hydeciel

Hello,

I want to do a NA build. I have a 2003 Base 350z with no engine mods, a good deal of suspension mods, and some minor transmission work.

After this past weekend at the track for a PDX event. I realized how much I loved my Z. Originally, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with it as far as power goes such as FI or NA, or keep it stock. My goal is now to have a engine that is reliable with linear, gradual, predictable power through the RPM range. Increase HP, Torque, and RPM range.

As for the car, it is not a daily driver, but it will be on the street from time to time, mainly to and from the track. It will be used for time trials and PDX, maybe some other events.

I have been doing a great deal of research on NA builds for our Z. After reading SGSash's website and articles, I learned a great deal on NA builds for our VQs.

Thanks to SGSash, I learned it is possible to make a big difference with Intake, Cams, and Headers. I know there is more to it such as Plenums, TBs, Stroke, Bore, Springs/valve, exhaust, and rods.

I am going to get a VQ35DE from a junk yard and rebuild it over the winter. Looking to spend around 5-10k. My father will be helping me out with the engine build. He's built many engines, mostly Chevy though.

Where should I start? What is the path of least resistance? Specific question below:

Intake: Based off, SGSash's research there seems to be an issue with the efficiency of getting air into the engine. A better plenum with larger TB or ITB would solve this problem, but there doesn't seem to be a better one of the market. Can't seem to find anything of worth such as from Kinetix, and Coswroth. The Carbotron Plenum seemed impressive, the one SGSash used, but not widely available it would seem. Any ideas?

Headers: The long tube headers SGSash produced seemed very effective, but other than him there doesn't seem to be a lot of good data out there on other long tube headers. Also, I suspect these go outside what is street legal as far as noise, right? If so, I would consider another option. Any suggestions there?

Also, I plan on doing some development/experimentation for our ECU's as well, tuning the car myself. I've done some hardware hacking in the past, plus I sort of reverse engineer things for a living, so I thought this would be an area I could help improve. Give more in sight into.

Current Event Update from post 49 and to the end of page 3:
Did a great deal more research. I have a preliminary list of parts. I wanted to see what you guys thought. I am going to do the build in four stages.
1-Efficiency Stage, 2-Intake Stage, 3-Exhaust Stage, 4-Engine Stage
Each stage will come with a before and after dyno with heat data. I go to the track a lot so I will be going to the track after each stage. Giving my review of the changes and how the changes effect the car on the track.

Efficiency Stage:

• Oil Cooler
• PS Cooler
• Pathfinder Bypass Cooling Mod
• Mishimoto 350Z Thermostat
• Fix for the fuel starvation issue on hard right turns (Ideas?)

Intake Stage:

• 06 Airbox
• MD MREV2
• 3-4" MAF Housing (I see it mentioned a lot, but I can't find it anywhere for sale or it isn't clearly labeled as a 3" MAF housing)

Exhaust Stage:

• MotorDyne XYZ /w HFC
• PPE Long Tube Headers
• Greddy Ti-C Single Exhaust

Engine Stage:

• IPP Stage 2 VQ35 Long Block
• Cams (Need more research)

Current Mods:
ACT Clutch and Lightweight Flywheel
Kaaz LSD 1.5way
Sikky Trans Mount
Nismo Pilot Bearing
Fortune Auto 510 Coilovers
Megan Racing Camber and Toe arms

Suggestions?

juicinjake

iTrader: (6)

it was my understanding that the carbotron plenum is/was available and is priced in the $2k range

KingBaby

iTrader: (3)

You seem serious, but you mention SG too many times leading me to relieve your search was to main stream. We have a couple members here on the board who have put in the time and the money which yielded in results!

Please reread the NA build of this site!

hydeciel

I mention SG a lot because his posts and articles are what I read the most recently. They are just fresh in my mind. Also, he has a great deal of detail and empirical data on his articles. It gave me a greater understanding into engines and what effects what. I really enjoyed Adam's engine build as well, read it a few times, and a few others. I will definitely continue to do more research. Any suggestions on threads to read?

Cool, I went to their website and searched around. Wasn't able to find much. I'll check it out. Do you think the cost is worth it? I think I recall cosworth plenum was around 1-1.5k?

rich2342

iTrader: (3)

sub'd. Also might want to look into PPE longtubes if they ever get them made. Probably go with Uprev for your tuning needs.

kacz07

iTrader: (15)

Intake: ITBs (3k), if not, get a Cosworth (1200)and mate it to a 4" intake/MAF tube (?)
Engine: JWT valve springs and shims (150), headwork (?), JWT cams (1k)
Exhaust: PPE long tubes (1200)
Tuning (starting at 3k):AEM, FCON, Haltech, or MoTeC. UpRev if you go with tuning by MAF.

Done.

You're looking at least 8-10k in parts. You'll get 330-370whp, depending on intake and cams. Lower than that if you're AT.

Classy

iTrader: (7)

I like where you are going with this, being the kinda build I think you are going for, I will put some input in that may make it alittle less streetable.

There is a guy who is not visiting the site who competed very successfully in NASA PTB with a little more aggressive setup, he had 12:1 compression pistons and ran e85. I am not sure it made him anymore power but if you followed sg's stuff you probably know they didn't make any power from it either.

Plenum. Yes SG made an ITB setup work, but I doubt you will see an ITB setup on the market that works, so in a sad way, abandon that... Here is where there has been some success, and it is cheaper than a cosworth (still not sure if this makes power)

I believe z1 I think auto did an NA build back in the day and cut up a stock upper plenum, put a larger pipe going from the plenum to the TB, and put a 90mm LS cable driven TB on and netted another 20ish hp, in doing this, he lost cruise control so you won't see many frequently driven street cars with this. I think SG did something very similar but expanded the neck into the plenum

Cams is 90% of where you will get your power, once you have a very good idea of compression, header choice, and so on call JWT and talk to hopefully Jim Wolfe and find a cam to fit your build. I think you will be going more aggressive and I hope you the best in cam choice, I personally ran JWT 272 degree cams and may have had too large of a cam. What I loved about your post is that it had nothing in there saying you wanted to rev to the moon. If you do some good plenum mods, the right cam, you may make power to 7k

Headers/exhaust, I like that PPE is making these, I highly recommend getting a set of these, for racing purposes, I personally like motordyne xyz y pipe and an AAM or a custom built single exhaust to save on weight, a 3 inch exhaust will treat you fine

Oil pump should be upgraded to a rev up

Head work... I am pretty unconvinced that any head work makes power, just get upgraded springs for the bigger cams

I am by no means the smartest guy out there on a NA build, I am telling you what I learned from my experience and what I have read on this forum, I hope you the best in your build

lillong1991

iTrader: (3)

Never really been a fan of VQ NA builds. It cost a lot of money for very little power. The most I have seen with a NA builds is 320whp by the Z1 car 4 years ago. Why not FI? SOHO Motorsports had a time attack G35 with a momentum kit on it making around 400whp and that lasted until they decided to make their own kit.

If your really worried about reliability, ever though of a LSx build? their very impressive IMO and I think your father could really help you out on that.

juicinjake

iTrader: (6)

i agree 100%! its when a well matched cam, head, compression and header come together that a motor really shines... so long as the intake side of things isnt holding it back.

if head work didnt make power on these cars it would be the only powerplant ever that was that way. i think what he meant to say was that for stock heads, cam and compression, the gains from headwork arent dramatic or convincing (based on tested results, not speculation, as classy subtly pointed out). that said, a properly done port job should gain across the powerband, and no matter what sort of racing you are doing, power under the curve is appreciable. if you are doing cams you are gonna have to build the heads. you might as well do some work to them while they are off. they are going to gain as much or more than the bigger tb and intake on a build like yours. if thats worth doing, so is headwork. i think one reason headwork never caught on big with this community is that so many people are charging so much money for doing so little work. u want fully worked heads from gtm and its $5500. thats crazy. $3500 maybe... for that amount you get a valvejob and inspection lol. For the 20hp+ you are going to gain, 5 g's isnt worth it. There are some other places, m2 race systems for one, that have posted good numbers on their website for substantially less money than what gtm is charging. I have heard good things about head games from a lot of people, but I cant find any info on their pricing. All I am saying here is that head porting is something that should be considered based on the following factors: your build/combo, your budget, how far into the motor you have gone for a given stage of your build. if you are doing everything all at once and are building the bottom end, sure go for it. if you are just throwing cams, intake manifold and headers at a stock shortblock, I wouldn't waste your time/money. Then, if a rod lets go you havent pissed away at the very least half of 3-5k. just my .02!

juicinjake

iTrader: (6)

Also, really good advice. The LSX Z/G cars I have seen havent had any trouble getting into the 11s, whereas the NA v6 guys arent even close. The torque really is a lot of fun (sort of like a vq on the bottle but all the time). For what you put into an NA vq to go high 12's, you could be in the mid 11's with on an lsx combination. I also think they are lighter than the vq, but I could be wrong about that.

Duckeee

iTrader: (7)

i would not spend such money on an NA VQ build unfortunately.

KingBaby

iTrader: (3)

If you plan to spend 5-10k...I wouldn't buy a DE or REVup. I would look for a HR or VHR seeing a harness can be brought from Z fever! Save some headaches tryna make up space!

I think after basic bolt ons and a tune...supporting mods should be looked at. Final drives, flywheel/clutch, and weight of the vehicle. 300hp +/- on a 3000lbs +/- is enough for track use to have fun/learn. If it's a dedicated track car another 250lbs+/- can be lost.

Like many have said it's somewhat a waste, unless you love the loud, unruly, and harmonic piercing note the VQ gives off...

I do that's why I'm staying NA on this car...I'll dabble in evils of boost on a 240sx 240Z

keep us posted!

hydeciel

As for goals, I am not looking to drag race this car. I am more looking in doing road racing, time trials, and such.

Very good to know. This is a great guideline to an NA build. I wonder if we pretty this up and add some more detail to it. It could be used as a sticky to give future NA dreamers, a helpful guideline.


Yeah, I've been concerned about the intake/plenum/TB portion. Where has there been some success? Not sure, if what you were going to mention got posted. I've been skeptical about the cosworth plenum. I haven't seen good data from it.

I saw that. I will have to look at it again. You think there is some promise in this area, or am I going to have to Fab something?

Yes, I think this will be an area which I need to do a lot more research in. It seems critical. After looking around, there are a surprising number of options for cams. Thanks for the comments btw.

The PPE's seem promising and seem to have a lot of buzz. You, rich2342, and kacz07 suggested them. I can't wait to see more data on them. Would these cause more noise than say the NISMO headers as far as dBs? If so, how much more? Personally, not a huge fan of horribly loud cars. That is my only other concern.


You make some good points. Yes, my father can help me with the LS2 build (considered this heavily with the SIKKY kit) and other engine builds, but I am not going for the straight line MAX power. I want a balance between power and maneuverability. LS2 would add 100-200lbs+, not looking for the added weight.

As for the FI, I was originally thinking SC, but after I went PDXing this past weekend. Made my way from Novice class, intermediate, and then approved to drive in the advanced class to do solo driving. I was passing Z01s, Cayman S, etc. I realized I didn't need a great deal of straight line power. I am more of an in the corners kind of guy. This is due to my driving style which depends on patterns and the car being predictable, consistent. I do want more power, but FI adds complexity when it isn't necessarily needed. I feel NA will give me a consistent, linear predictable power band, fairly ensure reliability, and keep the complexity down.

I haven't entirely ruled out a SC, but I am not considering turbo. I would really like to see a SC 350z.

That being said, I will be happy with 306-320whp, completely. I need to figure out what classes this will put me in within SCCA and NASA leagues for when I decide, in the future, to race wheel to wheel.

hydeciel

Is the budget not enough? 5-10k in parts seemed like enough to me. Wasn't including labor in that btw.

What about going for something like this:
http://www.z1auto.com/prodmore.asp?m...ne&prodid=2445
Cosworth Built Short Block VQ35 - 7.8k and build the rest around it. Intake, Headers, Exhaust, and Cams. Bam done or no, not worth it? It seems almost un-needed good intake, cams, and exhaust including headers seem to be enough to achieve 300+whp, even with DE, ne?

lillong1991

iTrader: (3)

I live in MD too. I have a supercharger on my car and i love it. it made 442whp and 363wtq and i have had no issues with it so far. I dont track my car but i do push it hard from time to time. Its really nice power and i feels like im driving a V8. IMO it sounds insane as well, most people think im turboed. I defiantly suggest going to hill's garage for tuning. a lot of problems with reliability and other complications can be avoided with a good tuner

hydeciel

That is good to know. It might be something I will consider. Are you running a Vortech? Did you end up getting any engine upgrades such as Rods, springs, or sleeves?

Yeah, I really like hill's garage. I hear very good things about them from the people in the drifting community.

Ztouring04

iTrader: (11)

Just go turbo. I was trying to stay N/A. Is so expensive for little gains. I think I made 280rwhp after spending a boat load!,! Then I thought about nitrous and said screw it and went twin turbo.

doshoru

iTrader: (3)

+1 on starting with an HR vs a DE.

The HR is simply a much better starting point for a "mild" build. If you're not going to be swapping out every internal component (and perhaps even if you are), you're gaining soooooo many improvements with the HR engine over the DE. There are a ton of areas that you may be considering "upgrading" on the DE that you may not have to even touch with the HR: valve springs, pistons, rods, crank, intake/TB/plenum, oil pump, etc. etc. etc. so that you can use that money in other areas.

In no particular order...

1) Dual intakes/throttle-bodies
- Thanks to SG/z1auto, we know that intake restriction is a huge problem for the DEs.
- The HR's have dual throttle-bodies for less restriction
- The throttle bodies are on the SIDE of the plenum, vs the BACK on the DE, further decreasing restriction. The huge bend radius that the intake tube has to make to reach the back of the DE is seen as a major restriction.
- We haven't had the same level of "experimentation" with the HR, but...the HR improvements may mean you don't have to touch the intake side of things, at all. At the very least, you're starting off with a much better starting point.

2) Deck height
HR engine block is supposed to be around 20mm taller, allowing for longer rods. This makes the HR more rev-friendly.

3) Stronger internals
Self explanatory -- they can handle more power and higher revs.

4) Stronger valve springs
You may be able to get away with stock HR springs, vs being forced to upgrade them on the DE.

5) Higher compression ratio
Only slightly higher (10.6 vs 10.3). The pistons also have asymmetric side skirts for less friction, though. May make it easier to decide not to touch the pistons.

6) DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating for lower friction
Lower friction = more power.

7) CVTC on the exhaust cam -- DE only has it on the intake side

Several of us have done a group buy on the PPE's and they are now in production. You should have a LOT of results to read through in the near future: https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...s-finally.html


Full list of HR improvements over the DE, lifted from elsewhere:

HR stands for High Response (or High Revolution)
5th Generation of the VQ.
Redline increase to 7500rpm
Higher compression ratio: 10.6:1 (previously 10.3:1)
Redesigned block for increased rigidity: ladder frame reinforcment
Increased height of cylinder blocks
New cylinder heads
Improved coolant system flow
Worldwide first hydrogen free DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating for lowered frictionon valve lifters
Stronger valve springs
Larger valve diameters
Hydraulic CVTC on intake side
Electromagnetic CVTC on exhaust side
Adoption of isometric exhaust manifold
Equal length exhaust manifold
Reinforced Chain cover
Sound insulating engine cover
New oil pump rotor
Reinforced oil pan
Enlarged crank journal diameter
Enlarged diameter crank pin
Twin knock sensors
Symmetric intake system
Straight inlet port
Iridium spark plugs
Spark plug modified into M12
Asymmetric piston skirt
Longer Conrod
Processing PVD Piston Ring

lillong1991

iTrader: (3)

Nope, all stock motor. here is the link to my build. It will give you some advice on what you would need and how much it will cost. I included prices with the pictures.

https://my350z.com/forum/forced-indu...ld-begins.html

KingBaby

iTrader: (3)

Great post!