Jeff92se

iTrader: (4)

Has Cobb let shops that have your tunable hardware do real time dyno tuning yet?

Dave @ COBB

We have not released the tuning software to shops yet. Not even in beta form.

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

I would love to know this as well. With 93 octane we should be able to bump up the timing and make more power. COBB, please comment.

Thermal1

iTrader: (23)

I know with some tuning solutions the factory ECU will just learn itself back to stock tune. The Cobb AP doesn't do that does it?

Dave @ COBB

Last I heard, we were going to make a 93 octane map. But it doesn't really do much for you so the priority isn't super high.

As for learning back to stock, no it will not with the AP. Because we alter what it is trying to learn back to. That is the advantage of a full reflash.

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

Wouldn't 93 octane plus a timing bump of two degrees make a difference? You would have to think so....... the AP can bump 2* can't it?
You say "it wouldn't do much for you"..... isn't it worth trying? Just a simple programming fix to gain more power? Seems like a no brainer

Dave @ COBB

It will be done. And yes, we can bump it by 2 degrees. But say it makes a 1 HP difference (likely) that could be just from the dyno getting warm or something. But we will see what in reality it does. And then we will release that map. Not sure what the schedule is for it. But I have been told it is being worked on.

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

Glad to hear that it's being tested.
Higher octane plus higher timing on a 4 cylinder civic making 90whp makes a difference, so I'm sure it would here.

It wouldn't be tough to use the exact same map (I believe the 2nd map you've developed currently) and use the exact same settings, and change nothing but the octane fuel and up the timing two degrees. Can independent owners/users of the AP currently change their own timing? Or is it a "map" or a specific download? What about idle rpm? I would figure they would be able to be independently changed aside/on top of a downloaded map. ?
Thanks!

Dave @ COBB

I believe we can change the cam timing +/-3 degrees or so. But ignition timing I think is determined by the tune. When I go out tonight I'll try to remember to plug in my AP and see. Unless the AP engineers have it again. I can never keep track of it

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

How did it go?

Also, please answer:
While it's nice that you all at COBB can change these things, it would be much nicer if the end users could as well.

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

One more question about this......
Your current maps are not for 93....so what will running 93 do with the current map?
TIA

Dave @ COBB

Running 93 on the current maps will not have any ill effects. You just don't get the full benefit of having the better gas.

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

It also all depends how aggressive and adaptive factory tuning is. The ECU constantly adjusts the timing based on learned behavior, listens for knock and advances the timing up to certain point. If that capability is pretty good from factory, 'adding' 2 extra degrees will not yield gains because the ECU will learn to advance it by itself without any changes. That's why people with 93 may already be getting the full benefit. Adding and removing timing is a lot more complicated than just saying: hey, do 2 more degrees all the time. The timing map is usually a 3D map which means RPMs, load and the degrees of advancement. It constantly changes as the conditions change. From what Cobb said, sounds like the factory map is already pretty well optimized.

Comparing 1 car to another is really not the same. The programming is different on them and so the behavior will be as well. Heck, most of the time, same car from 2 different model years can have different revs of the ECU ROM

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

Of course cars are different.

If the above were true, why would there even be an option to raise the timing?
Although the ECU could adjust to certain things, you'd have to believe that doing a general timing raise would effect everything that trickled down from there, namely every adjustment that the car would naturally make. I definitely see your point, but why just sit back and watch when you can provide input and possible ways to yield more power, and possibly for COBB, to be able to advertise more of a power gain.

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

I completely understand your point. Having more control is almost always better. Given the choices of having the option to bump timing or not, I would much rather have that ability.

I keep seeing this 2 degree timing bump reference come up in discussions. Where does this adjustment take effect? I can't image that the entire map gets the 2 degree adjustment. That will most certainly not be the right thing to do. Anybody know the details on this adjustment? Is it only OL? Is it governed by thresholds like load or IAT?

From experience with Cobb maps, and rightfully so, the OTS (off the shelf) maps will be conservative. That means that if you have a UTEC, you will probably see more gains since you will have a custom tune developed for your car, at your location, with your gas. I just want to get this out in the open and help set the expectations. OTS maps are designed to wide range of locations and gas variants so a lot of times, the guys at Cobb have to set the parameters accordingly to accommodate various conditions. With AP, you trade some performance for convenience. I think that is a given and if you're considering purchasing one, you have to accept this fast. Will it be 20whp difference? No. But if you're looking for last ounce of performance from your tune, AP alone will not be your solution. StreetTuner was created for that, and if one day it becomes available for the Z, that will change the game considerably. I have owned an AP in the past on my WRX and it is a fantastic device. You plug it in, you flash, you drive. Done.

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

Once again we are on the same page. I noticed from dyno charts and comparisons that the 350Z COBB maps keep the A/F well over 13 when the Z could easily go with ~12.7. It was easy to see that the map was not that aggressive.
That being said, the AP should be tons more competent than a normal reflash. You seem to dumb it down simply because of age-old terms like "OTS" "trade some performance for convenience" and "various conditions"
While this is definitely the case currently, the soft and hardware for the AP is certainly quality enough with a high ceiling to be able to take on many of the things that I have brought up, and others. I'd just like to get the end user the best, most comprehensive 'access' possible
Thanks for the banter!!!

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

Indeed. I am curious how you see the AP software and hardware making a difference in this case as opposed to factory ECU. AP is just a delivery device for stock ECU ROM. I am guessing here but the functionality inside the ROM remains mainly stock. That means that the logic is probably the same, but the map values have been changed. It's MUCH easier to alter the maps then it is to actually reprogram the ECU logic. So, I am willing to guess and if I were a gambling man, I'd probably put money on it, that the flashes are 'stuck' with the same logic. That's why I was drawing the parallel between the factory ROM and the reflash. I could be taking away the credit from Cobb but I doubt they have recompiled the ROM altogether for rev1. That would not make sense from business stand point. Consider what it would take to reprogram the ECU logic. You'd need a disassembler for that microprocessor, you'd have to hire a skilled assembly programmer that is familiar with the micro architecture and have the compiler to rebuild the ROM. Oh, and that programmer must certainly know the automotive technology in order to do the right thing. And then there's the testing phase. A whole different game. Do you see what I mean? I am not implying that you don't know the scope of what that takes but I think a lot of people don't have the in-depth knowledge of how these ECU programs work and what is involved. Maps are just a subset of the ECU. The compiled code inside it is what drives the maps.

I appreciate the discussion. I'd love to hear Cobb chime in and shed some light on what the initial offering will be, as technical as they can get obviously. I understand they can't tell us all of the info but a little peek would be nice

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

I'm not sure what it means one way or another, but users are reporting that the "flash" takes about 10 minutes when the AP is plugged in. That seems a little long to me for some reason. Just another talking point

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

And that is a good point actually. 10 minutes is a long time to wait for the flash to be over. Depending on how much data has to be pushed, it may take a while. Most of the time, writing speed is limited by the platform, in this case, the protocol used for sending the data across the wire. The AP can probably send things much faster than the ECU can handle but the speed will only be as fast as its slowest component. That is probably why it takes so long, especially the first time. Z is a CAN based car and and like with any other bus, it operates at certain frequency. So, that means that you have only so many cycles in a given time, like a second. If you have more cycles, you can do more in that time. But if the frequency is low, well, go get a coffe while you wait It's analogous to logging sampling that we see on ODB2. You can only push or pull so much at any given time. The initial write probably blast the entire image on the ECU. All subsequent images probably do the delta which is why updating your maps after takes seconds, not minutes. My WRX AP used to be this way. The first flash took 15 minutes Scary 15 minutes considering that if something goes wrong, your ECU will probably be foo bared. After that, it was pretty fast as the subsequent flashes only did the deltas based on what was already on the ECU. It's hard to judge based on time hwo much data is being pushed. If you're on dial up, a small 100K image will take fffoooorrreeevveeeeerrrrr. If you got FIOS, well, you don't use 100K images I guess truth is in the pudding.

Fluid1

iTrader: (19)

Agreed.

All that being said, I believe that the current function of the AP on a 350Z is all or nothing....meaning that when you download the first flash, you have to download your OEM settings back if you want to try a different flash/setting. So basically everyone is stick with 10 minutes no matter what is being added/removed.
Currently.