Ford Explorer on M/S tires and keep average drivers in Vettes, for example. That scenario isnt going to happen......The car plays a more important role than you are crediting it with.
I would disagree with your 90% driver comment. The car plays a crucial role in turning fast laps, especially with a less experienced driver. Some cars are easier to push to their limits making them "faster" for new drivers. The tires and brakes are the most important elements for racing. If it was 90% driver, then Michael Schumacher could race a Ford Explorer on M/S tires and keep average drivers in Vettes, for example. That scenario isnt going to happen......The car plays a more important role than you are crediting it with.
02-14-2003, 11:20 AM
#45
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
Who's to say this can't happen? you're assuming that the vette is driven properly, let it spin off course and an explorer could easily overtake it if he was on hi tail the entire time. the 90% driver comes into play as to how much of the cars ability he can use, you can drive a minute lap car to 3 minutes/lap if you're bad enough, or you could drive it to the maximum potential. when you start talking about equally skilled drivers then car comes into play, but looking at lemans lets you see how much of it is really driver, the field is very level according to performance, yet you get people lapping 20, 30+ seconds behind, why is that in a field where all the cars are restricted to make it even?
Who's to say this can't happen? you're assuming that the vette is driven properly, let it spin off course and an explorer could easily overtake it if he was on hi tail the entire time. the 90% driver comes into play as to how much of the cars ability he can use, you can drive a minute lap car to 3 minutes/lap if you're bad enough, or you could drive it to the maximum potential. when you start talking about equally skilled drivers then car comes into play, but looking at lemans lets you see how much of it is really driver, the field is very level according to performance, yet you get people lapping 20, 30+ seconds behind, why is that in a field where all the cars are restricted to make it even?
02-14-2003, 11:50 AM
#46
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by max2000jp
I said the average vette driver, I didnt say a newbie. The car plays more than 10%. Some cars are hard to drive fast, even with a great driver. Before you try and debate that, let me ask you if YOU have ever been to a roadcourse?
I said the average vette driver, I didnt say a newbie. The car plays more than 10%. Some cars are hard to drive fast, even with a great driver. Before you try and debate that, let me ask you if YOU have ever been to a roadcourse?
and yes, i have, have you?
02-14-2003, 12:17 PM
#47
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Comp-tech-ton (also joke)
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
I could ask the same thing of you, and the skill level in which it takes to drive a car is the whole reason driver is 90% of the equation, i should think this would be obvious.
and yes, i have, have you?
I could ask the same thing of you, and the skill level in which it takes to drive a car is the whole reason driver is 90% of the equation, i should think this would be obvious.
and yes, i have, have you?
And even if you don't---I would point out that you are not considering the importance of car. While a skilled driver who knows how to take a proper racing line is crucial in the posting of low times at a road course, max2000jp is correct when he argues that a car is very important---undoubtedly more than the 10% you allowed for.
The car is the pasta, it fills you up. The driver is the sauce. And you, my friend, in making your false distinctions on performance, are letting us know that you are "weak sauce."
All the best,
B
02-14-2003, 12:59 PM
#48
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
I could ask the same thing of you, and the skill level in which it takes to drive a car is the whole reason driver is 90% of the equation, i should think this would be obvious.
and yes, i have, have you?
I could ask the same thing of you, and the skill level in which it takes to drive a car is the whole reason driver is 90% of the equation, i should think this would be obvious.
and yes, i have, have you?
Again, try driving a 5000 lb SUV around a track as fast a Z06 assuming equal drivers. One is going to be a hell of a lot slower, and THAT IS DUE TO AN INFERIOR VEHICLE.
I dont disagree that its crucial to have a decent driver in the seat. All in all, I cannot stress that proper technique is crucial. Without a technique, even the fastest cars can be slow. I myself was taught a proper racing line, maybe havent honed it perfectly yet, but that takes more seat time. I can run a Z06 around a track faster than my car.....AND THAT MY FRIEND IS THE RESULT OF A BETTER CAR.
02-14-2003, 11:39 PM
#49
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by max2000jp
Well obviously even for a skilled driver, you would know that a 700 hp race car is HARDER TO DRIVE than a 350Z. It is apparent that you have never been to a road course, but rather watch racing on TV.
Again, try driving a 5000 lb SUV around a track as fast a Z06 assuming equal drivers. One is going to be a hell of a lot slower, and THAT IS DUE TO AN INFERIOR VEHICLE.
I dont disagree that its crucial to have a decent driver in the seat. All in all, I cannot stress that proper technique is crucial. Without a technique, even the fastest cars can be slow. I myself was taught a proper racing line, maybe havent honed it perfectly yet, but that takes more seat time. I can run a Z06 around a track faster than my car.....AND THAT MY FRIEND IS THE RESULT OF A BETTER CAR.
Well obviously even for a skilled driver, you would know that a 700 hp race car is HARDER TO DRIVE than a 350Z. It is apparent that you have never been to a road course, but rather watch racing on TV.
Again, try driving a 5000 lb SUV around a track as fast a Z06 assuming equal drivers. One is going to be a hell of a lot slower, and THAT IS DUE TO AN INFERIOR VEHICLE.
I dont disagree that its crucial to have a decent driver in the seat. All in all, I cannot stress that proper technique is crucial. Without a technique, even the fastest cars can be slow. I myself was taught a proper racing line, maybe havent honed it perfectly yet, but that takes more seat time. I can run a Z06 around a track faster than my car.....AND THAT MY FRIEND IS THE RESULT OF A BETTER CAR.
Compare 2 CARS that are meant for performance, the driver issue becomes a large part, 90% driver 10% car comes with the idea that we are working with 2 cars that are at least somewhat capable, wher the way it's driven is the factor and not the complete lack of its ability.
02-15-2003, 06:38 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Comp-tech-ton (also joke)
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
of course, now say put yourself in that Z06 for one lap and then drive your 350Z for a few month, without any prior racing experience, which would you lap faster in? the Z06 is a good bit faster around the track, but i'm sure that given a proper amount of time you'd be able to outlap the Z06 time in your 350Z, why? you got better as a driver.
Compare 2 CARS that are meant for performance, the driver issue becomes a large part, 90% driver 10% car comes with the idea that we are working with 2 cars that are at least somewhat capable, wher the way it's driven is the factor and not the complete lack of its ability.
of course, now say put yourself in that Z06 for one lap and then drive your 350Z for a few month, without any prior racing experience, which would you lap faster in? the Z06 is a good bit faster around the track, but i'm sure that given a proper amount of time you'd be able to outlap the Z06 time in your 350Z, why? you got better as a driver.
Compare 2 CARS that are meant for performance, the driver issue becomes a large part, 90% driver 10% car comes with the idea that we are working with 2 cars that are at least somewhat capable, wher the way it's driven is the factor and not the complete lack of its ability.
It appears you're trying to argue that, given two closely capable cars, the driver's plays 90% of a role in the outcome. I don't think there is any disagreement with you given that assumption.
Most any jamoke would agree that the best driver in a four-banger mini-ute couldn't beat a near novice in a Z06 vette. The issue now, I would argue, is this: what do you consider to be two equally matched cars meant for performance?
From experience at the track, I would argue that your comparison of a 350Z and a Z06 isn't good for this argument. The Z06 is significantly quicker around the track, no matter the hands at the wheel.
B
02-15-2003, 07:08 PM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by theslansk
Sounds like you have not taken the most effective defense on this 10% car 90% driver thing. What you recently stated is an important assumption for your case: "Compare two cars that are meant for performance."
It appears you're trying to argue that, given two closely capable cars, the driver's plays 90% of a role in the outcome. I don't think there is any disagreement with you given that assumption.
Most any jamoke would agree that the best driver in a four-banger mini-ute couldn't beat a near novice in a Z06 vette. The issue now, I would argue, is this: what do you consider to be two equally matched cars meant for performance?
From experience at the track, I would argue that your comparison of a 350Z and a Z06 isn't good for this argument. The Z06 is significantly quicker around the track, no matter the hands at the wheel.
B
Sounds like you have not taken the most effective defense on this 10% car 90% driver thing. What you recently stated is an important assumption for your case: "Compare two cars that are meant for performance."
It appears you're trying to argue that, given two closely capable cars, the driver's plays 90% of a role in the outcome. I don't think there is any disagreement with you given that assumption.
Most any jamoke would agree that the best driver in a four-banger mini-ute couldn't beat a near novice in a Z06 vette. The issue now, I would argue, is this: what do you consider to be two equally matched cars meant for performance?
From experience at the track, I would argue that your comparison of a 350Z and a Z06 isn't good for this argument. The Z06 is significantly quicker around the track, no matter the hands at the wheel.
B
the 350Z vs a Z06 is a drivers race, the Z06 driver can make more mistakes, but that doesnt mean he'll automatically win, the percentage in which the driver counts gets even closer if you compare a base C5 to a 350Z since the C5 is slower around a track. the point of the Z06 vs a 350Z is that the Z06 can be beaten if the driver isn't up to par.
02-15-2003, 07:55 PM
#52
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
When talking in a racing forum i'm ASSuming that the people are referring to 2 performance cars, not an SUV vs a corvette, pardon me if i don't make statements based on comparing a family truck to a sportscar.
the 350Z vs a Z06 is a drivers race, the Z06 driver can make more mistakes, but that doesnt mean he'll automatically win, the percentage in which the driver counts gets even closer if you compare a base C5 to a 350Z since the C5 is slower around a track. the point of the Z06 vs a 350Z is that the Z06 can be beaten if the driver isn't up to par.
When talking in a racing forum i'm ASSuming that the people are referring to 2 performance cars, not an SUV vs a corvette, pardon me if i don't make statements based on comparing a family truck to a sportscar.
the 350Z vs a Z06 is a drivers race, the Z06 driver can make more mistakes, but that doesnt mean he'll automatically win, the percentage in which the driver counts gets even closer if you compare a base C5 to a 350Z since the C5 is slower around a track. the point of the Z06 vs a 350Z is that the Z06 can be beaten if the driver isn't up to par.
CAN be beaten...YES...will it?? That's all up to the situation. You can't argue "chance".....but I'm willing to bet that 95% of the time the Z06 will win...with nearly ANY DRIVER at the helm.
02-15-2003, 08:21 PM
#53
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Comp-tech-ton (also joke)
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
When talking in a racing forum i'm ASSuming that the people are referring to 2 performance cars, not an SUV vs a corvette, pardon me if i don't make statements based on comparing a family truck to a sportscar.
the 350Z vs a Z06 is a drivers race, the Z06 driver can make more mistakes, but that doesnt mean he'll automatically win, the percentage in which the driver counts gets even closer if you compare a base C5 to a 350Z since the C5 is slower around a track. the point of the Z06 vs a 350Z is that the Z06 can be beaten if the driver isn't up to par.
When talking in a racing forum i'm ASSuming that the people are referring to 2 performance cars, not an SUV vs a corvette, pardon me if i don't make statements based on comparing a family truck to a sportscar.
the 350Z vs a Z06 is a drivers race, the Z06 driver can make more mistakes, but that doesnt mean he'll automatically win, the percentage in which the driver counts gets even closer if you compare a base C5 to a 350Z since the C5 is slower around a track. the point of the Z06 vs a 350Z is that the Z06 can be beaten if the driver isn't up to par.
I'm gonna have to call you out on that one. This is simply false. (Unless you or some other joker that doesn't have a clue as to how to take a proper racing line is driving the Z06.)
It seems that you don't understand what "driver's race" means--at all. A driver's race is one that is so close that the driver who drives marginally better will win. Yet you call the Z06 vs 350Z a driver's race---assuming so because it is possible, in your mind, that a Z06 driver could make "more mistakes." He'd have to make lots of mistakes, lots. When "more mistakes" are necessary, then it's not a driver's race--it's a case which you might be familiar with--a case where the less powerful car is sure to get its doors blown off.
Come on now, quit pushing this BS on us. Does anyone here (other than you and others who don't know how to take a proper racing line) actually think that ZO6 vs 350Z is a driver's race on any course???
(predicted answer------->nobody)
B
02-15-2003, 09:53 PM
#55
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by ihatethatbobbarker
i wonder what michael schumacher(spelling?) could do in a 350z against you in a ZO6
i wonder what michael schumacher(spelling?) could do in a 350z against you in a ZO6
02-15-2003, 10:46 PM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by theslansk
"350Z vs a Z06 is a drivers race"
I'm gonna have to call you out on that one. This is simply false. (Unless you or some other joker that doesn't have a clue as to how to take a proper racing line is driving the Z06.)
It seems that you don't understand what "driver's race" means--at all. A driver's race is one that is so close that the driver who drives marginally better will win. Yet you call the Z06 vs 350Z a driver's race---assuming so because it is possible, in your mind, that a Z06 driver could make "more mistakes." He'd have to make lots of mistakes, lots. When "more mistakes" are necessary, then it's not a driver's race--it's a case which you might be familiar with--a case where the less powerful car is sure to get its doors blown off.
Come on now, quit pushing this BS on us. Does anyone here (other than you and others who don't know how to take a proper racing line) actually think that ZO6 vs 350Z is a driver's race on any course???
(predicted answer------->nobody)
B
"350Z vs a Z06 is a drivers race"
I'm gonna have to call you out on that one. This is simply false. (Unless you or some other joker that doesn't have a clue as to how to take a proper racing line is driving the Z06.)
It seems that you don't understand what "driver's race" means--at all. A driver's race is one that is so close that the driver who drives marginally better will win. Yet you call the Z06 vs 350Z a driver's race---assuming so because it is possible, in your mind, that a Z06 driver could make "more mistakes." He'd have to make lots of mistakes, lots. When "more mistakes" are necessary, then it's not a driver's race--it's a case which you might be familiar with--a case where the less powerful car is sure to get its doors blown off.
Come on now, quit pushing this BS on us. Does anyone here (other than you and others who don't know how to take a proper racing line) actually think that ZO6 vs 350Z is a driver's race on any course???
(predicted answer------->nobody)
B
mistakes are inherent, they WILL happen, the car who can afford to make them can still come out on top but that isn't the point. It is ALWAYS a drivers race, period, get that through your head. The driver is the key factor, you've obviously never seen miatas walk RX-7s and S2000's on roadcourses due to the DRIVER, i've seen miatas with very minimal power mods outlap Z06's, obviously you haven't been to the track very often if you think it isn't a probably possibility.
Stop pushing your BS and i'll stop telling you you're wrong.
I willing to bet that any AVERAGE driver in a Z06 could DESTROY Schumacher in the Z...
02-15-2003, 10:57 PM
#58
Turbo Whore
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West suburbs of Chi-town
Posts: 7,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
and if the driver isn't average? thats exactly why its 90% driver, you NEVER know how good the driver is, and its even more prevalent when the cars power is similar.
and if the driver isn't average? thats exactly why its 90% driver, you NEVER know how good the driver is, and its even more prevalent when the cars power is similar.
02-15-2003, 10:59 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MI
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
and its even more prevalent when the cars power is similar.
and its even more prevalent when the cars power is similar.
God, i hope not all 350Z owners are this ignorant.
02-16-2003, 08:14 AM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
The reason i'm saying it could happen is because I know how to take a line, and i know how hard it is to take a very good driver in ANY kind of car, you're making it sound as if taking a proper line is EASY or even POSSIBLE in all situations, i wonder how much experience you really have claiming I cant take a line but going off how easy it is yourself.
mistakes are inherent, they WILL happen, the car who can afford to make them can still come out on top but that isn't the point. It is ALWAYS a drivers race, period, get that through your head. The driver is the key factor, you've obviously never seen miatas walk RX-7s and S2000's on roadcourses due to the DRIVER, i've seen miatas with very minimal power mods outlap Z06's, obviously you haven't been to the track very often if you think it isn't a probably possibility.
Stop pushing your BS and i'll stop telling you you're wrong.
and if the driver isn't average? thats exactly why its 90% driver, you NEVER know how good the driver is, and its even more prevalent when the cars power is similar.
The reason i'm saying it could happen is because I know how to take a line, and i know how hard it is to take a very good driver in ANY kind of car, you're making it sound as if taking a proper line is EASY or even POSSIBLE in all situations, i wonder how much experience you really have claiming I cant take a line but going off how easy it is yourself.
mistakes are inherent, they WILL happen, the car who can afford to make them can still come out on top but that isn't the point. It is ALWAYS a drivers race, period, get that through your head. The driver is the key factor, you've obviously never seen miatas walk RX-7s and S2000's on roadcourses due to the DRIVER, i've seen miatas with very minimal power mods outlap Z06's, obviously you haven't been to the track very often if you think it isn't a probably possibility.
Stop pushing your BS and i'll stop telling you you're wrong.
and if the driver isn't average? thats exactly why its 90% driver, you NEVER know how good the driver is, and its even more prevalent when the cars power is similar.
Honestly, quit trying to BS the guys who have ACTUALLY BEEN TO A TRACK. From your posts, it shows a lack of any track knowledge. Keep reading Road & Track, I hear they have a great article on road racing a 350Z vs Z06 vs Carrera vs M3.
I am willling to bet that I can stick a new driver in a Z06, take them around the track to show them the braking points and proper line and they would be able to beat a more experienced driver in a 350Z. Per your classification, they are both sports cars.
ITS THE CAR NOT THE DRIVER......NO ONE IN HERE IS A PROFESSIONAL DRIVER. WHEN YOU RACE PROFESSIONALLY, THEN COME BACK AND STATE ITS THE DRIVER.
Every time you post, you show your ignorance to the subject.