Gary and David, I've talked to you guys about this before, but I'm ready to upgrade to a more track ready brake kit and have some questions about your experience with Brembo and Stoptech. Dave, I know you just installed a ST on your G, so I'm curious about your NASA TT experience with them.

I like the Brembo due to flexibility. I am not stuck with buying rotors from just Nissan, as ST, DBA, AP, etc.. all make replacement rotors for the Track model. And pad selection is nice. Davis's car with the new Cobalts felt really good around Sandia. But, I would have to buy new wheels to clear the kit. Of course, this is offset by the fact that a used Brembo kit is about 2k less than a new ST kit.

The ST 13" and 12.9" 4 wheel kit will clear my 17" wheels and has great pad selection. But I am stuck with ST for replacement rotors, unless I order some custom disks from AP or DBA to mount to the ST hat. And the 4 wheel kit is pricey.

What this comes down to then, is track performance. I would love to hear what you guys have to say about knock back especially. I know both kits will be better than my floating calipers now, as I seem to have burned through enough piston boots to need an upgrade. But, the Brmbo doesn't seem to have the knockback issue. Any thoughts? Any issues you guys have seen or would have done differently? I really appreciate your feedback on track use,

Will

 

Will- I'll throw my $0.02 in here. You've driven my Z enough to know that the Brembos have been rock solid. While I love the BBK from AP Racing (right, Kev?), Stoptech (as a couple of Z pilots have) or even the BBK from Brembo, they are pricey and pad/rotor selection may be limited. For that reason, a good used Brembo setup off a Z33 or G35 seems to me to be the most cost-effective way to go.

When the 350Z track package first was announced, I was skeptical of spending the money on it. Now, after almost five years, I'm very glad I made that selection. With multiple track days--sometimes running almost every session--these brakes have proven their worth to me. Perhaps there are better deals out there (wilwood, etc.) that might fit, but for the money I think the OEM Brembos offer the biggest bang for the buck and are the easiest to install.

 

I'm very happy with my ST's, but as you said, they are pricey, and selection is limited. That said, to me, they were worth every penny this last NASA weekend.

My G is a bit heavier than the average G, which is a bit heavier than a Z. The TT kit, along with lots of audio gear and sound deadening make for a heavier car. I have not weighed it, so I don't know the exact weight, but it is heavier, and with the TT kit, gets up to higher speeds, thus putting a heavier load ont he brakes, as I found out at David M's PMI Z Day. This last weekend at NASA PMI day was completely different. I did not have any brake fade whatsoever, not even on the last lap of a 20 minute session.

Thus, I am completely satisified with my ST's. However, they might be a bit of overkill for you, depending on what you are looking for.

 

I'm more concerned with knockback issues. If there are any other things that have come up in your experience, then it would be nice to know. But the knockback on the front calipers seems to be an issue with the Stoptechs more than anything.
David, I've never pushed your car hard enough to find out, have you had any issues with the Brembo's needing a left foot tap going into a corner?
Will

 

Ok, define knockback for me, since it isn't ringing a bell...

 

Knockback is what happened to me on Sunday between 6a and 6b when I ran over the rumble strip - the bumps kicked back the pads and forced fluid back into the system. The alarming part was when the brake pedal went straight to the floor before the heavy braking zone at T7. So, I've heard of this type of thing happening while driving under normal track conditions but it's never happened to me until the rumble strip incident (I'm using Brembos).

Regarding Brembos... I'm very pleased with them - no fade; good bite with decent pads; pads are easy to change and last longer. I was able to find a second-hand for a very reasonable price. Keep an eye on the classifieds and you may score a set.

Joel

 

Knockback has never been a problem with the Brembos in my Z. I have experienced some fade, but only towards the end of a hard day's run.

 

Ah, ok. Havne't had that happen with my ST's, but they've only been on for two track days so far.

 

I had serious issues with knock back with the OEM Brembos at PMI. In my case it seemed to be linked to over whelming the front wheels. When ever I came into a corner too fast, the front tires gave up first and I ended up with massive understeer. Followed by a brief moment of panic, at the next braking zone, when the brake pedal would drop all of the way to the floor. Pumping the pedal once or twice restored the brakes back to their normal glory. That is until I until the next time I caused the car to understeer. Once I drove the car within the grip of its tires the problem went away.

As for brake pads, I would highly recommend the Cobalts. With brake pads you can have fade free performance, rotor friendly, and/or low dust / noise. Downside is you can only pick two of those traits. The Cobalts have proven to have reliable performance both cold and hot which is a rarity out of the pads I have tried. Plus they have been kind to my rotors. The only negative I can point out is that they are noisy during day to day driving and the dust up more than your typical OEM pad. That is a compromise I'm whiling to live with. On the other hand my girl friend complains every time she rides in the car. She says that all of the squealing makes it sound like the brakes are going out.

 

FWIW the guys who run SCCA T2 race on the OEM Brembos and do very well. I know several who are board members here including JasonH and Rob Hines.

 

Will - Either the Brembo or the Stoptech is a great choice, in my opinion. My thoughts, in no particular order:

- Brembo is undoubtedly less expensive, if you can find a good used set (market rate seems to be between $1700 & $2000, although the rotor and street pad condition will vary from one set to the next, obviously)

- You're right that replacement rotors are less expensive for the Brembos (unless you buy Stoptech's 2-piece replacement for the Brembo kit, in which case you'd find yourself in the same situation as if you'd bought the Stoptech BBK)

- I would say that pad selection is about equal for both, with a slight edge to Stoptech. Their ST-40 caliper uses the same shape pad as an early-mid 90's Porsche (993, I think), which of course has a TON of pad options out there for it. However, for any given compound that is available for both the Brembos and the Stoptechs, it will usually be cheaper for the Brembos. For example, the PFC01 is $305 for the Stoptech, but only $234 for the Brembo from zeckhausen.com. Of course, you might get a larger/wider pad with the Stoptech-sized pad, but that's still a pretty big price difference.

Also, the rear Stoptech caliper that you're looking at uses the same size/shape pad as the rear OEM Brembo, so there is absolutely no pad selection or price difference there.

- We've talked about the knockback issue before, and you know that I don't like it at all. That being said, I no longer experience it at the track as much as I used to, and once you realize what it is and where you experience it (only after left-right combinations between braking zones), it's much easier to deal with. And to be honest, I mostly felt it at Second Creek, where the large number of connected left-right combinations between braking zones made it very noticable. I don't notice it at all at PMI (unless getting on the rumble strips like Joel mentioned), and I only notice it at La Junta when braking for T6, after the right/left at 4 and 5 that happens between braking events. You're certainly right to consider this when purchasing, but I seem to remember feeling a touch of knockback even on David's car at Second Creek, when I had the opportunity to drive it out there.

That being said, I do notice some knockback even in street driving these days, but that might just be down to the fact that the seals/boots are over 3 years old and in dire need of replacement during an upcoming rebuild.

- I'm pretty sure that the OEM 17's will fit over the factory Brembos (in fact I know they will, as that's what Joel was running at the PMI NASA event), so hopefully you won't need new wheels, regardless of what you get (you didn't state this outright, but I wasn't sure if you were implying that you would need new wheels with the Brembos, or just clarifying that you KNEW you wouldn't need new ones with the Stoptechs)

- Support: Stoptech clearly wins here, although this is probably less of an issue for you, since you've probably forgotten more about brake system engineering than most professional brake developers have ever known.

- IMO, it comes down to price/performance. I don't want to make this sound like I'm bashing either one (although I don't feel bad if it sounds that way, since I've got Stoptechs up front and Brembos out back, so I can't be accused of being biased.)

The Brembos are clearly less expensive (original purchase, pad, and rotor). No question at all about that, and they're a fantastic package.

The Stoptechs are potentially a better performer when it comes to fade resistance (and maybe even caliper stiffness/pedal feel, although that's such a subjective thing to try to measure that's it's probably not worth evaluating). So the big question (knockback not withstanding,) IMO, is this: if you do fade the Brembos (which would really only happen once in a blue moon, and even then towards the end of the day), will you be willing to back down or end the day early, in exchange for all of the money that was saved on the price of the kit?

Here are my thoughts on fading the Brembos: David is CLEARLY not the norm when it comes to driving talent, and the fact that he's only faded the Brembos on rare occasions might just come down to driving skill. He doesn't even touch the brakes in some turns where I find myself getting on them, and when he does get on them, he's not on them for very long. Both of these factors lead to a cooler pad, and less fade. I've heard of other drivers around the country experiencing some fade on the Brembos with race pads, but without knowing them & their driving styles, it's tough to say. That being said, Joel didn't mention any fade problems at PMI last weekend, and he was lapping at an absurd rate (VERY close to the times that David was putting down in March).

Also, the fact that Dave's wicked-fast G35 TT felt absolutely no fade during an extremely hot weekend at PMI says volumes about the Stoptech's ability to withstand heat.

One last thought: In the past you've mentioned the AP kit as one that you were considering. Kevin G. has driven those at PMI, and might be able to give some feedback on that kit, if it's one that you're still considering.

There's no clear winner, but there's also no wrong choice, IMO. I don't know if this helps your decision or not, but I do know that whichever kit you choose you will be MUCH MUCH happier at a track day with a BBK on your car.

I'm hopping on a place to Brussels this afternoon and won't have much time to be online before I return next Thursday, so don't think I'm ignoring the rest of this thread if I don't post much more before then.

 

This is good info!!! Will have you thought about AP Racing?
David, Gary, etc... What are you're thoughts on AP Racing?

 

My take on AP Racing is this: the company makes a good product, they obviously know what they're doing, but support (at least in the US) for their consumer-level (i.e. non-top-level-pro-racing) product is hard to come by.

Considering the fact that Stillen is their primary distributor in the US, and the fact that I had a hard time just getting someone from Stillen on the phone who could properly pronounce the word 'caliper' back when I was looking at BBK options, yet I could call up Stoptech and talk directly to the engineers who designed the stuff, told me all I needed to know. YMMV.

Also, it seems to be much easier to find pads for the Brembos & Stoptechs than the AP stuff. I'm not bashing AP, as I think the company itself make a good product, but you asked for my thoughts, so there they are.

 

Rob: If you have to buy AP Racing brakes through Stillen, don't get them. If you can get them somewhere else, then they might be worth it; I don't know. What I do know is that Stillen is overpriced, and very poor with customer service. This comes from owning both my G, and a Z32TT for 6 years, and experiences with Stillen with both cars.

 

Not a problem. I wouldn't ask if I didn't think it wasn't worthy.
However, I have a contact in the UK for thier UK verison kit. UK kit is made of die cast aluminium (5-8lbs lighter/ caliper) vs the Stillen kits. This is one reason I'm thinking about going with them. However, StopTech is/was my #1 choice.

Dave90TT: Was the 4/2-pot 14" kit plenty at PMP on you're TTG? Reason I'm asking 1) I plan on the JWT kit as you know 2) Wouldn't mind saving the little bit of money from the 6/4-pot kit.

Too many good choices.

 

More than plenty! No fade at all, even with temps running in the mid 90's and 20 minute lap sessions. I was really hard on the brakes, too.

I was using racing pads; PFC-01 on the fronts, and Hawk DTC-60 on the rears. Wouldn't want to drive around in those normally, but you definitely need racing pads for the track. They are kind of pricey, but there was very little wear on them after the weekend, so they will last quite a while.

I ditched the Axxis Ultimates the ST kit comes with, because they required rebedding about every week or so, or else the squeal would be terrible. I went with Axxis Deluxe for normal day to day driving, and am quite happy with those as well.

 

Good thread here and I'm thinking there's not much I can really add. I agree with the thoughts about AP Racing- well-engineeed product with plenty of race development behind them. The downside is price- not only the initial investment, but the cost of replacement parts down the road.

 

Gary is correct - stock 17" wheels fit over Brembos without issue. It's essentially a Track model Z set up.

I'll add one more thought. No matter which BBK you choose, you'll undoubtedly enjoy the increase in performance versus the stock brakes. Forget about the technical aspects for a moment and consider the driver confidence a BBK will instill in you. Although any form of knock back during *normal* track driving will immediately destroy that confidence. I would prefer using equipment that builds confidence.

Joel

** normal track driving = keeping the car on the asphalt and away form the rumble strips

 

Thank you all very much for your advice in reply to my question. This really is a great bunch of Z owners we have here in Colorado so willing to help each other out.

Joel and Gary pretty much covered it. There is a certain amount of deflection that can occur between the rotor and the Caliper, since the rotor is attached to the hub and the caliper fixed to the knuckle. It is caused when the tire is turned and experiences a lateral force that the knuckle is forced to resist, such as in a hard turn. It takes a lot of relative force occuring between the tire loading and knuckle to cause deflection, so this condition is predominantly seen when R-compound tires are in use. The wider and stickier the tire, the more lateral force may be carried at the contact patch, and the more prone the issue of rotor deflection will be. This deflection pushes the pistons back into the caliper so that the pad is no longer pre-loaded against the rotor surface.
Naturally, this means when you enter a braking zone and push the brake pedal nothing happens because all you did was push the pads back into position. The next application of the brake pedal results in normal braking. This phenom results in what is known as a "left foot tap" before going into the braking zone, where the driver will **lightly** tap the brake pedal with the left foot to set the pads back into their staged position. Then when the driver enters the braking zone, he can brake with his right foot as normal; knowing the pads are loaded against the rotor and ready to do their job.
Fixed calipers are prone to have this issue, while floating calipers do not. The problem of rotor deflection relative to the knuckle can be solved with a stronger hub that features a sturdier bearing design, and a stiffer knuckle design. The Z33 has neither option available, so caliper construction and placement is important. The fact that the Brembo's mount directly to the knuckle without the use of a seperate mounting bracket gives it a marginal (if in theory only) advantage in this issue.
Rotor diameter has an effect, where the larger diameter rotor will have more lateral displacement under deflection, due to an effectively longer lever acting on the pistons as seen from the rotor centerline. The Brembo's have a slight advantage again in this area, as they are a few millimeters smaller in diameter.
Finally, springs may be installed in the caliper body to push the pistons into place. Antiknockback springs are usually around 2-6 lbs/in and fit inside the piston bores. This will make certain the pads are always pre-loaded against the rotor face. The downside is that your rotor will not be able to push the pads away from the rotor face as normal, so there will always be drag occuring. If the springs are too high a rate, they can exert too much pressure on the rotor face and heat the pads- leading to early wear or fade issues. And it can just sound really, really annoying as they scrape against the rotor all the time. On a plus side, in a rain race, the springs will help keep the rotor dry by keeping the pad against the face throughout the race.

That's what I was hoping to hear. I am not worried about fade, really. The GA Cup guys use the Brembo's and they can go a good number of laps more than I plan on doing at one time. I don't think you're running a two-piece rotor either, so if you barely have any fade issues, and I know I won't be running laps as long as you do, then I'm not too concerned with fade. The Brembo's are already a huge step above what I have now.

Good to hear. I'm looking at a used set right now for around 2k.

Another reason I was considering the Brembos from a Track model over a bbk. Both of those drivers are very good and have done well with them and very little negative feedback on the Brembo's. Really thought Rob was going to win last year after he took pole.

This is the very issue I have with ST right now. I don't know why, but the majority of people who experiences knock-back seem to be using ST. Their caliper design looks to be a very good, mono-block design. I don't know bout their seal construction or mounting bracket material, but I would be surprised by any deficiencies. I think maybe the majority of people actually driving the car hard enough to see knock-back just use ST, so that's why you don't hear about it with other bbk's?

This is my thinking exactly, so thank you. I am glad to hear the Brembo's will work with my 17" wheels. I wasn't sure why they wouldn't since they are a hair smaller than the ST 13" kit, but I thought maybe the ST mounting bracket placed the caliper more inboard over the Brembo, clearing the wheel.

StopTech has excellent service. I almost want to buy their kits just for that reason. As far as what I know.. whatever, LOL. I only regurgitate information I learn from guys like them.

The fade issue seems pretty minor. I actually like the wider rotors that ST includes rather than the larger diameter. They would have the edge in fade resistance, though. It is a tough call in terms of fade, because I really don't see how I would possibly fade the Brembo's, much less the ST kit, with the limited lapping I do. Even with SCCA TT, it's only a 20 or 30 min solid session of hot-lapping. With race pads and two-piece rotors, I question the ability to really over-heat what can hold up during a solid two hour GA Cup race. But, I hear people attest to the fade occuring with both options. This is where the extra peace of mind of the larger ST kit is such an attraction.

Oh, I wish I was good enough to know I'll stay away from PMI's rumble strips!

Will

 

Gary and Dave both summed it up:
1.Great company heritage. I mean, they make water-cooled calipers for GT500 cars! They're an F1 supplier!
2.Great engineering for sure, I mean, they're freaking AP Racing!
3.But, crappy customer service stateside.
4.Stillen is the main distributer, and they have crappy technical service.
5.And, who really knows the quality of this kit compared to their other kits sold overseas for the Z33? You can't take AP Racing's word for it because of point #3.

And my personal issue is that they are too big for what I need. Huge rotors and calipers look cool, and the AP Racing logo would be sweet to sport, but I don't need the unsprung mass they come with. I want the smallest brakes that will do the job, not the largest brakes that sport the coolest name in brakes. So, I have ruled them out.

It's either the smaller ST kit or a used set of Track model Brembos.

Will