My Z FAILED me today
11-25-2002, 02:44 PM
#1
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My Z FAILED me today
I am so dissapointed....I was flirting with a boxter today on Sunset in LA... for those of you who dont know its a two-lane windy road, lots of fun. I was probably going about 35, no big deal, just enjoying the road. Around a bend were stopped cars, and I hit the brakes, not too hard (it wasn't necessary for me to do so.) To my dismay, my car skidded slightly, and my foot had to mash the pedal to the floor in order for me to stop. The distance between me and the car in front of me was not small; I had no need to floor the brakes. The brakes in my '94 GS300, which were mushy and disgusting, would have probably stopped me in a shorter time. What the hell type of sportscar can't slow down from 40 to 0 in hundreds of feet? The Boxter guy probably thought I was an idiot, if he had noticed. Has this happened to anyone else? I have the touring brakes, and although I expected brake fade this was my first serious stop, and I dunno where the hell ABS went.
BTW-the paintjob is abomitable (black), whorls and scratches appear everywhere.
BTW-the paintjob is abomitable (black), whorls and scratches appear everywhere.
11-25-2002, 02:49 PM
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I guess the effectiveness of ABS depends on the road conditions. Was there any gravel or sand or anything on the pavement?
The only time my SE-R's wheels actually locked and skidded was when I stomped the brake on the freeway to avoid the car in front of me (who also jumped on his brakes). Maybe you pressed the brake too hard?
The only time my SE-R's wheels actually locked and skidded was when I stomped the brake on the freeway to avoid the car in front of me (who also jumped on his brakes). Maybe you pressed the brake too hard?
11-25-2002, 03:00 PM
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re: abs
ABS will stop you ASAP on any type of road surface but you have to floor them. It might not feel very nice but it works.
I've only had to use mine once and it worked perfectly.
I've only had to use mine once and it worked perfectly.
11-25-2002, 03:05 PM
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I had plenty of room
I wouldn't have been so dissapointed if I'd had a reason to floor the brakes. I had plenty of room, and I did not SLAM on the brakes.
11-25-2002, 03:38 PM
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maybe you are just an ( EDIT )l who does not know which pedal is the break pedal. another thing i would suggest is breaking sooner. also, were you on a downhill slope because your distnace could be decieving. anyways its suck to hear that your breaks dont work Ben. get that checked out.
BTW- i ordered a new amp today and i'll see if it fixes the problem. should be here next week. if it sucks i be definetly goin afta market.
BTW- i ordered a new amp today and i'll see if it fixes the problem. should be here next week. if it sucks i be definetly goin afta market.
Last edited by RainmanZ; 11-25-2002 at 06:12 PM.
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11-25-2002, 04:49 PM
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abs will make your stopping distance longer because they pulsate. Power brakes make you stop faster and shorter distance. ABS is just good to be able to steer away from the accident.
11-25-2002, 04:52 PM
#9
not totally true, powre brakes can lock up, giving you sliding friction, far weaker than static friction. abs pulses the brakes so as they lock up, the turn again, and repeats.
as for poor stopping distance, it had to have been related to situation, or something else, Ive read in mags of its ability to do 60-0 in 120 feet. and Ive tested them once for myself, and was more than satisfied by their performance.
as for poor stopping distance, it had to have been related to situation, or something else, Ive read in mags of its ability to do 60-0 in 120 feet. and Ive tested them once for myself, and was more than satisfied by their performance.
11-25-2002, 06:36 PM
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The touring brakes were tested showing 60-0 of 115 feet. A 911 GT2 (roughly $200,000 and weighs quite a bit less) requires 114 feet, we have excellent brakes!
11-25-2002, 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by SunsetZ
The touring brakes were tested showing 60-0 of 115 feet. A 911 GT2 (roughly $200,000 and weighs quite a bit less) requires 114 feet, we have excellent brakes!
The touring brakes were tested showing 60-0 of 115 feet. A 911 GT2 (roughly $200,000 and weighs quite a bit less) requires 114 feet, we have excellent brakes!
GT2 has ceramic rotors which requires it to be heated up in order to obtain maximum braking efficientcy.
Just so you know, the Toyota Camry has similar braking distance to the 350Z. Hell, even the SLK 32 AMG has brake fade at the track.
11-27-2002, 12:33 AM
#13
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Strange story.
It almost sounds like brake fade, where the pedal gets very mushy and the brakes just don't slow the car down. However, you say that you skidded, which makes it seems like the brakes were stopping fine, and it was the ABS that wasn't working correctly. At the same time, you say you were going around a corner, so maybe the car skidded a bit sideways due to the corner and not due to hard braking, and it really was brake fade. Fade would only occur if you had been braking hard and at high speeds prior to this final stop. Even if you were braking hard from 60MPH frequently, you shouldn't have experienced much fade. You would have to have been braking from 80 or so to really get things hot.
I don't know enough about anything than to offer any other advice but "get it checked out". The stock Z should have excellent braking in almost all street conditions, and the track model shouldn't have fade anywhere.
Actually, it is quite possible that there was debris on the road and the ABS worked normally (in some cars the ABS can cause the brake pedal to sink to the floor - don't know about the Z though).
-D'oh!
It almost sounds like brake fade, where the pedal gets very mushy and the brakes just don't slow the car down. However, you say that you skidded, which makes it seems like the brakes were stopping fine, and it was the ABS that wasn't working correctly. At the same time, you say you were going around a corner, so maybe the car skidded a bit sideways due to the corner and not due to hard braking, and it really was brake fade. Fade would only occur if you had been braking hard and at high speeds prior to this final stop. Even if you were braking hard from 60MPH frequently, you shouldn't have experienced much fade. You would have to have been braking from 80 or so to really get things hot.
I don't know enough about anything than to offer any other advice but "get it checked out". The stock Z should have excellent braking in almost all street conditions, and the track model shouldn't have fade anywhere.
Actually, it is quite possible that there was debris on the road and the ABS worked normally (in some cars the ABS can cause the brake pedal to sink to the floor - don't know about the Z though).
-D'oh!
11-27-2002, 10:05 AM
#14
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Zootsuit--
You repeated emphatically that you DID NOT stomp on the brakes in order to stop. During a panic stop in an ABS equipped vehicle, you SHOULD stomp on the brakes.
There is a campaign afoot attempting to teach people how to properly use anti-lock brakes. The mantra repeatedly uttered is, "Stomp, Stay, Steer. Stomp, Stay, Steer..."
During a panic stop in an ABS equipped vehicle, the driver should STOMP on the brakes (all the way to the floor as hard as you can), STAY on the brakes (do not release for any reason), and STEER the vehicle (go around any obstacles in your path).
This is the exact opposite of what drivers have been taught previously (in non-ABS equipped vehicles), but it is the correct way to perform a panic stop in an ABS equipped vehicle. Most people don't have a problem stomping on the brakes but staying on them is the problem.
Stomp, stay, steer. Stomp, stay, steer...
You repeated emphatically that you DID NOT stomp on the brakes in order to stop. During a panic stop in an ABS equipped vehicle, you SHOULD stomp on the brakes.
There is a campaign afoot attempting to teach people how to properly use anti-lock brakes. The mantra repeatedly uttered is, "Stomp, Stay, Steer. Stomp, Stay, Steer..."
During a panic stop in an ABS equipped vehicle, the driver should STOMP on the brakes (all the way to the floor as hard as you can), STAY on the brakes (do not release for any reason), and STEER the vehicle (go around any obstacles in your path).
This is the exact opposite of what drivers have been taught previously (in non-ABS equipped vehicles), but it is the correct way to perform a panic stop in an ABS equipped vehicle. Most people don't have a problem stomping on the brakes but staying on them is the problem.
Stomp, stay, steer. Stomp, stay, steer...
11-27-2002, 10:56 AM
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From somebody that teaches driving to racers, emergency vehicle drivers and regular people off the street I'm amazed at all the different answers and ideas everyone has regarding braking and ABS.
First of all ABS does not slow you down any faster on any kind of road surface or weather condition, it only alows you to maintain control of the car when too much pedal presure is applied. I know many of you are going to say "in rain, gravel and ice ABS is faster" but the truth is it only gives the driver more confidence. If you had a guy train only at threshold braking for months on loose surfaces and in various weather, I'll have you a bet he would eventualy be able to stop faster then ABS fully engaged. On the flip side however the difference in braking distances with or without ABS isn't much, something like 3ft-10ft or so, nothing outragous.
Secondly everyones idea that since I have ABS all I need to do is jam the brakes as hard as I can, is a little bit of a misconception. If you jam the brakes as hard as you can, the front to rear weight trasfer will be so dramatic that your ABS system will register the rear wheel lock much sooner and engage the system causing your braking distance to increase much more then 10ft. We like to teach the idea of a lemon underneath the brake pedal, and you should visualize squeezing all the juice out of the lemon. We're not saying brake slowly, only smoothly and firmly to let the weight transfer more naturaly and letting your ABS system engage only when it truly needs to. It's funny when we teach straightline braking to owners of sports cars I find that many are able to engage the ABS instantly but after all the coaching they are amazed at the amount of pedal pressure required to then engage ABS all the while they're braking distances are droping by nearly 1/4 the distance.
So IMO Zootsuit didn't supply everyone with enough information about his experience. I'm assuming because he said he saw cars stopped around a bend that he was conering at the time. So when he say's he skidded I'm assuming he skidded slightly sideways as apposed to straight on. The thing everyone needs to remember is that ABS and traction control are reactive systems, not active. In other words ABS won't kick in until your wheels lock up and traction will not operate the brakes and power until it registers slide or whatever parameters are set. Therefore your car will slide/skid some before the systems are able to correct it, as was evident on a recent Lexus IS300 course where we set up a tight corner, everyone was comming into too hot and the car would slip and slide about 1/4 to 1/2 a car width before gripping and tracking the proper line.
Sorry for the novel but hope this helps people understand things a bit better. Here's a good test for everyone to try is find an empty parking lot, cruise down with some decent speed then jam the brakes and yank the wheel. Your car will slide before it grips. Now try it with traction turned off and if you have enought speed you will spin out. ABS alone does not prevent you from skidding out, only lets you keep steering, so if you steer beyond the wheels traction, you will lose that traction.
First of all ABS does not slow you down any faster on any kind of road surface or weather condition, it only alows you to maintain control of the car when too much pedal presure is applied. I know many of you are going to say "in rain, gravel and ice ABS is faster" but the truth is it only gives the driver more confidence. If you had a guy train only at threshold braking for months on loose surfaces and in various weather, I'll have you a bet he would eventualy be able to stop faster then ABS fully engaged. On the flip side however the difference in braking distances with or without ABS isn't much, something like 3ft-10ft or so, nothing outragous.
Secondly everyones idea that since I have ABS all I need to do is jam the brakes as hard as I can, is a little bit of a misconception. If you jam the brakes as hard as you can, the front to rear weight trasfer will be so dramatic that your ABS system will register the rear wheel lock much sooner and engage the system causing your braking distance to increase much more then 10ft. We like to teach the idea of a lemon underneath the brake pedal, and you should visualize squeezing all the juice out of the lemon. We're not saying brake slowly, only smoothly and firmly to let the weight transfer more naturaly and letting your ABS system engage only when it truly needs to. It's funny when we teach straightline braking to owners of sports cars I find that many are able to engage the ABS instantly but after all the coaching they are amazed at the amount of pedal pressure required to then engage ABS all the while they're braking distances are droping by nearly 1/4 the distance.
So IMO Zootsuit didn't supply everyone with enough information about his experience. I'm assuming because he said he saw cars stopped around a bend that he was conering at the time. So when he say's he skidded I'm assuming he skidded slightly sideways as apposed to straight on. The thing everyone needs to remember is that ABS and traction control are reactive systems, not active. In other words ABS won't kick in until your wheels lock up and traction will not operate the brakes and power until it registers slide or whatever parameters are set. Therefore your car will slide/skid some before the systems are able to correct it, as was evident on a recent Lexus IS300 course where we set up a tight corner, everyone was comming into too hot and the car would slip and slide about 1/4 to 1/2 a car width before gripping and tracking the proper line.
Sorry for the novel but hope this helps people understand things a bit better. Here's a good test for everyone to try is find an empty parking lot, cruise down with some decent speed then jam the brakes and yank the wheel. Your car will slide before it grips. Now try it with traction turned off and if you have enought speed you will spin out. ABS alone does not prevent you from skidding out, only lets you keep steering, so if you steer beyond the wheels traction, you will lose that traction.
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