swinke

I cant seem to find any posts about how much timing to pull under boost or what the total advance should be. 2003 touring w/ Procharger @9.5 PSI. Emanage blue for timing control. Since the exhaust upgrade I cant hear ping anymore. Just rebuilt the short block w/ 9 to 1 compression ratio and stronger rods.

IslandZavage

iTrader: (8)

You def might want to think about getting another EMS. WAYYYYYYYYY better options available...

Dynosty

iTrader: (27)

The best answer is found with a proper dyno tune, as every vehicle is going to be different (even when comparing to someone with the same setup as you).

swinke

I am aware of other options including dyno tuning. I need to start somewhere. I sold the car to a friend and am trying to get a starting point after the short block rebuild. The car has an FJO WBO2. Monitioring the AFR is no problem. Data logging capable as well. How is a dyno going to monitor engine ping?

swinke

The Greddy kit comes with an Emanage. It has a timing map in it from Greddy. TECHNOSQUARE does reflashes. They adjust the timing map in the ECU. Neither of these companies dyno the car. They use some basic timing correction. What is it?

Dynosty

iTrader: (27)

Please do not be offended, but this post is exactly why you need to see a qualified professional with regards to tuning. AFR can be monitored and tuned anywhere, but ignition timing can not be done in the same fashion as you need torque feedback. The dyno provides this - and coupled with a competent tuner and a knock monitor will provide the best power and safest tune. Being that this is a built motor is all the more reason. Providing generic values that would be "safe" or "conservative," could be overly retarded for your setup (is the new build lower compression?) and could cause damage as well.

Dynosty

iTrader: (27)

Both of these companies definitely did dyno tuning, on a stock repeatable setup, and then leaned to the conservative side to create their base maps. Being that you are at 9.5psi, lower compression built engine, exhaust etc rules out a generic base map for your setup.

ReV2Red

iTrader: (9)

I wish i could help, but the only thing i can suggest is to take the car out to the dessert (your in Nevada right?) and try road tuning it. Try doing a "pull" in 4th (to try and keep the speeds down a bit) and datalog it if you can. If not, advance the timing until you start to hear pinging (not detonation) and then you know what the limit is, then you just have to pull timing to a point you feel comfortable with, but don't pull too much as you'll start to increase your EGT's.
I'm no expert by no means, but from the bit of research i've done that seems to be what a lot of tuners do. Again, i'm no expert.

P.S. You have to make sure your A/F ratio's are dialed in first though.

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Worst advice I have ever heard!!!

OP, Unless you have a way to monitor knock via EMS or detcan then do not tune your timing on the street. You also need a dyno to advance the timing because you need to monitor your TQ curve. If there is no dyno then get at least an accelerometer to monitor your TQ curve and get some kind of knock monitoring device. By the time you hear knock on the street and at WOT then it may be to late to pull back some timing. An accelerometer or dyno will tell you if you are close to your knock threshold, there is no point of adding timing if you are not gaining any power.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

+1.

And what happened to your first engine?

Dv8

iTrader: (4)

So do you monitor the TQ curve to see if tq goes up, remains the same or loses with every advance in timing? When you don't see anymore gain its safe to say you've found where it should be set? Does it ever leap frog a value, meaning you add in 1 degree advance and no change from the previous run, but then you add 1.5 degree advance on top of the 1 degree you added previous (2.5) and viola, a significant + reading. Does it work like that or can you see gradual gains with every small advancement?

Would you say the Utec has very sensitive knock sensitivity? It seems like ive had to dumb down the sensitivity a lot from the default setting and push the threshold up to 30. If not the cars barely making anymore power and retarding from a knock event. My theory is that the vortech vibrates a lot.


~Dv8

Dynosty

iTrader: (27)

Dv8, it is not quite that simple (they can knock before tq drops) - but you've got the idea. And no, assuming all things constant it is not going to quit making power and then start again as you continue to advance timing.

Regarding your utec, are you sure it is not just knocking and cutting back a lot on timing to protect? Have you tried reducing timing rather than reducing sensitivity? You may want to visit a tuner as well - it does not take a lot of error to blow a VQ with regards to timing.

swinke

The new owner of the car has every intention of getting the car dyno'd after break in of the new parts. Just looking for a safe baseline to start at till then. Sharif, you rode in this car back in 2004 in Charlotte. The state of tune was not why it blew. I got 10k miles out of it @ 9psi. That's not bad for a road tuned 2003. At least not from what I've seen on this forum. I guess I should have titled the thread "Does anyone have the Greddy timing map from their Emanage". This is really all I need. I can extrapolate all else from there. New owner has every intention of new electronics in the near future. Just trying to get a starting point for now.

ReV2Red

iTrader: (9)

He said he needed to start somewhere. Note he has a built engine, and that i said pinging. NOT knocking or detonating, big difference. I personally wouldn't trust an accelerometer as far as i could throw it. Yes it will give you a ball park but definitely not accurate enough for seeing small changes in torque.
If he was stock block then i wouldn't suggest what i did, but built engines are able to take a bit more. Light pinging as long as you catch it soon enough is not destructive. Yes if he has access to a dyno then definitely start there, but i know a few high end tuners that will fine tune and finish there maps on the road because that is where you get the real world readings.

Chris@FsP

iTrader: (4)

Pinging, knocking, detonating = same thing.

swinke

This is disappointing. If you search the Civic forums for "timing boost" they all seem to have some idea of whats normal and whats unsafe and they publish the numbers. The Civic guys must do more actual tuning on their own cars? The shop owners on this forum say "take it in for dyno" and know one else has an answer? What are the boosted bunch running for timing on 350z's? Thousands of members in this forum, hundreds of tuned FI 350's and nobody knows what their timing is set at? This is a very simple question.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

You are lucky to have pro tuners giving you advice in this thread. The civic forums perhaps lack that? We all know what timing we run, but if you listen to what the professionals are telling you, you would know better than to continue asking for a magic number. You can download base maps for the UTEC or base maps for the Haltech and take a look at them but you are taking a gamble extrapolating into boost. Various #s for various peoples cars have been posted into this site on an ad hoc basis. You can search for it but it is still a gamble. Why not just run out of boost until you can get the car professionally tuned? When your pro VQ tuner dials in timing, you'll know what that engine is asking for to reach peak torque with minimum best timing that does not approach the knock threshold.

Good luck.

swinke

Truthfully I don't trust anyone I've met here in Vegas. At $150/hr+ I cant seem to get a Honda generator properly repaired for any of my optics labs. I've resorted to doing the work myself.

Thanks for the info. Thats all I needed to get started.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

total advance can be anywhere from 15-21* depending on your gas, how much boost you are running, etc.

start at 12* on the dyno and work your way up

ReV2Red

iTrader: (9)

Ok.

Pinging, or pinking: This is a light metallic clinking sound. It is caused by the ignition being too far advanced. What happens is the pressure rise in the cylinder happens too early and the piston rattles against the bore as it goes over TDC. This is a mechanical rattle and it has nothing to do with combustion.

Knock: Inside the combustion chamber as the flame front spreads out from the spark plug a series of reactions take place in the gases ahead of the flame front. We call the gases furthest away from the spark plug the end gases, and under certain conditions they can auto ignite. Instead of a smooth burn, we now have two flame front's colliding with each other producing a knocking sound. This noise is much heavier than the light pinking sound.

Pre-ignition, or detonation: Pre-ignition will kill an engine stone dead very quickly. This is where the air fuel mixture burns before the spark arrives. This is caused by something in the combustion chamber getting hot enough to ignite the fuel mixture, usually the spark plug overheats. Spark plug overheating can be caused by using the wrong plug grade for your application, but it is more commonly caused by ignition timing which is too far advanced and/or a weak mixture. The increased combustion temperature caused by advanced ignition or a weak mixture causes the plug to overheat and pre-ignition takes place. The plug is almost always the source, even if it isn't the cause.

To describe the different levels of pinking/knock/detonation you could say, pinking will make you concerned, knock will make you wince, and detonation will make you cringe.