Any current TS reflash experiences?????
04-27-2005, 02:37 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by sentry65
IMO, I think if you are pushing close to 300whp NA the TS or AAM flash will help - it'll get your A/F better and better timing maps, but the emissions regulations side of it will still detect the car is beyond the safe emissions zone and pull power and fuel to lean you out.
For a few bolt ons, it's probably ok with the flash, but I think with a lot of bolt ons the TS and AAM fuel maps will be fighting against the emissions regulator.
an EMS I think is the only real true way to bypass all that crap and grab the ECU by the *****. Or find a way to fool the sensors that feed the emissions controls - like the cat bung spacers people with test pipes have been using to avoid throwing a CEL
For a few bolt ons, it's probably ok with the flash, but I think with a lot of bolt ons the TS and AAM fuel maps will be fighting against the emissions regulator.
an EMS I think is the only real true way to bypass all that crap and grab the ECU by the *****. Or find a way to fool the sensors that feed the emissions controls - like the cat bung spacers people with test pipes have been using to avoid throwing a CEL
04-27-2005, 03:14 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by sentry65
This is all my theory:
My car drives much better every time I reset the ECU because you're resetting the emissions info.
And actually, I might be wrong on this point, but the TS reset procedure is one part of reset procedure. The real full procedure is in the service manual. Then you also do the TS reset procedure. I haven't had my SES go on for 4 car restarts whereas it usually is 2 and the light pops back on when I only use the TS reset procedure by itself
every time my SES light goes on my car drives like crap. It chugs, it's shakey, it stalls easier, I lose about 10whp, and run leaner etc
My car drives much better every time I reset the ECU because you're resetting the emissions info.
And actually, I might be wrong on this point, but the TS reset procedure is one part of reset procedure. The real full procedure is in the service manual. Then you also do the TS reset procedure. I haven't had my SES go on for 4 car restarts whereas it usually is 2 and the light pops back on when I only use the TS reset procedure by itself
every time my SES light goes on my car drives like crap. It chugs, it's shakey, it stalls easier, I lose about 10whp, and run leaner etc
I'm having the same problem at 6200rpms after my reflash, timing goes to high and monster pinging on crappy 91 gas and goes into a lower timing profile, chugs and it's shakey. I can get it back to normal two ways, drive under 6200 for a little while and let it normalize my timing profile, or reset the ECU. Some high octane blended in and I can't keep the wheels from spinning in the first 4 gears. Got a copy of you last dyno? Check the link in my sig for my dyno chart and you'll see where the KR happens.
ECU going leaner has to do with closed loop, changes your AF based on a narrowband reading from the MAF.
Last edited by zxsaint; 04-27-2005 at 03:17 PM.
04-27-2005, 03:51 PM
#23
so to help prevent my engine from knocking, the ECU decided to lean out my A/F even more? who the hell designed this ECU?
I made the same power on both runs, but the 2nd was 1 or 2 bars worse in A/F. If it was retarding the timing, it didn't have any effect on reducing power output...
The ECU was reset before dynoing. I didn't hear any knocking and was standing right next to it
I made the same power on both runs, but the 2nd was 1 or 2 bars worse in A/F. If it was retarding the timing, it didn't have any effect on reducing power output...
The ECU was reset before dynoing. I didn't hear any knocking and was standing right next to it
Last edited by sentry65; 04-27-2005 at 04:16 PM.
04-27-2005, 04:27 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by sentry65
The ECU was reset before dynoing. I didn't hear any knocking
Normal (what you get after a reset, smooth deep exhaust note),
Safe mode(chug/chug/chug w/ vibration + raspy)
Limp mode(I think i've heard it won't go over 4k rpm)
I've seen/heard of practically stock Z's pinging on crappy 91 (bad gas). IMHO this car was tuned from the factory for 92-93 octane but runs decent on good 91 gas.
Last edited by zxsaint; 04-27-2005 at 04:32 PM.
04-27-2005, 06:46 PM
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So here is my last question (I swear), if you reset the ECU will you lose the reflash...if Nissan so sees it fit to reflash the ECU for warranty work, will I have to shell out another $150?
PS: It'd be nice if a representitive from TS or AAM could respond to this thread to dispel rumors...
PS: It'd be nice if a representitive from TS or AAM could respond to this thread to dispel rumors...
04-27-2005, 09:11 PM
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Ok... so the ECU pulls timing because of the use of inferior gas. So the use of a high quality 93 or 100 octane gas will clear that right up? I have always wondered, we have 110 octane at the pump here (Sunoco), can TS have a "switch" for when I want to run a "110 Oct Map" so I can gain alot more HP and then one for daily driver "93 Oct Map"? I've heard of this for Dodge's MOPAR setup with Dial-a-Boost. Can NA cars switch maps for more power?
04-27-2005, 11:24 PM
#31
the only control you have with an NA car's timing maps after you get a flash is to reset the ECU
if you have a standalone EMS you can select a different map
find out if that 110 octane is leaded or not. Don't use it if it's leaded.
There's a chance even with a flashed ECU, that the ECU won't know what to do with 110
if you have a standalone EMS you can select a different map
find out if that 110 octane is leaded or not. Don't use it if it's leaded.
There's a chance even with a flashed ECU, that the ECU won't know what to do with 110
04-28-2005, 02:36 AM
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For anybody who is interested I just had the TS limited flash since I have the Vortech and I feel like it pulls much better. Way worth the $315. I recomend it for anubody wondering. Now can't wait to get the new Kinetex manifold in the mail!
04-28-2005, 08:26 AM
#35
here's what I think happens with our ECU
you put a ton of power adders on and get a flash and get your A/F balanced
The emissions part of the ECU senses you're using more gas than the specified range from the factory.
So it cuts fuel.
If it detects knocking, then it'll retard timing or drop to a lower timing map and keep the fuel cut the same amount
If it doesn't detect knocking, then it decides to either leave the fuel as is or it might even decide to cut even MORE fuel
it'll do this until it detects knocking
when it does detect knocking and pulls timing, it'll keep repeating the process until it can't go any further because cutting more fuel leads to knocking and it can only pull timing so far.
It does this over a period of time and is always 1 step behind your current driving situation.
If you do 6 or more WOT to redline runs, it'll start adding more fuel and timing, but it doesn't want to keep it there. It's developing a log of data.
So in part this explains why when you WOT to redline a lot (drive hard) and do nothing but drive hard, your Z will pull really hard. But if you cruise on the highway a lot, it isn't so powerful feeling.
In the long run, the ECU ultimately is concerned with emissions. It isn't an intelligent piece of hardware. It's just a bunch of programmed variables of "if, then" statements. I don't think it has the capability of actually "talking" to the different parts of it.
The emissions part of the ECU is the Z's greatest hurdle and is choking everything else about it - even the custom mappings by TS and AAM even though those mappings are just doing their job.
Gradually over time, the ECU will do what it can to get good gas mileage - it's concerned with that because it's good for emissions. It figures if it can make the engine run really lean and with no knocking, then everything is happy - even though the safety of the engine is in question. The designers probably felt with the stock engine, it can handle being a little too lean. But major bolt ons or FI won't handle a lean engine.
Also, I think the ECU was designed for 92-93 octane since that's what they use in japan. I don't think the ECU actually KNOWS what type of gas you have or not. It only knows how much fuel is going into the engine and whether or not it's knocking. That's how it determines how to deal with what gas you're running.
It can maybe be tested by people with FI who had their car professionally tuned to perfection - to redyno their car after awhile without reseting the ECU and see if they're making more or less power and what their A/F is. This is assuming though that the car isn't driven hard all the time - so casual FI daily driven cars would be able to tell, not track cars. I think all the tuning work that goes into the Z, is in effect negated when the ECU decides it's going to try to improve your gas mileage/emissions.
so even with those O2 sensors in the cats with those extenders used to "trick" the ECU with thinking emissions is ok, the ECU will still sense more than normal amounts of gas are going into the engine and will first try cutting fuel.
Everyone may have been tuning their car to a changing variable, instead of a locked down mapping
From what I remember reading in SportZ magazine - i'll cross check it later tongiht, the Nissan race team's NA car makes 380 crank HP. They said they use a standalone EMS and redid the fuel system to handle that power. I know race teams are magical and do the impossible, but what's so impossible about them using an EMS and redone fuel system to get the absolute most out of their parts?
I know there's going to be a lot of naysayers, but I think an EMS is the key to the Z.
Resetting the ECU often is a cheap way to avoid the ECU from killing your performance and engine
I'm open to feedback, but don't think this is going to be easy to prove or disprove - TS and AAM probably along with nissan engineers might be the only one's who really know how the Z's ECU works
you put a ton of power adders on and get a flash and get your A/F balanced
The emissions part of the ECU senses you're using more gas than the specified range from the factory.
So it cuts fuel.
If it detects knocking, then it'll retard timing or drop to a lower timing map and keep the fuel cut the same amount
If it doesn't detect knocking, then it decides to either leave the fuel as is or it might even decide to cut even MORE fuel
it'll do this until it detects knocking
when it does detect knocking and pulls timing, it'll keep repeating the process until it can't go any further because cutting more fuel leads to knocking and it can only pull timing so far.
It does this over a period of time and is always 1 step behind your current driving situation.
If you do 6 or more WOT to redline runs, it'll start adding more fuel and timing, but it doesn't want to keep it there. It's developing a log of data.
So in part this explains why when you WOT to redline a lot (drive hard) and do nothing but drive hard, your Z will pull really hard. But if you cruise on the highway a lot, it isn't so powerful feeling.
In the long run, the ECU ultimately is concerned with emissions. It isn't an intelligent piece of hardware. It's just a bunch of programmed variables of "if, then" statements. I don't think it has the capability of actually "talking" to the different parts of it.
The emissions part of the ECU is the Z's greatest hurdle and is choking everything else about it - even the custom mappings by TS and AAM even though those mappings are just doing their job.
Gradually over time, the ECU will do what it can to get good gas mileage - it's concerned with that because it's good for emissions. It figures if it can make the engine run really lean and with no knocking, then everything is happy - even though the safety of the engine is in question. The designers probably felt with the stock engine, it can handle being a little too lean. But major bolt ons or FI won't handle a lean engine.
Also, I think the ECU was designed for 92-93 octane since that's what they use in japan. I don't think the ECU actually KNOWS what type of gas you have or not. It only knows how much fuel is going into the engine and whether or not it's knocking. That's how it determines how to deal with what gas you're running.
It can maybe be tested by people with FI who had their car professionally tuned to perfection - to redyno their car after awhile without reseting the ECU and see if they're making more or less power and what their A/F is. This is assuming though that the car isn't driven hard all the time - so casual FI daily driven cars would be able to tell, not track cars. I think all the tuning work that goes into the Z, is in effect negated when the ECU decides it's going to try to improve your gas mileage/emissions.
so even with those O2 sensors in the cats with those extenders used to "trick" the ECU with thinking emissions is ok, the ECU will still sense more than normal amounts of gas are going into the engine and will first try cutting fuel.
Everyone may have been tuning their car to a changing variable, instead of a locked down mapping
From what I remember reading in SportZ magazine - i'll cross check it later tongiht, the Nissan race team's NA car makes 380 crank HP. They said they use a standalone EMS and redid the fuel system to handle that power. I know race teams are magical and do the impossible, but what's so impossible about them using an EMS and redone fuel system to get the absolute most out of their parts?
I know there's going to be a lot of naysayers, but I think an EMS is the key to the Z.
Resetting the ECU often is a cheap way to avoid the ECU from killing your performance and engine
I'm open to feedback, but don't think this is going to be easy to prove or disprove - TS and AAM probably along with nissan engineers might be the only one's who really know how the Z's ECU works
Last edited by sentry65; 04-28-2005 at 08:47 AM.
04-28-2005, 09:42 AM
#36
also, consider this
the ECU has logs
a short term log and a long term log
it takes all the data in each log and averages it, but the data is still independent from each other
the ECU is always wanting to gradually start leaning towards the long term log
So if you buy a brand new Z with 0 miles on it and drive the crap out of it, the short term log and long term log will both have the same data and so the car will always feel really powerful and put out more power because that's all it has to go off of - that you drive hard and always have driven hard.
If you bought a used Z where grandma was driving it and you start driving hard. Its short term log will start showing you're driving really hard and the ECU will start giving you more power. But you cannot fight the power of a weak long term log. It will gradually try to go back to using the long term data unless you continue to redline it on a regular basis every time you drive it. So if you take the Z to the track on an otherwise conservativly driven Z, the ECU will start using the new short term data which shows you're driving the crap out of it, but when you're done, it'll gradually go back to the long term data because it's supposed to be more reliable.
An EMS would prevent this sort of behavior. YOU would tell the Z how to drive, and that's that.
So maybe there is some truth to when people say some Z's are dramatically faster than others, Maybe it isn't so much how the engine was broken in - though that probably comes into play to a degree, but otherwise maybe Z's are created more equal then we might think. If you were to remove the ECU's management, maybe you could get all stock Z's to dyno within 1-3whp of each other instead of the 1-20hp range on the same dyno with otherwise identical stock Z's
Resetting the ECU I think maybe wipes the short term data, but not long term, but I could be wrong on that
the ECU has logs
a short term log and a long term log
it takes all the data in each log and averages it, but the data is still independent from each other
the ECU is always wanting to gradually start leaning towards the long term log
So if you buy a brand new Z with 0 miles on it and drive the crap out of it, the short term log and long term log will both have the same data and so the car will always feel really powerful and put out more power because that's all it has to go off of - that you drive hard and always have driven hard.
If you bought a used Z where grandma was driving it and you start driving hard. Its short term log will start showing you're driving really hard and the ECU will start giving you more power. But you cannot fight the power of a weak long term log. It will gradually try to go back to using the long term data unless you continue to redline it on a regular basis every time you drive it. So if you take the Z to the track on an otherwise conservativly driven Z, the ECU will start using the new short term data which shows you're driving the crap out of it, but when you're done, it'll gradually go back to the long term data because it's supposed to be more reliable.
An EMS would prevent this sort of behavior. YOU would tell the Z how to drive, and that's that.
So maybe there is some truth to when people say some Z's are dramatically faster than others, Maybe it isn't so much how the engine was broken in - though that probably comes into play to a degree, but otherwise maybe Z's are created more equal then we might think. If you were to remove the ECU's management, maybe you could get all stock Z's to dyno within 1-3whp of each other instead of the 1-20hp range on the same dyno with otherwise identical stock Z's
Resetting the ECU I think maybe wipes the short term data, but not long term, but I could be wrong on that
Last edited by sentry65; 04-28-2005 at 09:49 AM.
04-28-2005, 09:51 AM
#38
no, with or without the flash you will have to keep resetting the ECU to get any sort of consistency out of it
If you get an EMS, you don't have to because you've isolated the variables and given it what you told it to and it'll never change unless you change it.
everyone should be familiar with this thread to cross reference what i'm saying
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....engineer+phone
just read the first post if you don't want to read the whole thing. It coincides exactly with what I've been saying.
TS and AAM will change the mappings, the rev limiter, an remove the speed governor, but they can't delete the 2 weaker timing mappings so the car only uses one, and they can't force the ECU to not try to self adjust so you get better gas mileage/emissions at the expense of power and engine health/safety
If you get an EMS, you don't have to because you've isolated the variables and given it what you told it to and it'll never change unless you change it.
everyone should be familiar with this thread to cross reference what i'm saying
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....engineer+phone
just read the first post if you don't want to read the whole thing. It coincides exactly with what I've been saying.
TS and AAM will change the mappings, the rev limiter, an remove the speed governor, but they can't delete the 2 weaker timing mappings so the car only uses one, and they can't force the ECU to not try to self adjust so you get better gas mileage/emissions at the expense of power and engine health/safety
Last edited by sentry65; 04-28-2005 at 09:59 AM.
04-28-2005, 10:01 AM
#40
there is one out right now called the HKS Fcon V Power
http://www.intensepower.com/hksfvenma35.html
and then you need the wire harness
http://www.intensepower.com/hksfvha35.html
install is usually around $300ish
then you need a day of tuning...
however, you can't buy it and have a shop put it on and tune. Only an authorized HKS dealer with knowledge of the tuning software can do it
CJ motorsports is another shop that works with the Fcon
http://www.cj-motorsports.com/product350z.htm
AEM is supposed to have really nice EMS's though. I've had them recommended to me by several shops that specialize in several cars. If you read up on it, it's a little more capable - not super dramatic, but still is. Only problem is when will they make it compatible with the Z? They may or may not have some bugs at first too
I've heard AEM has a universal EMS too that might work with the 350Z, but so far I haven't found anyone confident it will actually work or is compatible with drive by wire cars like the Z.
The other option is the Motec system and THAT's expensive. It's like 3-5x the price of the HKS. The Nissan NA race car uses that
the nissan engineer in that old thread said a stock Z can be tuned to about 320 crank hp. That seems entirely possible to me. Right now I'm running what would be the equivelent to around 345 crank hp. The nissan race team supposivly gets around 380ish. I think that's somewhat within reach for my Z with my mods to get up to that range if I redid the fuel system along with an EMS. In 2-3 months I'll report my findings when some money comes thru to me to add those parts to my car.
Don't a lot of FI kits have a way of fooling the MAF sensor voltage and how that gets to the ECU? Seems like I read that somewhere...
I'm pretty sure that my car keeps going into safe mode because the ECU can't seem to compensate for my setup being too drasticly changed over stock settings. Whenever I reset my ECU (which is often) my car drives great and feels fine. As soon as the SES light comes on though, it turns to crap. It does this regardless of what gas I use - 91octane, 101 octane, 103 octane....
here's my list of stuff I'm going to try:
normal heat range spark plugs instead of 1 step colder
HKS ignition amplifier
HKS Fcon Vpro EMS
RC 550 injectors
CJ motorsports fuel return system
walbro fuel pump
CJ motorsports shielded crank and cam sensor wires
O2 sensor extenders in the cats
Sun Hyper Voltage GT - Hot Inazma Hyper System
a new battery - haven't really decided between optima or Hawker Oddysey yet
that's a lot of crap I'm going to throw at it, and some of it probably has 0 effect on doing anything, but I'm going to do it all anyway.
It's even possible my tilton clutch or UR crank pulley are causing or contributing to this with how much NA stuff I have. Maybe if I took them off or took off some of my other parts the ECU could deal with my setup, but I'mnot taking anything off until I determine it isn't the ECU causing my trouble
How can my car be adjusting to the MAF in closed loop mode at WOT? It only adjusts in open loop mode right? The car wasn't turned off between runs so it got to sit in idle for 1-2 min. Other than the putting the gas partly on when going up the gears, it was in idle and WOT.
I should have just started a new thread on all of this stuff...
http://www.intensepower.com/hksfvenma35.html
and then you need the wire harness
http://www.intensepower.com/hksfvha35.html
install is usually around $300ish
then you need a day of tuning...
however, you can't buy it and have a shop put it on and tune. Only an authorized HKS dealer with knowledge of the tuning software can do it
CJ motorsports is another shop that works with the Fcon
http://www.cj-motorsports.com/product350z.htm
AEM is supposed to have really nice EMS's though. I've had them recommended to me by several shops that specialize in several cars. If you read up on it, it's a little more capable - not super dramatic, but still is. Only problem is when will they make it compatible with the Z? They may or may not have some bugs at first too
I've heard AEM has a universal EMS too that might work with the 350Z, but so far I haven't found anyone confident it will actually work or is compatible with drive by wire cars like the Z.
The other option is the Motec system and THAT's expensive. It's like 3-5x the price of the HKS. The Nissan NA race car uses that
the nissan engineer in that old thread said a stock Z can be tuned to about 320 crank hp. That seems entirely possible to me. Right now I'm running what would be the equivelent to around 345 crank hp. The nissan race team supposivly gets around 380ish. I think that's somewhat within reach for my Z with my mods to get up to that range if I redid the fuel system along with an EMS. In 2-3 months I'll report my findings when some money comes thru to me to add those parts to my car.
Don't a lot of FI kits have a way of fooling the MAF sensor voltage and how that gets to the ECU? Seems like I read that somewhere...
I'm pretty sure that my car keeps going into safe mode because the ECU can't seem to compensate for my setup being too drasticly changed over stock settings. Whenever I reset my ECU (which is often) my car drives great and feels fine. As soon as the SES light comes on though, it turns to crap. It does this regardless of what gas I use - 91octane, 101 octane, 103 octane....
here's my list of stuff I'm going to try:
normal heat range spark plugs instead of 1 step colder
HKS ignition amplifier
HKS Fcon Vpro EMS
RC 550 injectors
CJ motorsports fuel return system
walbro fuel pump
CJ motorsports shielded crank and cam sensor wires
O2 sensor extenders in the cats
Sun Hyper Voltage GT - Hot Inazma Hyper System
a new battery - haven't really decided between optima or Hawker Oddysey yet
that's a lot of crap I'm going to throw at it, and some of it probably has 0 effect on doing anything, but I'm going to do it all anyway.
It's even possible my tilton clutch or UR crank pulley are causing or contributing to this with how much NA stuff I have. Maybe if I took them off or took off some of my other parts the ECU could deal with my setup, but I'mnot taking anything off until I determine it isn't the ECU causing my trouble
How can my car be adjusting to the MAF in closed loop mode at WOT? It only adjusts in open loop mode right? The car wasn't turned off between runs so it got to sit in idle for 1-2 min. Other than the putting the gas partly on when going up the gears, it was in idle and WOT.
I should have just started a new thread on all of this stuff...
Last edited by sentry65; 04-28-2005 at 10:58 AM.