ELESWON

Nahhh...not enough ricers and trolls to qualify as a true honorary LS1.com. See all we're doing is talking LS1 stuff. Maybe LS1tech.com, they have much higher standards as to what they allow to go on there. Sorry for hijacking the site....here you can have it back.

edoan

Blah, there's no comparing the 350Z to an LS1 car. An LT1 F-body would be the better comparison for the 350Z since both are low 14 second cars. Oh well, as any F-body guy knows, the LS1 >> LT1 debates continue to this day. It's all just a big pissing contest.

As for handling, I'm not so sure about 350Z vs. 1LE LS1. And when it comes to all-out modding, the 4th gen F-body has been around since 1993, so tuners have had a decade to come up with handling mods. I think an LS1 with subframe connectors, 1LE sway bars, Eibach springs, and double-adjustable Koni shocks (< $2K in mods) would out-run and out-handle even the NISMO 350Z.

OTOH, I'm glad I bought a 350Z to replace my tired 97 Firebird rather than an overpriced 02 T/A. The fit and finish of the 350Z is light years ahead, and the overall package is much more refined. I'll reserve judgment on the 04 GTO, but GM needs to take notes on the 350Z when they build a 5th gen F-body!

Edward

zxsaint

I have to disagree.

My opinion:

With no mods on either, the 350Z will nearly lap an f-body as far as handling is concerned.

With $2k of suspension mods on both, the results will be narrower, but 350Z will still nearly lap the f-body. Theres a lot more to handling than just springs, shocks, and bars. This is where the 350Z is at home, just as the fbody feels on the drag strip.

ELESWON

My opinion:

Your fukn crazy. Have you ever been to a road course event and watched an Fbody? Or god help, driven one? Didnt think so. No, they arent pedigreed for the turns near as much as the 350Z, but that isnt to say it cant be done. The above mentioned mods will put you damn close to pulling a g on the skid pad, that and some 315 series DOT road race tires on all 4 corners (try that with your 350Z) and im sorry but you wouldnt stand a chance. Not to mention we out power you by nearly 100 crank hp. Seriously, stock for stock i would put a 1LE fbody against ANY 350Z on a road course. In fact, at the autocross a month back there was a 98 1LE camaro and a spankin new Track model 350. Granted i think the 1 LE pilot was a bit more experianced, but he was waxing that 350 all over the place. And this was a friggin AUTOCROSS, not even a real road course event. If there is one area where the 350 should beat an fbody, its an autocross. Give us a few straits to play with, and your fukd.

One thing i will say though, the 350 is easier to drive at 9/10th's than an Fbody.....much easier. It takes skill to properly pilot an Fbody around a track. So Joe average vs Joe average one with the 350 and one with the fbody, yeah the 350 will likely come out on top. I'll give you that much.

Caswell

How do you think a 350Z would do on one of America's premiere road courses against M3's, S2000's, Boxster-S's, and Supras?

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_rac...s/t2-race.html

Remember f-bodies are doing that with minimal suspension mods, all while carrying 150lbs. of ballast and breathing through a restrictor plate.

Where the hell did the idea that the f-body is not comfortable on a road course come from? Sure, there are better handling cars out there, but I've never read a review in a major automotive magazine that knocked the handling abililites of a 4th gen f-body - and I have a compiliation of every one from '03-'00. Does Sport Compact Car, Super Tuner, or some other import rag spout off this uninformed drivel or is it pure uniformed heresay?

By the way, the "pedigree" of the f-body has a lot more to do with classic Trans-Am racing than any drag strip.

ChromeBullit

Bottomline, the 350z is a better handling car than the ls1's. No argument.

wileecoyte

I kind of skipped through some of the posts a little bit but even with a HP disadvantage the 350z has much better gearing for high speeds. Trap speeds and rolling speeds are very different. After you hit ~105 or so you shut down. Whereas rolling you obviously keep on going. My brother had an E36 M3 with some minor mods but he was able to keep up with and slowly close on a new stock looking WS6 that got the jump. The top 2 gears for a M6 F-body are overdrive gears, whereas 5th is 1:1 on a 350z. Even with a pretty big HP deficit I would think the Z or other cars like M3's (which have very similar gear ratios) would have their best shot at beating an F-body from higher speeds. From a stop there's no chance unless the LS1 blows a shift or does something dumb, they're just too fast. But I think at high speed roll ons there might be a chance. What is the top speed for 4th gear in a M6 LS1? Once you get out of that and into 5th gear is where the LS1 would be disadvantaged. My view anyway. Brother now has a new WS6, cat back, intake and it is sick fast.

wileecoyte

And as far as the handling\race track thing goes...

Handling and lap times are 2 different things. A 350 will be awfully quick on real road twisties with bumps, camber changes, and very quick transitions and all that where the LS1's rear suspension isn't as adept. Howerever, racetracks are generally pretty smooth and here I have to agree with the LS1 folk, with a 1LE suspension and some tires etc... I'm not sure a Z with similar mods would be able to keep up with equal drivers. Also that's why the SCCA does give the LS1's a weight penalty and restrictors to try and keep it close to the other cars. The twistier the track the more the Z would have an advantage, but on bigger tracks I think it might have trouble. That's a big power deficit to give up, and with fewer bumps to throw off the LS1's they can lay down the power, and with HUGE tires that they run they can definitely get pretty high corner speeds. As a side not though, the M3's have to run narrower tires in that class b/c they were too fast, so the Z and M3's (E36 anyway) are pretty similar power to weight. So who knows, maybe they would lose out on power tracks (Like the RunOffs Road America,) but win on more technical tracks? Advantage on a racetrack though would generally have to be an LS1 though.

Maximam

130mph

BTW my car pulls hard through 5th to 160mph! Disadvantage? Yes if the car had less power but it doesn't. True 4th pulls the harder but 5th is no slouch.

Maximam

On a roadcourse? You have got to be kidding! Do you have any experience with roadcourse? I understand this is your opinion but with a statement like that, you opinion means nothing to me.

Your right!

Maximam

+1!

ELESWON

Ok lets take these one at a time....

-Trap speed is directly related to how fast a car is in a roll on. This is common as hell knowledge and i wont waste time arguing the validity of that fact. Just because you shut down at the track doesnt mean it wouldnt keep pulling on the street.

-Absoulute and utter bs. Unless "minor mods" includes forced induction that is. Ive raced a jillion E36 M3s (one of my closest friends owns one for one thing) and no way no how never has that car even thought about pulling on me above 70. In direct contrast to your assumption, the ONLY chance an E36 M3 (or 350Z for that matter) has against an LS1 is from a dead dig and pray to what god you may that brougham in the fbody blows the launch.

- 4th is good for 126 mph. And any 350 that wants to go from a 125 roll, im down for it any time, any place, anybody. The LS1 is a roll-on car the likes of which even Supra drivers pay much respect to. Ive beaten low 12 sec fox body Mustangs on the roll (they get their low et's coming off line with 1.6 short times).

Its obvious most of the guys on this board dont spend much time researching their competition. Lest we wouldnt have to have threads like this one constantly. I mean how many diffrent ways can you say it. Comparing the 350Z to an LS1 fbody in strait line performance is statistically identical to comparing an LS1 fbody to a Z06.....anybody wanna try justifying that argument? Thats what i thought.

Maximam

350Z owners don't want to hear that, lets see the comeback.

I totally agree to the statement, anyone with roadcourse experience knows this.

Autocross is not roadcourse BTW.

My 100hp 510 kicks @ss in autocross but would be killed in roadcourse.

wileecoyte

Whoa ELESWON easy now! Man you're all fired up!!

My point that I was trying to make is that gearing can be a factor. I obviously don't have the experience with LS1's that you do, and i can't say for sure who'd win or by how much. But for instance in Road & Track they did a 0-150 test, and in that test an NSX beat out a Corvette. Vette has better power to weight, better aero, a whopping torque advantage, but worse gearing. The Vette stayed in front until they really got moving (100+)when the less aggressive higher gears caused it to eventually lose to the NSX which is much more aggressively geared. So I don't doubt LS1's are fast and all that, but I thought gearing would have an impact. Also though most people don't race to 150 so it may be a moot point.

I also thought trap speed was mostly an indicator of HP? Wouldn't roll ons be more HP + gearing at that speed the roll on started? Say you and I have identical cars except I have 4.11's and you've got 3.23's. Who's going to win? Me of course b/c of gearing. Now the question is how much gearing advantage does it take to overcome a HP advantage as the case would be here?

And actually when my brother raced that car he did have more than minor bolt ons and that's my fault. On that one he had a super strong motor to start with (lucky him) with tb, chip, MAS, injectors, cams, intake, borla, etc... So power was ~320HP. And he didn't blow the guy away or anything but was able to stay with and then start to close on him until they got up around 120 and slowed. My brother was very surprised b/c he's a manager at a Pontiac dealership, drives WS6's pretty often, and didn't think he'd have any chance of staying with the TA when they hit it. Who knows maybe it was A4? But once again that would be my point, gearing.

ELESWON

Wilee-

First, I didnt mean to come off the wrong way. I was making the assumption that you were like a few of the other members here ive had "discussions" with, and that was the reason for my disposition. My appologies. Obviously you are much more open to reason.

Its a well known fact among LS1 owners that every vehicle so equipped (note the Z06 is an LS6) is undergeared. Thats why one of the first things most people do is swap to 410's. HUUGGEE diffrence. But everything is a trade off. Steeper gears cost you wheel horsepower. For instance, in LS1 fbodies, its a very well documented fact that you will lose 8-10 hp going from 3.42 to 4.10. That can hurt a bit in roll on races. Thats why most people who have "Supraitis" and want to specialize in roll ons dont usually go crazy with gearing. This all goes back to why i said, for most cars, if you want to tangle with an LS1, the stop light is the place. With stock gearing it takes us a good while to get "spooled up" in 1st and 2nd. But at the same time, with the fairly shallow gearing we have, 3rd pulls like 2nd and 4th aint far behind.

As you stated, trap speeds are absolutly indicative of hp, but they are also hand in hand with what a car is capable of in a roll-on type race. Im not educated enough to give formulas and such for this, but from experiance i can tell you if a car out traps you by 2 mph consistantly, it will pull you just as consistantly in a roll-on type race. Belive me, ive tested this (much to the chagrin of local police) many many times on near-by I-485. Naturally, gearing and aerodynamics play a large part once you hit triple digits. Its like i tell my friends who arent quite as into this stuff as i am.....1/4 mi. et.'s are excellent indicators of 3 things: 1) how well someone can launch their car 2) how much torque they have 3) how fast they can shift. Trap speed is good for 3 things as well: 1) how much hp a car has 2) how aerodynamic a car is 3) how well of a roll on car it is. And a little hint, how well you launch has very little to do with your trap speed. In fact, the worse you hook (to an extent) the faster your trap speed. All of these reasons are why i tell aforementioned friends that if you want a good overall indication of how fast and powerful a car is, trap speed beats out et's all day long (in my humble opinion or course). This new Evo 8 for example, they have a few modded ones running deep 12s at about 107 mph. What that tells me is "a" i dont wanna run one of those modded ones from a stop light and "b" i would happily race the same car from a roll. Hope all this helped a bit.

PS. Your brothers race makes a lot more sense now. Thank you for the clarification. Although i must say, ive never seen a bolt on E36 M3 that could run with an LS1. But hey, i aint seen all, not by a long shot.

wileecoyte

I gotcha, yeah I'm pretty open, glad to see you are too. Thanks for the explanations I know a little about this stuff but don't have a ton of real world experience with it, race here and there but not tons. So that's why it's good to hear from guys like you that race more, and race against quite a few different models to get an idea of what's what. Theory often goes out the window in the real world.

Sadly brother's M3 has been sold and is now been transformed by it's new owner into a wicked track day car. He has however replaced it with an 01 Ram-Air M6. Drove it last night with the SLP loudmouth, whew man, that thing is just plain nasty.

And I agree, from what the people in the know say, 1/4 times are about getting the car out of the hole well, whereas you want to look at your trap speed to see what your car is truly capable of. No idea how you get that thing to hook up, it just spins them up so easy and he's barely done anything to it.

It sort of messes me up driving his car, I typically like the Euro\Jap cars (M3, 911, Z, G35 etc...) but having all that power is addicting. INSTANT torque and shove in the back. Wonder what the new GTO will be like? I want your LSI power in a G35C, that would be just about ideal. Wonder if that LS1 would fit? he he he now that'd be something.

S8ER95Z

Btw ..for the record..in case anyone decides to mess with an Automatic equiped Fbody


With 3:42s I shift from D into OD at 130mph..where I pull past the 150mph mark with about 2K left to play with...

Im modded so the extra 2 inches I sink into the dash are not a true testament. I only made it to a little over 150mph stock.

salphonso

I saw this post really late but being a 99Z28 M6 owner i have to put my .02 in. 350z will not touch a Z28 without some damn nice mods, But overall i would say 350z is alot better IMO. I have a 99 Z28 with minor mods and its fast but they handle like crap. I personally think the 350z is overall a better car. Looks better, rides better, handles/corners better, and is just flat out a sexier car than Camaros. Not to mention everything in a camaro rattles. But thats just my opinion some people swore the life to Fbodies and will never get anythign else and will swear to there graves that nothing is better or faster then an fbody. Fbodies are quarter mile cars 350z is an all around sports car. to get a camaro to handle well you need to spend like 3k maybe more. put 3k or 4 k into a 350 it will run with a Z28 in 1/4 mile so all in all if you compare them they both have advantages and disadvantages. I personally will take the 350z over the Camaro which i am doing in couple of months..
Cant wait to get my 350z and make it beat some of my friends with LS1s

ELESWON

Thats basically what all this comes down to. Personally, i would rather run a low 13 and handle decently well (which nobody in their right mind will say the fbody isnt a good handling car especially with a few mods) than turn low 14s and handle really well. And i wont argue the fit and finish thing....but one thing you 350 guys dont take into consideration....maybe some of us like the less refined things in life. When people sit in my car, they hear it growl and grunt, they know its fast. As well, 330 ft lbs of tq to the ground is VERY sexy, just ask any chick thats ridden in my car . And i have the capablility to put my car well into the 10s without any black magic (just a bit of pocket change), and ultimately thats what im gunning for (it'll be a while before we see a Z in the 11s, much less the 10s). When people sit in your car they go ahhhhh nice car. Not what i was shooting for. I like the rough edges. But hey, its all a very personal decision and we each made our own and here we are. Who are any of us to look down on the others because they have a diffrent taste.

PS. Some of us cant afford 30k+ for a vehicle. When i bought my Z28 i knew i had to come in under 25K and/or less than $400 a month. I paid $23550 out the door, payments are $368. With 1200 miles and stock down to the paper air filter and dealer tags, my car ran 13.49 @106 and me with all of 9 day driving experiance in the car. Thats bang for the buck friends.

salphonso

I will miss the sound of my engine, cant deny that. I just want something new and 350z is sweet. I know I will miss the torque and sound my Z28 puts out though.