replicas or lookalikes
09-23-2009, 04:32 PM
#41
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LOL at most people missing the actual point. All this yammering on about quality is ridiculous. Of course Rota makes a decent wheel, no one should deny it. They pass spec, and for daily use and even some track use they are great I'm sure. They have a pretty solid reputation from owners and other users. All in all, there should be very little to argue about quality, other than in absolute terms they are NOT EQUAL to what other true forged companies offer. This crap about diminishing returns is personal to each person and their budget.
The issue is that they copy every design they make and do it shamelessly as if they did their own R&D and artistic concept. It takes nothing but good customer service and a decent product to make a reputable wheel. But it takes effort and risk to make a new design and Rota avoids this at all cost.
THEY HAVE NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL DESIGN, not one. It's about being a leech on an industry. It's about having some decency to have the ***** to create a unique product, nothing more. Their business model encourages other companies to skip the cost of making their own designs and doing their own R&D in favor of copying existing things at a lesser absolute build quality so people can pretend to have what they can't afford. This disincentivizes innovation and drive to produce the new and exciting design.
I don't know about all you engineers, but I'm certain you'd be pissed if you came up with a unique machine/product/idea only to have some reverse engineer it, copy it, and sell it for less...that is the issue. Notice how Dan/Wheeldude has nothing to say about that aspect other than point out that every company might have a one or a few wheels they have copied so it's obviously ok do so for Rota/Linea/every other replica he peddles.
But please, do go on about how they are good wheels...
The issue is that they copy every design they make and do it shamelessly as if they did their own R&D and artistic concept. It takes nothing but good customer service and a decent product to make a reputable wheel. But it takes effort and risk to make a new design and Rota avoids this at all cost.
THEY HAVE NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL DESIGN, not one. It's about being a leech on an industry. It's about having some decency to have the ***** to create a unique product, nothing more. Their business model encourages other companies to skip the cost of making their own designs and doing their own R&D in favor of copying existing things at a lesser absolute build quality so people can pretend to have what they can't afford. This disincentivizes innovation and drive to produce the new and exciting design.
I don't know about all you engineers, but I'm certain you'd be pissed if you came up with a unique machine/product/idea only to have some reverse engineer it, copy it, and sell it for less...that is the issue. Notice how Dan/Wheeldude has nothing to say about that aspect other than point out that every company might have a one or a few wheels they have copied so it's obviously ok do so for Rota/Linea/every other replica he peddles.
But please, do go on about how they are good wheels...
Last edited by stradaONE8; 09-23-2009 at 04:37 PM.
09-23-2009, 06:48 PM
#43
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The point of the cart was to show the differences in materials and the processes used. It is very relevant, people talk of diminishing returns... But fail to notice that 3 times the price nets you more then three times the strength (while being lighter) . Now if your application and use justifies the added expense to take full advantage of the differences is another thing entirely.
09-23-2009, 07:06 PM
#44
i'm an Electrical Engineer, i'm not supposed to know what it means.. but i know what it's saying.
if its true that Rotas are made from A356.2
for those that actually read it:
given the same T6 heat treatment for both alloys,
a) it takes only 30kpsi before it fractures, while 6061 is 33% stronger at 45
b) it is half as weak as 6061, as it only takes HALF amount of pressure before permanent deformation is done.
i'd be curious what the impact forces in kpsi would be for a hard hit to a pothole...
09-24-2009, 03:52 AM
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The point of the cart was to show the differences in materials and the processes used. It is very relevant, people talk of diminishing returns... But fail to notice that 3 times the price nets you more then three times the strength (while being lighter) . Now if your application and use justifies the added expense to take full advantage of the differences is another thing entirely.
The following is not in reference to bkultra's post:
Going to the whole intellectual property stuff. Do those folks who are spouting this off actually work in industry? Having other companies copy, reverse engineer (hold that thought), etc is life in the big city. Happens all the time in every industry.
Those citing "reverse engineering" are also saying out of the other side of their mouth that the materials and processes are different making one wheel better than the other. If the materials and processes are different, then "reverse engineering is not occuring. The design may be being copied but not the engineering.
* They are not likely 3x the strength. The numbers don't bare that out. I think you may have read that forged AL is 300% stronger than cast AL. That statement is based upon a like piece to piece comparison. Since the forged wheels are made from 2 or 3 pieces and the cast is one piece, there is no direct comparison on the complete wheel level. So what impact does the joining of the pieces have on the overall wheel intergrity? It could be you are paying 3x for a less than 3x increase in strenth
Last edited by bomber; 09-24-2009 at 09:59 AM.
09-24-2009, 03:57 AM
#48
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i'm an Electrical Engineer, i'm not supposed to know what it means.. but i know what it's saying.
if its true that Rotas are made from A356.2
for those that actually read it:
given the same T6 heat treatment for both alloys,
a) it takes only 30kpsi before it fractures, while 6061 is 33% stronger at 45
b) it is half as weak as 6061, as it only takes HALF amount of pressure before permanent deformation is done.
i'd be curious what the impact forces in kpsi would be for a hard hit to a pothole...
if its true that Rotas are made from A356.2
for those that actually read it:
given the same T6 heat treatment for both alloys,
a) it takes only 30kpsi before it fractures, while 6061 is 33% stronger at 45
b) it is half as weak as 6061, as it only takes HALF amount of pressure before permanent deformation is done.
i'd be curious what the impact forces in kpsi would be for a hard hit to a pothole...
In "B" above I think you ment to say "it is half as strong as 6061" rather than "half as weak" but we'll cut you some slack since you're an EE
That's pretty funny.
09-24-2009, 09:48 AM
#52
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You also also talk about reverse engineering, yet I never once used the term??? I am more of a physics/materials science guy then an engineer so I would not use that term.
Because the differences in the alloys and those that come from forging vs casting, you will see very large differences in strength. Cast wheels will crack before they bend (Strength vs Toughness). I agree most do not need forged wheels but there is still no denying that you do get what you pay for.... If you want the strongest/lightest wheel you will have to pay for it, if you only care about the aesthetics then a cast wheel will do just fine.
Last edited by bkultra; 09-24-2009 at 09:50 AM.
09-24-2009, 10:29 AM
#53
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I did state that Most forged wheels are made from 2 or 3 pieces, but this is not always the case (Rota Grid vs Volk TE37)... both are 1 piece wheels
You also also talk about reverse engineering, yet I never once used the term??? I am more of a physics/materials science guy then an engineer so I would not use that term.
Because the differences in the alloys and those that come from forging vs casting, you will see very large differences in strength. Cast wheels will crack before they bend (Strength vs Toughness). I agree most do not need forged wheels but there is still no denying that you do get what you pay for.... If you want the strongest/lightest wheel you will have to pay for it, if you only care about the aesthetics then a cast wheel will do just fine.
You also also talk about reverse engineering, yet I never once used the term??? I am more of a physics/materials science guy then an engineer so I would not use that term.
Because the differences in the alloys and those that come from forging vs casting, you will see very large differences in strength. Cast wheels will crack before they bend (Strength vs Toughness). I agree most do not need forged wheels but there is still no denying that you do get what you pay for.... If you want the strongest/lightest wheel you will have to pay for it, if you only care about the aesthetics then a cast wheel will do just fine.
Sorry for the confusion. Most of my post was not in reference to anything you said. As I indicated in the first sentence much of what you and I said is on complete agreement. I edited my post to make this more clear.
I do agree with most of what you said above but not all. As a materials guy you know that toughness is the area under the stress/strain curve and forged materials generally have greater toughness due to a higher UTS and ductility. Forging isn't without issues though. You can end up with residual stresses and sub surface cracks caused by secondary shear forces.
Where I don't agree and I will be happy to agree to disagree is that you don't always get what you pay for. To say so neglects the marketing and gross margin requirements a company has. Price is set by people in Marketing and is not always based upon material content and added value. If that were so, Nike shoes shouldn't cost more than $50.
I care about more than aethestics and yet I decided to by a Rota wheel. For me, I don't need the "extra" strength that some here have convinced themselves they need. If we should always buy the strongest, lightest and fastest, why do we have "Z's" and not a supercars?
Last edited by bomber; 09-24-2009 at 10:33 AM.
09-24-2009, 10:34 AM
#54
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Wait the "Z" is not a super car?.....
I do see what you are saying, we agree on the science but disagree on the subjective part "value".
Edit: Do you happen to have a copy of "Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers " handy... I know that the shear stress of 6061 T6 is 30000psi but I can not find the stat for A356.2 T6
I do see what you are saying, we agree on the science but disagree on the subjective part "value".
Edit: Do you happen to have a copy of "Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers " handy... I know that the shear stress of 6061 T6 is 30000psi but I can not find the stat for A356.2 T6
Last edited by bkultra; 09-24-2009 at 10:36 AM.
09-24-2009, 01:01 PM
#58
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Love my Rota Torque wheels. Perfect for my daily driver. If I was a professional race car driver I would probably by one of the high end racing wheels that so many of you put on your cars.
I am a degreed Mechanical Engineer and I can tell you the chart posted above does not necessarily mean anything. It seems to me that the Rotas are well within any safety factor for a street use wheel. The price performance curve with most products is non linear which means as a street driver you get diminishing returns when buying racing wheels.
I am a degreed Mechanical Engineer and I can tell you the chart posted above does not necessarily mean anything. It seems to me that the Rotas are well within any safety factor for a street use wheel. The price performance curve with most products is non linear which means as a street driver you get diminishing returns when buying racing wheels.
09-24-2009, 02:06 PM
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Better check out how VS-XX looks like (which has been out for years), Brombacher is a VS-XX derivative, just made for Porsche.
Axis Shines were Maya DLS replicas.
They use gravity casting
http://www.rotawheels.com/process.shtml
much cheaper process.
Actually having possibility to produce monoblock forged wheel means the producer has much sophisticated technology. Anyone can produce 3-piece forged wheels nowadays, few can produce forged monoblocks.
Like which model?
just wanted to no what its more rediculously expense model is...
They use gravity casting
http://www.rotawheels.com/process.shtml
much cheaper process.
Like which model?
Last edited by The_VQ; 09-24-2009 at 02:19 PM.