Decent Path to NA..?
08-14-2012, 02:24 PM
#21
There is a lot of speculation in here and I think some misled posts, show me where head work has made power on an NA car, even boosted cars really don't do head work, the heads flow really well from the factory, the known bottle necks will be the upper plenum and the headers. For a car that he makes it seem he wants to be strong and reliable for road course racing, I would enjoy better bearings, a rev up oil pump stronger, balanced and coated internals that would stand up to heat and have tighter tolerances would be better for what he will do, a stock HR engine with bolt ons will make the same hp as a built de but not the torque
I don't know how much I like doing an HR swap, a decent junk yard hr and transmission and that super inflated cost of that harness with the new stuff to make the HR work would probably reach the same $$.
Forced induction for road racing may not be the best of ideas, a vortech would be at the top of it's operating level if properly set up and I would worry about heat and over doing the bearings. I am sure others have different input here, but that is my 2 cents
As for the v8 swap, sikky is getting bad reviews from users, I guess fueled racing makes a better kit but I have no experience here, look through the FAQ for ls swaps
I hope you make a well informed decision and all goes well for you in whatever you decide to do
I don't know how much I like doing an HR swap, a decent junk yard hr and transmission and that super inflated cost of that harness with the new stuff to make the HR work would probably reach the same $$.
Forced induction for road racing may not be the best of ideas, a vortech would be at the top of it's operating level if properly set up and I would worry about heat and over doing the bearings. I am sure others have different input here, but that is my 2 cents
As for the v8 swap, sikky is getting bad reviews from users, I guess fueled racing makes a better kit but I have no experience here, look through the FAQ for ls swaps
I hope you make a well informed decision and all goes well for you in whatever you decide to do
08-14-2012, 02:29 PM
#23
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+1 on starting with an HR vs a DE.
The HR is simply a much better starting point for a "mild" build. If you're not going to be swapping out every internal component (and perhaps even if you are), you're gaining soooooo many improvements with the HR engine over the DE. There are a ton of areas that you may be considering "upgrading" on the DE that you may not have to even touch with the HR: valve springs, pistons, rods, crank, intake/TB/plenum, oil pump, etc. etc. etc. so that you can use that money in other areas.
In no particular order...
1) Dual intakes/throttle-bodies
- Thanks to SG/z1auto, we know that intake restriction is a huge problem for the DEs.
- The HR's have dual throttle-bodies for less restriction
- The throttle bodies are on the SIDE of the plenum, vs the BACK on the DE, further decreasing restriction. The huge bend radius that the intake tube has to make to reach the back of the DE is seen as a major restriction.
- We haven't had the same level of "experimentation" with the HR, but...the HR improvements may mean you don't have to touch the intake side of things, at all. At the very least, you're starting off with a much better starting point.
2) Deck height
HR engine block is supposed to be around 20mm taller, allowing for longer rods. This makes the HR more rev-friendly.
3) Stronger internals
Self explanatory -- they can handle more power and higher revs.
4) Stronger valve springs
You may be able to get away with stock HR springs, vs being forced to upgrade them on the DE.
5) Higher compression ratio
Only slightly higher (10.6 vs 10.3). The pistons also have asymmetric side skirts for less friction, though. May make it easier to decide not to touch the pistons.
6) DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating for lower friction
Lower friction = more power.
7) CVTC on the exhaust cam -- DE only has it on the intake side
Several of us have done a group buy on the PPE's and they are now in production. You should have a LOT of results to read through in the near future: https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...s-finally.html
Full list of HR improvements over the DE, lifted from elsewhere:
HR stands for High Response (or High Revolution)
5th Generation of the VQ.
Redline increase to 7500rpm
Higher compression ratio: 10.6:1 (previously 10.3:1)
Redesigned block for increased rigidity: ladder frame reinforcment
Increased height of cylinder blocks
New cylinder heads
Improved coolant system flow
Worldwide first hydrogen free DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating for lowered frictionon valve lifters
Stronger valve springs
Larger valve diameters
Hydraulic CVTC on intake side
Electromagnetic CVTC on exhaust side
Adoption of isometric exhaust manifold
Equal length exhaust manifold
Reinforced Chain cover
Sound insulating engine cover
New oil pump rotor
Reinforced oil pan
Enlarged crank journal diameter
Enlarged diameter crank pin
Twin knock sensors
Symmetric intake system
Straight inlet port
Iridium spark plugs
Spark plug modified into M12
Asymmetric piston skirt
Longer Conrod
Processing PVD Piston Ring
The HR is simply a much better starting point for a "mild" build. If you're not going to be swapping out every internal component (and perhaps even if you are), you're gaining soooooo many improvements with the HR engine over the DE. There are a ton of areas that you may be considering "upgrading" on the DE that you may not have to even touch with the HR: valve springs, pistons, rods, crank, intake/TB/plenum, oil pump, etc. etc. etc. so that you can use that money in other areas.
In no particular order...
1) Dual intakes/throttle-bodies
- Thanks to SG/z1auto, we know that intake restriction is a huge problem for the DEs.
- The HR's have dual throttle-bodies for less restriction
- The throttle bodies are on the SIDE of the plenum, vs the BACK on the DE, further decreasing restriction. The huge bend radius that the intake tube has to make to reach the back of the DE is seen as a major restriction.
- We haven't had the same level of "experimentation" with the HR, but...the HR improvements may mean you don't have to touch the intake side of things, at all. At the very least, you're starting off with a much better starting point.
2) Deck height
HR engine block is supposed to be around 20mm taller, allowing for longer rods. This makes the HR more rev-friendly.
3) Stronger internals
Self explanatory -- they can handle more power and higher revs.
4) Stronger valve springs
You may be able to get away with stock HR springs, vs being forced to upgrade them on the DE.
5) Higher compression ratio
Only slightly higher (10.6 vs 10.3). The pistons also have asymmetric side skirts for less friction, though. May make it easier to decide not to touch the pistons.
6) DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating for lower friction
Lower friction = more power.
7) CVTC on the exhaust cam -- DE only has it on the intake side
Several of us have done a group buy on the PPE's and they are now in production. You should have a LOT of results to read through in the near future: https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...s-finally.html
Full list of HR improvements over the DE, lifted from elsewhere:
HR stands for High Response (or High Revolution)
5th Generation of the VQ.
Redline increase to 7500rpm
Higher compression ratio: 10.6:1 (previously 10.3:1)
Redesigned block for increased rigidity: ladder frame reinforcment
Increased height of cylinder blocks
New cylinder heads
Improved coolant system flow
Worldwide first hydrogen free DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating for lowered frictionon valve lifters
Stronger valve springs
Larger valve diameters
Hydraulic CVTC on intake side
Electromagnetic CVTC on exhaust side
Adoption of isometric exhaust manifold
Equal length exhaust manifold
Reinforced Chain cover
Sound insulating engine cover
New oil pump rotor
Reinforced oil pan
Enlarged crank journal diameter
Enlarged diameter crank pin
Twin knock sensors
Symmetric intake system
Straight inlet port
Iridium spark plugs
Spark plug modified into M12
Asymmetric piston skirt
Longer Conrod
Processing PVD Piston Ring
Last edited by hydeciel; 08-14-2012 at 03:11 PM.
08-14-2012, 02:43 PM
#24
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There is a lot of speculation in here and I think some misled posts, show me where head work has made power on an NA car, even boosted cars really don't do head work, the heads flow really well from the factory, the known bottle necks will be the upper plenum and the headers. For a car that he makes it seem he wants to be strong and reliable for road course racing, I would enjoy better bearings, a rev up oil pump stronger, balanced and coated internals that would stand up to heat and have tighter tolerances would be better for what he will do, a stock HR engine with bolt ons will make the same hp as a built de but not the torque
I don't know how much I like doing an HR swap, a decent junk yard hr and transmission and that super inflated cost of that harness with the new stuff to make the HR work would probably reach the same $$.
Forced induction for road racing may not be the best of ideas, a vortech would be at the top of it's operating level if properly set up and I would worry about heat and over doing the bearings. I am sure others have different input here, but that is my 2 cents
As for the v8 swap, sikky is getting bad reviews from users, I guess fueled racing makes a better kit but I have no experience here, look through the FAQ for ls swaps
I hope you make a well informed decision and all goes well for you in whatever you decide to do
Also, if you plan 10k for a budget, you should be fine if you do a lot of the work yourself, I paid about $9k and I bought a used cd009 transmission and tuning cost me a lot due to problems that I had to pay shop hours for...
I don't know how much I like doing an HR swap, a decent junk yard hr and transmission and that super inflated cost of that harness with the new stuff to make the HR work would probably reach the same $$.
Forced induction for road racing may not be the best of ideas, a vortech would be at the top of it's operating level if properly set up and I would worry about heat and over doing the bearings. I am sure others have different input here, but that is my 2 cents
As for the v8 swap, sikky is getting bad reviews from users, I guess fueled racing makes a better kit but I have no experience here, look through the FAQ for ls swaps
I hope you make a well informed decision and all goes well for you in whatever you decide to do
Also, if you plan 10k for a budget, you should be fine if you do a lot of the work yourself, I paid about $9k and I bought a used cd009 transmission and tuning cost me a lot due to problems that I had to pay shop hours for...
08-14-2012, 04:19 PM
#25
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he's saying it's a good starting point because you don't have to do internals to enjoy it NA...simple bolt ons and tune and you got a near 300whp power!
Have you contact Z fever on the cost of rewiring a harness? I told told it was near the ball park of 1500-2k for it?
Have you contact Z fever on the cost of rewiring a harness? I told told it was near the ball park of 1500-2k for it?
08-14-2012, 05:06 PM
#26
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Update:
I don't see a posting on their site. There is a listening for a service, but that's for 750. I looked at their thread and they said around 2k, just as you said. They do offer a mail service.
Last edited by hydeciel; 08-14-2012 at 05:19 PM.
08-14-2012, 05:28 PM
#27
+1 on starting with an HR vs a DE.
The HR is simply a much better starting point for a "mild" build. If you're not going to be swapping out every internal component (and perhaps even if you are), you're gaining soooooo many improvements with the HR engine over the DE. There are a ton of areas that you may be considering "upgrading" on the DE that you may not have to even touch with the HR: valve springs, pistons, rods, crank, intake/TB/plenum, oil pump, etc. etc. etc. so that you can use that money in other areas.
In no particular order...
1) Dual intakes/throttle-bodies
- Thanks to SG/z1auto, we know that intake restriction is a huge problem for the DEs.
- The HR's have dual throttle-bodies for less restriction
- The throttle bodies are on the SIDE of the plenum, vs the BACK on the DE, further decreasing restriction. The huge bend radius that the intake tube has to make to reach the back of the DE is seen as a major restriction.
- We haven't had the same level of "experimentation" with the HR, but...the HR improvements may mean you don't have to touch the intake side of things, at all. At the very least, you're starting off with a much better starting point.
The HR is simply a much better starting point for a "mild" build. If you're not going to be swapping out every internal component (and perhaps even if you are), you're gaining soooooo many improvements with the HR engine over the DE. There are a ton of areas that you may be considering "upgrading" on the DE that you may not have to even touch with the HR: valve springs, pistons, rods, crank, intake/TB/plenum, oil pump, etc. etc. etc. so that you can use that money in other areas.
In no particular order...
1) Dual intakes/throttle-bodies
- Thanks to SG/z1auto, we know that intake restriction is a huge problem for the DEs.
- The HR's have dual throttle-bodies for less restriction
- The throttle bodies are on the SIDE of the plenum, vs the BACK on the DE, further decreasing restriction. The huge bend radius that the intake tube has to make to reach the back of the DE is seen as a major restriction.
- We haven't had the same level of "experimentation" with the HR, but...the HR improvements may mean you don't have to touch the intake side of things, at all. At the very least, you're starting off with a much better starting point.
-you can do this with the DE revup motors and it actually shows no significant top end gains. It's the headers that open up the top.
Several of us have done a group buy on the PPE's and they are now in production. You should have a LOT of results to read through in the near future: https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...s-finally.html
Full list of HR improvements over the DE, lifted from elsewhere:
HR stands for High Response (or High Revolution)
5th Generation of the VQ.
Redline increase to 7500rpm
Higher compression ratio: 10.6:1 (previously 10.3:1)
Redesigned block for increased rigidity: ladder frame reinforcment
Increased height of cylinder blocks
New cylinder heads
Improved coolant system flow
Worldwide first hydrogen free DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating for lowered frictionon valve lifters
Stronger valve springs
Larger valve diameters
Hydraulic CVTC on intake side
Electromagnetic CVTC on exhaust side
Adoption of isometric exhaust manifold
Equal length exhaust manifold
Reinforced Chain cover
Sound insulating engine cover
New oil pump rotor
Reinforced oil pan
Enlarged crank journal diameter
Enlarged diameter crank pin
Twin knock sensors
Symmetric intake system
Straight inlet port
Iridium spark plugs
Spark plug modified into M12
Asymmetric piston skirt
Longer Conrod
Processing PVD Piston Ring
HR stands for High Response (or High Revolution)
5th Generation of the VQ.
Redline increase to 7500rpm
Higher compression ratio: 10.6:1 (previously 10.3:1)
Redesigned block for increased rigidity: ladder frame reinforcment
Increased height of cylinder blocks
New cylinder heads
Improved coolant system flow
Worldwide first hydrogen free DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating for lowered frictionon valve lifters
Stronger valve springs
Larger valve diameters
Hydraulic CVTC on intake side
Electromagnetic CVTC on exhaust side
Adoption of isometric exhaust manifold
Equal length exhaust manifold
Reinforced Chain cover
Sound insulating engine cover
New oil pump rotor
Reinforced oil pan
Enlarged crank journal diameter
Enlarged diameter crank pin
Twin knock sensors
Symmetric intake system
Straight inlet port
Iridium spark plugs
Spark plug modified into M12
Asymmetric piston skirt
Longer Conrod
Processing PVD Piston Ring
Last edited by kacz07; 08-14-2012 at 06:09 PM.
08-14-2012, 05:41 PM
#28
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^Yeah, I've been doing a lot of research on the HR and I am coming to a similar conclusion. The HR conversion seems not worth it. Although, yes it would be a good starting platform, but the cost and effort just to convert everything over seems unreasonable.
Just to do a HR conversion
Extra cost of HR vs DE (on average) +1-2k
Harness +2k
other required items +2k
Lots of effort
The DE seems a lot more cost effective.
Just to do a HR conversion
Extra cost of HR vs DE (on average) +1-2k
Harness +2k
other required items +2k
Lots of effort
The DE seems a lot more cost effective.
Last edited by hydeciel; 08-14-2012 at 05:47 PM.
08-14-2012, 06:03 PM
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Is the Forged Performance S1 Shortblock good for NA purposes? It is very reasonably priced!
http://www.forgedperformance.com/sto...at=1837&page=1
It mentions designed to compliment FI. Here is the desciption.
Our S1 shortblock is designed to compliment the current forced induction systems on the market. Rated at 700whp+, this is the perfect match for Greddy, APS, and JWT Twin Turbo, and single turbo systems. When comparing our shortblocks against all others, LOOK at the details of what you are paying for. We use the best components and sound machining practices. Our blocks have been proven nearly idestructable, by some of the toughest street and track drivers around.
Forged Performance S1 Shortblock:
FP Spec/Arias Extreme Duty Pistons
Manley H-Beam Connecting Rods
ACL Main and Rod Bearings
ARP Main Studs
Cleaned, machined, and assembled to perfection.
Balanced and Polished Crankshaft
http://www.forgedperformance.com/sto...at=1837&page=1
It mentions designed to compliment FI. Here is the desciption.
Our S1 shortblock is designed to compliment the current forced induction systems on the market. Rated at 700whp+, this is the perfect match for Greddy, APS, and JWT Twin Turbo, and single turbo systems. When comparing our shortblocks against all others, LOOK at the details of what you are paying for. We use the best components and sound machining practices. Our blocks have been proven nearly idestructable, by some of the toughest street and track drivers around.
Forged Performance S1 Shortblock:
FP Spec/Arias Extreme Duty Pistons
Manley H-Beam Connecting Rods
ACL Main and Rod Bearings
ARP Main Studs
Cleaned, machined, and assembled to perfection.
Balanced and Polished Crankshaft
08-14-2012, 06:21 PM
#32
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When I mentioned the short block. I wasn't referring to power gains, more reliability and durability. I apologize for not making that clear. I do recall earlier that we discussed the cams were key for NA power.
I guess what I am looking for now is a reliable platform, forgetting about cams, headers, and intake for a moment. I feel we hashed that out pretty well earlier in our conversations. I will definitely go back to it, but just want to narrow down a cost effective, and efficient way to strengthen the internals. Like when you mentioned the JWT Springs and Shims.
Ok, here is my current inquiry. If I had a used VQ35DE on a crate. What would I want to upgrade to improve durability/reliability in a VQ35DE? How critical would those upgrades be for reliability? If they are costly, could I safely get by without them, as in it is just a nice to have?
I have JWT Springs and Shims so far. I would suspect upgrading the rods?
or, what about getting a pre-built short block like FP's and build around it?
After that is determined. I think I can start narrowing down the parts!
I guess what I am looking for now is a reliable platform, forgetting about cams, headers, and intake for a moment. I feel we hashed that out pretty well earlier in our conversations. I will definitely go back to it, but just want to narrow down a cost effective, and efficient way to strengthen the internals. Like when you mentioned the JWT Springs and Shims.
Ok, here is my current inquiry. If I had a used VQ35DE on a crate. What would I want to upgrade to improve durability/reliability in a VQ35DE? How critical would those upgrades be for reliability? If they are costly, could I safely get by without them, as in it is just a nice to have?
I have JWT Springs and Shims so far. I would suspect upgrading the rods?
or, what about getting a pre-built short block like FP's and build around it?
After that is determined. I think I can start narrowing down the parts!
Last edited by hydeciel; 08-14-2012 at 06:28 PM.
08-14-2012, 09:49 PM
#34
Ok, this is my personal opinion here, and by no means take it as law...
I would upgrade to eagle rods and a 11:1 compression piston and possibly some coatings on the pistons, (I got mine coated for free) eagle rods because I would rather know I have a stronger rod in there, but you don't need a beefy big boost one in there, and pistons, they will be lighter, and an issue VQ motors seem to have is piston rings are kinda loose and can cause blow by and eventually a popped motor (happened to my stock motor)
A good set of bearings, I had I want to say acl bearings and I had them coated
A rev up oil pump
An ATI crank pulley and have them balance the entire rotating assembly, my machinist did everything from the crank pulley to the clutch, and it felt a lot better and if I ever found a way to make power at a higher rpm, I wanted to make sure all was balanced for it, the ATI pulley is heavier than stock and is over driven not under, but it works better than the stock pulley and don't go with an aluminum pulley....
A Nissan gasket kit and you should be fine with an OEM gasket kit, I think that is all I did to the inside of the block minus actual machine work to it
What I will suggest is if you have not upgraded your clutch and flywheel, this is the best time to do it, I feel like I am missing more, but I infant think... I hate traveling for work... I am sure some of the other people who have actually gone down the NA route can help me out with anything I missed
I would upgrade to eagle rods and a 11:1 compression piston and possibly some coatings on the pistons, (I got mine coated for free) eagle rods because I would rather know I have a stronger rod in there, but you don't need a beefy big boost one in there, and pistons, they will be lighter, and an issue VQ motors seem to have is piston rings are kinda loose and can cause blow by and eventually a popped motor (happened to my stock motor)
A good set of bearings, I had I want to say acl bearings and I had them coated
A rev up oil pump
An ATI crank pulley and have them balance the entire rotating assembly, my machinist did everything from the crank pulley to the clutch, and it felt a lot better and if I ever found a way to make power at a higher rpm, I wanted to make sure all was balanced for it, the ATI pulley is heavier than stock and is over driven not under, but it works better than the stock pulley and don't go with an aluminum pulley....
A Nissan gasket kit and you should be fine with an OEM gasket kit, I think that is all I did to the inside of the block minus actual machine work to it
What I will suggest is if you have not upgraded your clutch and flywheel, this is the best time to do it, I feel like I am missing more, but I infant think... I hate traveling for work... I am sure some of the other people who have actually gone down the NA route can help me out with anything I missed
08-15-2012, 08:43 AM
#36
Although I overbuilt mine for NA purposes, But I think the less you take apart the better. JWT knows these engines inside and out and continue to come out with new products, but have yet to really say you need anything more than the springs and shims kit for their products. Their TT setup doesn't even require internals to be modded. These guys would've told SG and other NA enthusiasts if more was required.
For some peace of mind, I added the following:
-GTM oil cooler (cooler temps)
-JWT oil pan spacer (adds a quart of oil)
-Cosworth oil pan baffle (keeps oil out of crankcase flowing one way to oil feed/sump)
-Fluidampr crank pulley (for high revs)
-revup oil pump (I have a revup engine)
I bought a long block service from IPP and had the coatings, pistons with 11.5:1 CR, bearings, rods, Ferrea valve train w +1mm oversized valves, etc., but I really don't think you need it. Only now, with my upcoming project, do I think I'll actually benefit from the headwork and valves.
For some peace of mind, I added the following:
-GTM oil cooler (cooler temps)
-JWT oil pan spacer (adds a quart of oil)
-Cosworth oil pan baffle (keeps oil out of crankcase flowing one way to oil feed/sump)
-Fluidampr crank pulley (for high revs)
-revup oil pump (I have a revup engine)
I bought a long block service from IPP and had the coatings, pistons with 11.5:1 CR, bearings, rods, Ferrea valve train w +1mm oversized valves, etc., but I really don't think you need it. Only now, with my upcoming project, do I think I'll actually benefit from the headwork and valves.
08-15-2012, 12:34 PM
#37
Registered User
You do know the HR oil pump is considerably bigger and heavy duty compared to the Rev-up oil pump. odd thing is setting non Rev-up and Rev-up oil pumps side by side they're identical, the gear of the Rev-up is a tiny bit heavier probably due to stronger materials and something with the spring if I remember correctly. I doubt there is a noticeable difference in the two. The HR oil pump is a lot more stout than either of the other two. Unfortunately an HR oil pump can not be installed on the DE.
08-15-2012, 02:10 PM
#38
You just said a lot of words that didn't really come to any helpful conclusion....
What I will say about the oil pump, you should replace it because, it is a pain in the butt to do with the engine in the car and I want peice of mind, that little spring difference and stronger material sounds good to me.
Why bring up the hr pump if it won't work.... That is like saying, man a ported LS6 oil pump works great, but it won't work on a VQ...
What I will say about the oil pump, you should replace it because, it is a pain in the butt to do with the engine in the car and I want peice of mind, that little spring difference and stronger material sounds good to me.
Why bring up the hr pump if it won't work.... That is like saying, man a ported LS6 oil pump works great, but it won't work on a VQ...
08-15-2012, 02:14 PM
#39
To follow up on what Kacz said, I planned to upgrade the radiator and install an oil cooler and eventually do an HR cooling mod, I like how it gets rid of the coolant hard pipes on the sides of the engine and has better efficiency cooling the engine (cools better and weighs less) but I am not sure if Z1motorsports ever released the kit
08-15-2012, 07:35 PM
#40
You do know the HR oil pump is considerably bigger and heavy duty compared to the Rev-up oil pump. odd thing is setting non Rev-up and Rev-up oil pumps side by side they're identical, the gear of the Rev-up is a tiny bit heavier probably due to stronger materials and something with the spring if I remember correctly. I doubt there is a noticeable difference in the two. The HR oil pump is a lot more stout than either of the other two. Unfortunately an HR oil pump can not be installed on the DE.
http://forums.maxima.org/all-motor/5...oil-pumps.html
Other options for astronomical prices:
http://www.nismo.co.jp/en/products/c...re_oilpump.pdf
And
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Cosw...-2009-350Z-G35