how do you disable vdc completly?
10-13-2005, 03:47 AM
#102
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I had my VDC 'kick back on' when it was turned off ONE time.
Upon air bag deployment. Without VDC stopping my car, it would probably still be spinning (tboned by a caddy at my rear tire). VDC came back on and I spun less then 270 degrees.
With the Yaw sensor disabled I highly doubt that VDC will kick back on in an accident (when you may actually really really really need it).
Besides that one time my VDC has never effected the way my car drives, even when I give it way too much throttle in the rain.
Upon air bag deployment. Without VDC stopping my car, it would probably still be spinning (tboned by a caddy at my rear tire). VDC came back on and I spun less then 270 degrees.
With the Yaw sensor disabled I highly doubt that VDC will kick back on in an accident (when you may actually really really really need it).
Besides that one time my VDC has never effected the way my car drives, even when I give it way too much throttle in the rain.
10-13-2005, 05:59 AM
#104
I see what you guys are doing, your're disconnecting the yaw sensing accelerometer in the center of the car. I would expect this to be where the "plug" under the center console that is supposed to be disconnected is.
VDC works by sensing yaw velocity and applying a single brake to block the rotation. If you are in an oversteer condition a front brake is applied, if you are in an understeer condition a rear brake is applied.
The TCS uses the same system to apply brake to the spinning rear wheel plus decrease throttle input via the electronic throttle using the wheel rotation sensors of the ABS system, therfore the "plug" under the center console would not be there since there are no yaw sensors in an Enthusiast or Base model.
VDC works by sensing yaw velocity and applying a single brake to block the rotation. If you are in an oversteer condition a front brake is applied, if you are in an understeer condition a rear brake is applied.
The TCS uses the same system to apply brake to the spinning rear wheel plus decrease throttle input via the electronic throttle using the wheel rotation sensors of the ABS system, therfore the "plug" under the center console would not be there since there are no yaw sensors in an Enthusiast or Base model.
10-13-2005, 06:22 AM
#106
Originally Posted by cupcar
The TCS uses the same system to apply brake to the spinning rear wheel plus decrease throttle input via the electronic throttle using the wheel rotation sensors of the ABS system, therfore the "plug" under the center console would not be there since there are no yaw sensors in an Enthusiast or Base model.
The Active Brake Limited Slip (ABLS) will brake a spinning rear wheel. But this is only available on VDC equipped Z and is always ON regardless of VDC switch status.
Owner Manual pp 5-22,23
10-13-2005, 07:01 AM
#107
If the driver isn't smart enough to take there foot off the gas, Nissan does it for them and a particularly silly times.
My car is a 6 speed and the system does feel as though only the throttle or timing is affected. The car falls on it's nose as soon as a rear wheel spins. This will sometimes happen for example when I hit a sharp bump in the road while accelerating. A rear wheel momentarily lifts, spins and the car falters then gets on with life. I hate it.
This is different than how the system in say a Porsche works, are you 100% sure that the Nissan TCS system is "throttle only" without selective rear brake application? It would make sense though since I imagine the brake application hardware would only be part of the VDC system.
Interesting, if true, this would make the TCS system even more worthless than I imagined.
My car is a 6 speed and the system does feel as though only the throttle or timing is affected. The car falls on it's nose as soon as a rear wheel spins. This will sometimes happen for example when I hit a sharp bump in the road while accelerating. A rear wheel momentarily lifts, spins and the car falters then gets on with life. I hate it.
This is different than how the system in say a Porsche works, are you 100% sure that the Nissan TCS system is "throttle only" without selective rear brake application? It would make sense though since I imagine the brake application hardware would only be part of the VDC system.
Interesting, if true, this would make the TCS system even more worthless than I imagined.
Last edited by cupcar; 10-13-2005 at 07:09 AM.
10-13-2005, 07:35 AM
#109
Originally Posted by cupcar
Interesting, if true, this would make the TCS system even more worthless than I imagined.
So, yeah, pretty useless. It will save overzealous newbies in some situation. But once you get used to the car, pretty useless...
10-13-2005, 07:41 AM
#110
My signature below says it all about the VDC, VDC was one reason I didn't buy a factory Track and built my own version.
I try to routinely drive with TCS off, but I forget to turn the f ' ing thing off.
Looking at the wiring diagram it appears that's all the "off" switch does is momentarily ground a terminal on the system. I wonder if the terminal were permanently grounded what would happen?
I try to routinely drive with TCS off, but I forget to turn the f ' ing thing off.
Looking at the wiring diagram it appears that's all the "off" switch does is momentarily ground a terminal on the system. I wonder if the terminal were permanently grounded what would happen?
10-13-2005, 08:11 AM
#111
Thinking about this some more I note that this means that the TCS on the Enthusiast is a unique system for the Z lineup. Here is my logic:
The Base model does not have TCS at all.
The Enthusiast ,since there is no VDC hardware, seems to have a "limited edition" of the TCS with the throttle control but not the selective rear wheel braking of the rest of the line.
The Performance, Touring and Track models all have VDC so have a TCS which includes selective wheel braking plus throttle control.
The question is how is the TCS system eliminated on the Base model? If this model uses the same ABS actuator that the other cars do, then how is it wired?
This is the question, for us Enthusiast's anybody know the answer?
The Base model does not have TCS at all.
The Enthusiast ,since there is no VDC hardware, seems to have a "limited edition" of the TCS with the throttle control but not the selective rear wheel braking of the rest of the line.
The Performance, Touring and Track models all have VDC so have a TCS which includes selective wheel braking plus throttle control.
The question is how is the TCS system eliminated on the Base model? If this model uses the same ABS actuator that the other cars do, then how is it wired?
This is the question, for us Enthusiast's anybody know the answer?
Last edited by cupcar; 10-13-2005 at 08:17 AM.
10-13-2005, 10:39 AM
#112
To summarize for the sake of those who won’t read the whole thing below…
The VDC looks at steering and braking by the driver, gets info from the yaw rate/side G sensor (gyroscope) and wheel sensors. It controls braking and engine power for all four wheels.
The TCS looks at the wheel sensors of all four wheels. It controls the brakes and throttle.
The ABS looks at the wheel sensors during braking. It controls the brakes to prevent lock-up.
The EBD looks at the wheel sensors during braking. It is looking for differences between the front and rear wheels. It controls the brakes to reduce rear wheel slip.
The following write-up is the description for all systems from the factory service manual.
VDC Function
_ In addition to the TCS/ABS function, the driver steering amount and brake operation amount are detected from the steering angle sensor and pressure sensor, and the vehicle's driving status (amount of understeering / over-steering) is determined from information from the yaw rate sensor/side G sensor, wheel sensor, etc., and this information is used to improve vehicle stability by controlling the braking and engine power to all four wheels.
_ The SLIP indicator lamp flashes to inform the driver of VDC operation.
_ During VDC operation, the body and brake pedal lightly vibrate and mechanical noises may be heard. This is normal.
_ The ABS warning lamp, VDC OFF indicator lamp, and SLIP indicator lamp might turn on when the vehicle is subject to strong shaking or large vibration, such as when the vehicle is on a turn table or a ship while the engine is running. In this case, restart the engine on a normal road, and if the ABS warning lamp, VDC OFF indicator lamp, and SLIP indicator lamp turn off, there is no problem.
TCS Function
_ The wheel spin of the drive wheels is detected by the VDC/TCS/ABS control unit from the wheel speed signals from the four wheels, so if wheel spin occurs, the rear wheel right and left brake fluid pressure control and engine fuel cut are conducted while the throttle value is restricted to reduce the engine torque and decrease the amount of wheel spin. In addition, the degree the throttle is opened is controlled to achieve the optimum engine torque.
_ Depending on road circumstances, the driver may have a sluggish feel. This is normal, because the optimum traction has the highest priority under TCS operation.
_ TCS may be activated any time the vehicle suddenly accelerates, suddenly downshifts, or is driven on a road with a varying surface friction coefficient.
_ During TCS operation, it informs a driver of system operation by flashing SLIP indicator lamp.
ABS Function
_ The Anti-Lock Brake System is a function that detects wheel revolution while braking, and it improves handling stability during sudden braking by electrically preventing 4 wheel lock. Maneuverability is also improved for avoiding obstacles.
_ If the electrical system breaks down, then the Fail-Safe function starts, the ABS becomes inoperative, and the ABS warning lamp turns on.
_ Electrical System Diagnosis by CONSULT-II is available.
EBD Function
_ Electronic Brake Distributor is a function that detects subtle slippages between the front and rear wheels during braking, and it improves handling stability by electronically controlling the Brake Fluid Pressure which results in reduced rear wheel slippage.
_ In case of electrical system break down, the Fail-Safe function is activated, the EBD and ABS becomes inoperative, and the ABS warning lamp and brake warning lamp are turned on.
_ Electrical System Diagnosis by CONSULT-II is available.
Fail-Safe Function
VDC / TCS SYSTEM
In case of Throttle Control System trouble, the VDC OFF indicator lamp and SLIP indicator lamp are turned on, and the condition of the vehicle is the same as the condition of vehicles without VDC / TCS equipment. In case of trouble to the Throttle Control System, the ABS control continues to operate normally without VDC / TCS control.
CAUTION:
If the Fail-Safe function is activated, then perform the Self Diagnosis for VDC/TCS/ABS control system.
ABS, EBD SYSTEM
In case of electrical problems with the ABS, the ABS warning lamp, VDC OFF indicator lamp and SLIP indicator lamp will turn on. In case of electrical problem with the EBD, Brake warning lamp, ABS warning lamp, VDC OFF indicator lamp and SLIP indicator lamp will turn on. Simultaneously, the VDC/ TCS/ABS become one of the following conditions of the Fail-Safe function.
1. For ABS trouble, only the EBD is activated and the condition of the vehicle is the same condition of vehicles without TCS/ABS equipment.
2. For EBD trouble, the EBD and ABS become inoperative, and the condition of the vehicle is the same as the condition of vehicles without TCS/ABS, EBD equipment.
NOTE:
In condition 1 described above, an ABS Self Diagnosis sound may be heard. That is a normal condition because a self diagnosis for “Key Switch ON” and “the First Starting” are being performed.
The VDC looks at steering and braking by the driver, gets info from the yaw rate/side G sensor (gyroscope) and wheel sensors. It controls braking and engine power for all four wheels.
The TCS looks at the wheel sensors of all four wheels. It controls the brakes and throttle.
The ABS looks at the wheel sensors during braking. It controls the brakes to prevent lock-up.
The EBD looks at the wheel sensors during braking. It is looking for differences between the front and rear wheels. It controls the brakes to reduce rear wheel slip.
The following write-up is the description for all systems from the factory service manual.
VDC Function
_ In addition to the TCS/ABS function, the driver steering amount and brake operation amount are detected from the steering angle sensor and pressure sensor, and the vehicle's driving status (amount of understeering / over-steering) is determined from information from the yaw rate sensor/side G sensor, wheel sensor, etc., and this information is used to improve vehicle stability by controlling the braking and engine power to all four wheels.
_ The SLIP indicator lamp flashes to inform the driver of VDC operation.
_ During VDC operation, the body and brake pedal lightly vibrate and mechanical noises may be heard. This is normal.
_ The ABS warning lamp, VDC OFF indicator lamp, and SLIP indicator lamp might turn on when the vehicle is subject to strong shaking or large vibration, such as when the vehicle is on a turn table or a ship while the engine is running. In this case, restart the engine on a normal road, and if the ABS warning lamp, VDC OFF indicator lamp, and SLIP indicator lamp turn off, there is no problem.
TCS Function
_ The wheel spin of the drive wheels is detected by the VDC/TCS/ABS control unit from the wheel speed signals from the four wheels, so if wheel spin occurs, the rear wheel right and left brake fluid pressure control and engine fuel cut are conducted while the throttle value is restricted to reduce the engine torque and decrease the amount of wheel spin. In addition, the degree the throttle is opened is controlled to achieve the optimum engine torque.
_ Depending on road circumstances, the driver may have a sluggish feel. This is normal, because the optimum traction has the highest priority under TCS operation.
_ TCS may be activated any time the vehicle suddenly accelerates, suddenly downshifts, or is driven on a road with a varying surface friction coefficient.
_ During TCS operation, it informs a driver of system operation by flashing SLIP indicator lamp.
ABS Function
_ The Anti-Lock Brake System is a function that detects wheel revolution while braking, and it improves handling stability during sudden braking by electrically preventing 4 wheel lock. Maneuverability is also improved for avoiding obstacles.
_ If the electrical system breaks down, then the Fail-Safe function starts, the ABS becomes inoperative, and the ABS warning lamp turns on.
_ Electrical System Diagnosis by CONSULT-II is available.
EBD Function
_ Electronic Brake Distributor is a function that detects subtle slippages between the front and rear wheels during braking, and it improves handling stability by electronically controlling the Brake Fluid Pressure which results in reduced rear wheel slippage.
_ In case of electrical system break down, the Fail-Safe function is activated, the EBD and ABS becomes inoperative, and the ABS warning lamp and brake warning lamp are turned on.
_ Electrical System Diagnosis by CONSULT-II is available.
Fail-Safe Function
VDC / TCS SYSTEM
In case of Throttle Control System trouble, the VDC OFF indicator lamp and SLIP indicator lamp are turned on, and the condition of the vehicle is the same as the condition of vehicles without VDC / TCS equipment. In case of trouble to the Throttle Control System, the ABS control continues to operate normally without VDC / TCS control.
CAUTION:
If the Fail-Safe function is activated, then perform the Self Diagnosis for VDC/TCS/ABS control system.
ABS, EBD SYSTEM
In case of electrical problems with the ABS, the ABS warning lamp, VDC OFF indicator lamp and SLIP indicator lamp will turn on. In case of electrical problem with the EBD, Brake warning lamp, ABS warning lamp, VDC OFF indicator lamp and SLIP indicator lamp will turn on. Simultaneously, the VDC/ TCS/ABS become one of the following conditions of the Fail-Safe function.
1. For ABS trouble, only the EBD is activated and the condition of the vehicle is the same condition of vehicles without TCS/ABS equipment.
2. For EBD trouble, the EBD and ABS become inoperative, and the condition of the vehicle is the same as the condition of vehicles without TCS/ABS, EBD equipment.
NOTE:
In condition 1 described above, an ABS Self Diagnosis sound may be heard. That is a normal condition because a self diagnosis for “Key Switch ON” and “the First Starting” are being performed.
10-13-2005, 11:09 AM
#113
Just to make it clear to me.
You are saying that none of the 350Z models have selective rear brake application to the spinning rear wheel as part of the TCS system, even those with VDC?
My question still is how is TCS eliminated on the Base model Z car and can it be applied to an Enthusiast model?
Edit: I see on a re-read of your post that you are quoting the factory service manual, not writing yourself. What I read tells me that the TCS applies selective braking VDC or no VDC. Read in bold of you post below:
TCS Function
_ The wheel spin of the drive wheels is detected by the VDC/TCS/ABS control unit from the wheel speed signals from the four wheels, so if wheel spin occurs, the rear wheel right and left brake fluid pressure control and engine fuel cut are conducted while the throttle value is restricted to reduce the engine torque and decrease the amount of wheel spin. In addition, the degree the throttle is opened is controlled to achieve the optimum engine torque.
_ Depending on road circumstances, the driver may have a sluggish feel. This is normal, because the optimum traction has the highest priority under TCS operation.
_ TCS may be activated any time the vehicle suddenly accelerates, suddenly downshifts, or is driven on a road with a varying surface friction coefficient.
_ During TCS operation, it informs a driver of system operation by flashing SLIP indicator lamp.
You are saying that none of the 350Z models have selective rear brake application to the spinning rear wheel as part of the TCS system, even those with VDC?
My question still is how is TCS eliminated on the Base model Z car and can it be applied to an Enthusiast model?
Edit: I see on a re-read of your post that you are quoting the factory service manual, not writing yourself. What I read tells me that the TCS applies selective braking VDC or no VDC. Read in bold of you post below:
TCS Function
_ The wheel spin of the drive wheels is detected by the VDC/TCS/ABS control unit from the wheel speed signals from the four wheels, so if wheel spin occurs, the rear wheel right and left brake fluid pressure control and engine fuel cut are conducted while the throttle value is restricted to reduce the engine torque and decrease the amount of wheel spin. In addition, the degree the throttle is opened is controlled to achieve the optimum engine torque.
_ Depending on road circumstances, the driver may have a sluggish feel. This is normal, because the optimum traction has the highest priority under TCS operation.
_ TCS may be activated any time the vehicle suddenly accelerates, suddenly downshifts, or is driven on a road with a varying surface friction coefficient.
_ During TCS operation, it informs a driver of system operation by flashing SLIP indicator lamp.
Last edited by cupcar; 10-13-2005 at 11:17 AM.
10-13-2005, 02:38 PM
#115
I have been studying the factory service manual and I note that if the car has VDC there is a "VDC actuator" which is a separate component installed above the ABS actuator.
Presumably the VDC actuator is the power source to apply brake pressure for VDC function, I wonder where the power souce is for the selective brake application on an Enthusiast with TCS but without VDC?
Presumably the VDC actuator is the power source to apply brake pressure for VDC function, I wonder where the power souce is for the selective brake application on an Enthusiast with TCS but without VDC?
01-21-2006, 02:40 PM
#116
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Originally Posted by DayBlueZ
I hate to ressurect this thread but, i do not have any harness under my console that even remotely looks like what you guys are talking about. I have a harness that is not connected to anything and the white harness that is for the flashers and heating the seats.
I have an 04 touring. Is it located somewhere else? or am i overlooking it?
I have an 04 touring. Is it located somewhere else? or am i overlooking it?
01-23-2006, 06:40 AM
#118
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Hi all
can someone please post a pic of what this harness looks like so i can disconnect mine. I can see a wiring loom small with a curly wire attached, is that it, its next to the shifter and ash tray?
Thanks :-)
can someone please post a pic of what this harness looks like so i can disconnect mine. I can see a wiring loom small with a curly wire attached, is that it, its next to the shifter and ash tray?
Thanks :-)
01-23-2006, 10:36 AM
#119
Heres a little interesting story maybe someone can shed light on, i was coming around a long high speed corner, probably round 50, then i saw up ahead an obstruction, so i started to break, then all of a sudden the rear of the car kinda kicked out and then straightened back in. This was with VDC and tCs on i pulled a WTF! it was pretty scary! it happened really fast, so fast i didnt have time to start countersteer, but like i said the back whipped back randomly and then i continuted to break. no vdc lights, no potholes, smooth road, maybe the brake bias?
01-23-2006, 10:46 AM
#120
Originally Posted by eat rice z33
Heres a little interesting story maybe someone can shed light on, i was coming around a long high speed corner, probably round 50, then i saw up ahead an obstruction, so i started to break, then all of a sudden the rear of the car kinda kicked out and then straightened back in. This was with VDC and tCs on i pulled a WTF! it was pretty scary! it happened really fast, so fast i didnt have time to start countersteer, but like i said the back whipped back randomly and then i continuted to break. no vdc lights, no potholes, smooth road, maybe the brake bias?
Maybe your car just saved you from an really bad day...
If you have no idea what happenned, you probably missed something, didn't feel a change in torque in the steering, didn't the sand patch/painted stuff...
Slid and caught it self and self centered.
It happens...
Thanks for understeering cars...