CrazyBosnian

First off, its a vette, and anyone in their right mind anywhere in the world would take a vette over a Z...No offence to anyone. The engine is less expensive, simply because its the old pushrod design, and u can find parts for it anywhere...You can get a brand new LS1 like said above or about 4-5k, check with you dealer how much a brand new VQ35 wil cost you...Oh, and if the LS1 had the technology invested in it of the VQ35 it would be making well over 450 hp...

Daytona Blue Z in Bo

Key word being "if"
Shoulda woulda coulda

Funny you say this after countless people were flaming people comparing how much HP a 5.7 liter Nissan engine would make and you say the same thing but in reverse

BigBadBuford

The comparisons of the V6's is sort of silly, since the Buick 3.8 V6 used in most of GM's cars was developed in the late '50s/early 60's. We should be comparing the VQ35DE to the new GM V6 that they just developed. The first version will be a 3.6L pushing out 255 hp - right with the Japanese engines, and these engines are slated to put out up to 380+ hp in turbocharged form.
When you start looking at V8s, American V8s put out similar power numbers to Japanese and German designs. Just look at Nissans new Titan truck - 5.6 liters and 300 hp/380 lbs. ft. torque - sounds a lot like the 5.3L LS1 derived motor in Chevy Trucks. Look at the LS6 - 405 hp/5.7L vs the M5 5L 394 hp. The M5 has everything, DOHC, 4 valves/cylinder, individual throttle bodies, variable valve timing, etc. and it only makes 7 more hp/L than the "antiquated" OHV 2-valve low tech LS6. And the LS6 gets better gas mileage to boot!
The other reasons manufacturers use large displacement engines with fairly low specific output is to get the one thing those high revving low displacement motors don't have - torque! When people are looking at a 'vette or a Camaro they are looking for torque, not an 9500 rpm redline, and the LS1 does a great job at making tons of torque and good HP numbers efficiently and for a low cost.

Z06KILLR

Z06KILLR

double post...grrr

281cobra

I can understand the hp per liter argument (engineering prowess ) but here in the good old U.S of A the only thing that matters on the street is HP PER CAR. If a Honda S2000 with a 2.0L 240 hp engine races a F-body with a 5.7L 320 hp engine (actually 350 hp) the Honda is going get it's *** kicked. Now I guess the Honda owner can console himself with the fact that he has the better engineered car but HE LOST THE ****ING RACE AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE.

Now that's look at this so called import engineering prowess as it is applicable to the street, V8 vs V8. Infiniti makes a DOHC 4.5L that puts out 345 hp and Lexus has a DOHC 4.3L that puts out 300 hp and my 99 Cobra has a DOHC 4.6 that puts out 320 hp. Now add an aftermarket exhaust, CAI and underdrive pullies to my Cobra and you get almost 350 hp. So that means Ford is on par (engine wise) with import cars that cost twice as much. Now let's talk about BMW V8's. The M5 has a DOHC 5.0L that puts out 394 hp but Ford just came out with an DOHC 5.0L crate engine that puts out 425 hp. While it's true you can't get the Ford engine in a street car (yet). I can buy it and install it in my car myself and it will cost a hell of a lot cheaper than a 80,000 dollar M5.

Now I'm in no way saying my Cobra is better engineered than the cars listed above but I am saying my engine is on a engineering par with the engines listed above. And may I add for a hell of a lot less money.

PacerX

"Oh, and if the LS1 had the technology invested in it of the VQ35 it would be making well over 450 hp..."

A cam alone will do 450hp on an LS6. No fancy-schmancy stuff needed. Oil her up and stab her in.

D'oh

Perhaps I didn't explain myself well, but you completely missed/ignored my point.

I was not arguing about whether the vette is good or not, but rather, if the Vette's engine in only worth 5K, why is the rest of the car (which is basically the same as the Z) so much more expensive?

About people taking the vette over a Z, I agree if the vette was the same price, but since it costs significantly more, the Z will sell just about the same as the vette. In fact, I've read that the vette is not too popular in Europe because it costs around 60K for just the standard one, not the Z06. Therefore, I'm not sure how many people would "purchase" a vette over a Z. I know I'd like to purchase a Z06, but I got all this .com stock that's gotta go up first!

So I guess what I'm trying to say is this:
Combine the Z's platform and the LS1 engine and you have a sub 30K car with vette performance. Given what we know of the Z and the LS1 engine, a car like that should easily be profitable (even more profitable than the current Z if we are to believe the engine costs). Now, given that a vehicle like that is technically possible, and would be profitable, do any of you think a manufacturer has any interest in something like that? I'm hoping that the performance of the STI and EVO will bring RWD sports car prices down, but do you guys think it will happen? Will there be another Firebird/Camaro in GM's future, or a vairiant that is more sports car (2 seats and smaller) instead of muscle car?

-D'oh!

sukkoi19

Your question can be answered in one word. Marketing. The Vette is the premier falgship of GMs line, therefore it commands a higher price. Hard top Vettes can be had for the upper 30s if you haggle enough.

dj el run

The Corvette is the premier car of GM. All new technology first comes out in the vette, and it is their flagship car. GM could make a bunch of em and sell them in bulk for cheap, and while the car would be easily bought it would not be highly desired.

GM wants everyone growing up to think "when I make enough money I want to buy a vette and I will know I have made it in the world. I want to have status so when I drive down the street everyone will know I'm driving a 40k+ car."

If you have car knowledge, you could make a car run 10's for half the price of a new vette, or a 350z. That's not the point. You're buying the status that comes with the car, the fact that not everyone is driving one.

Steve98TransAm

Very well said man. I think you just summed up why the Corvette is so special.

r34 racer

iTrader: (1)

Welcome to the land of extreme incomprehension. Nobody said anything about a displacement limit, and even if there was a mention of a displacement limit it WOULD NOT hinder my argument that japanese engines tend, in general, to make more use of given displacement.

This is an astute observation, but is somewhat granted and most definitely tangential. Not to mention that it only bolsters my argument that SHOULD a japanese engine have the same displacement as an american engine, the japanese engine would inherently produce more power given equal amounts of fuel BECAUSE as you inferred, the japanese market demands efficiency because cheap resources are quite limited in Japan, whereas the general atmosphere in america is somewhat more 'extravagant' if you will.

I will have to agree with you on your first point that displacement is not the end all be all. I am glad we agree here, but you seem to have no real basis for your 2nd comment. The Japanese have had heavier experience with overhead valvetrains than Americans have had (evidenced by the fact that many of today's American engines are still pushrod type motors though the OHV setup is gaining favor as well, while nearly all of today's Japanese engines are OHV). Added experience, along with other factors, would probably give the advantage to the japanese for an OHV V8.


A higher specific output creates a more advantageous situation regarding most of those aspects you describe--a higher HP/L engine will require less displacement to produce equal power to a lower HP/L engine, reducing weight, displacement, physical size, and material but not manufacturing cost. With japanese engines in particular, reliability doesnt seem to be an issue with performance engines; supras with $2000 in mods can be boosted to 500HP on stock internals and fuel system; upgrade the fuel system and the stock internals still last up to about 7 or 800 hp. Reliably. Tunability is also not an issue as japanese performance engines are often overengineered and subsequently detuned AKA 2JZ-GTE and RB26DETT among a whole host of others. Even smaller, aluminum-block engines such as the SR20DET are able to create nearly double their stock HP; I believe JUN's S15 silvia produces upwards of 500 hp versus 250 stock. Supras have gone up to 1200; the most powerful r33 GTR skyline (the older model, mind you) that i have seen has 1370hp. I'd have to say japanese engines are quite tunable.


The viper is a supercar. Stack it up against a Japanese Supercar, a Tommy Kaira ZZII with a 2.6L RB26DETT pushing 500hp, and it will outaccellerate the viper because it weighs next to nothing and i believe has AWD. Put the SRT-4 against the Lancer Evolution and Subaru Imprezza WRX STi (all are small, four-door sport sedans) and the two imports trump the neon. I would continue this further but my contact lenses are fogging up like mad and i need to go take them out. Have a nice night.



And to StockLT1, since you wanted to get confrontational:
It is a shame that you lost those IQ points, since you obviously cant spare to lose any more of the few you have left.

Bullitt4711

Wow, its great to see all the friendships that have been built here and to see the debates still ragin. I love it.

~Colby

P.S. Oh and for anyone from in SoCal area, a gruop of friends and myself are having an OPEN CAR MEET!

A date has finally been set for the San Diego Meet. We're going to meet at the Canon Building in Mira Mesa (see map below) and then caravan to another location around 11:30-12:00. We'll hang out there for about 1-1 1/2 hrs before leaving for the cruise. We'll be running the road up to Palomar Mountain. I'll post the rest of the details (a scheduled breakdown of the day, dircections for the cruise, my cell#, where we'll eat,etc) a little later, but for now consider this a role call sheet. Post if you're going to coming to this huge meet. It will have close to more than 125 cars (Mustangs, Camaros, Celicas, maybe a few WRX's, possibly some GS400's/IS300's, and probably some older hot rods). This will be the biggest mixed meet ever in San Diego in both size and range with attendees stretching from Texas to Canada. So come out and make it a success.


~Colby

Bullitt4711

Repeat Post... Sorry

Bullitt4711

Wow, its great to see all the friendships that have been built here and to see the debates still ragin. I love it.

~Colby

P.S. Oh and for anyone from in SoCal area, a gruop of friends and myself are having an OPEN CAR MEET!

A date has finally been set for the San Diego Meet. We're going to meet at the Canon Building in Mira Mesa (see map below) and then caravan to another location around 11:30-12:00. We'll hang out there for about 1-1 1/2 hrs before leaving for the cruise. We'll be running the road up to Palomar Mountain. I'll post the rest of the details (a scheduled breakdown of the day, dircections for the cruise, my cell#, where we'll eat,etc) a little later, but for now consider this a role call sheet. Post if you're going to coming to this huge meet. It will have close to more than 125 cars (Mustangs, Camaros, Celicas, maybe a few WRX's, possibly some GS400's/IS300's, and probably some older hot rods). This will be the biggest mixed meet ever in San Diego in both size and range with attendees stretching from Texas to Canada. So come out and make it a success.


~Colby

Bullitt4711

Wow, its great to see all the friendships that have been built here and to see the debates still ragin. I love it.

~Colby

P.S. Oh and for anyone from in SoCal area, a gruop of friends and myself are having an OPEN CAR MEET!

A date has finally been set for the San Diego Meet. We're going to meet at the Canon Building in Mira Mesa (see map below) and then caravan to another location around 11:30-12:00. We'll hang out there for about 1-1 1/2 hrs before leaving for the cruise. We'll be running the road up to Palomar Mountain. I'll post the rest of the details (a scheduled breakdown of the day, dircections for the cruise, my cell#, where we'll eat,etc) a little later, but for now consider this a role call sheet. Post if you're going to coming to this huge meet. It will have close to more than 125 cars (Mustangs, Camaros, Celicas, maybe a few WRX's, possibly some GS400's/IS300's, and probably some older hot rods). This will be the biggest mixed meet ever in San Diego in both size and range with attendees stretching from Texas to Canada. So come out and make it a success.


~Colby

D'oh

Yeah, these are some of the points I was afraid of (not because they are bad points, but because they are probably correct and mean that I may not get to have a $30,000 sports car with vette performance unless I buy used).

I agree with the vette being the premier GM car, and right now, it's just about the only GM car I'd want to own. However, I don't want to own it because it is a status symbol, or anything like that. The only reason I want one is because it is simply the best performing sports car for under 70K (or whatever the Viper is costing these days). Most of the people I know who have vettes like them for that same reason (although I don't know too many people who are 50+)

I'm still hoping that the success of the EVO and STI and the Z will make GM realize that a $30K variant of the vette (could be a completely different car, but with similar performance to TODAY's vette - that way it won't compete with the C6) would be very successful.

Anyhow, I guess I've drifted way off topic, so I'll just let this go.

-D'oh!

Daytona Blue Z in Bo

FYI - Nissan makes a 4.5 Liter V8 that puts out:

Horsepower 340 @ 6,400 RPM

Torque 333 lb-ft @ 4,000 RPM

BlackDemon

Got a link or any other info?
Or should we just take your word for it?

jooklum99

The engine is the VK45DE and his specs are correct.

here is an infinity link:


There was even a dyno there this afternoon.

Back to being Switzerland....not taking sides in this one.
http://www.infinitinews.com/infiniti...q45/tech.shtml