KwanZito

iTrader: (5)

When I was shopping for both of my Z's, I'd say that each time I was on the lot I saw a majority of MT's. Maybe 70% MT. This is on Long Island.

I agree with some of you that the MT may be on the way out, but I've said that for years and here we are still driving manuals. The new technology on some of these sequential gearboxes with dual clutches is truely impressive. From an enthusiast's standpoint, something like SMG could be seen as the true "sports car" because they can shift faster then any driver could; engaging the next gear as your previous gear is being disengaged. You minimize that downtime when you'd have the clutch depressed.

But at the same time, I'm sure you've all noticed how many cars now come with 6 speed MT's. An example of how the factory is choosing to cater to those of us who like the manual by giving us better equipment (although some still prefer a 5spd).

I still like to be lazy sometimes, and if I just have to run a quick errand I'll borrow my girls automatic-mobile. But I can't see myself ever buying an automatic for myself. Besides the fun factor, I've seen so many of my friends and family have auto tranny problems that screw up the car forever. Meanwhile I've never burned through a clutch, even with all the track days.

Suvlaki

I've always said... the cure to mans idiocy is to simply take the warning labels off everything, and I mean everything, and you know... let the world sort itself out. :-)

Peak350

iTrader: (6)

Waited <3 weeks for mine.

Just be patient and put a deposit down and they'll get you what you want.

Spike100

re> "The only cars I know of with paddle-shifters are ATs with manual overrides."

The 6 cylinder Audi TT with paddles is not an AT, has two clutches (but no clutch pedal), and shifts (by disengaging/engaging a true clutch) using paddles. It won't shift itself. The driver shifts the car. Same is true of the Ferrari, and the race cars you will see running in the Indy 500 this weekend. These cars do not have automatic transmissions. They cannot automatically up-shift or down-shift. The driver shifts these cars using the paddles. The special feature on paddle operated MT's is pressing the paddle disengages the clutch (i.e., there is no clutch pedal), selects the gear, and engages the clutch.

re> "The 5AT already has the necessary hardware and software."

What are you talking about? Cars or PlayStation II?

Isn't the AT in the Z just that, an automatic transmission? Ever hear of someone replacing the clutch disk in the AT of a Z?

--Spike

Havok_RLS2

iTrader: (9)

+1 Agree.... I see more Chicks driving the Z in Maryland than I do guys.

Aggro_Al

The DSG uses a computer controlled electro-hydraulic clutch just like every other AT that is consumer marketed. This includes all the trannies similar to the F1 and the Tiptronic.

It's been discussed before, all multi-gear transmissions have at least one clutch. It doesn't matter if the car is an automatic or a manual. The Audi DSG has two clutches, BMW SMG and a standard MT has one clutch and the current Tiptronic S has 6 clutches (7 if you count the torque converter as a clutch during torque multiplication or even 8 if you count the sprag clutch on the stator). The Z 5AT has a mechanical clutch in 3rd, 4th, 5th and Reverse. It also has a clutch pack for changing gears and you can technically count the torque converter as clutch when it's uncoupled. The Z also has a sprag clutch.

The Audi DSG has an auto-mode that will do all the shifting for you. No driver input is necessary. The Nissan 5AT has a manual-mode that won't upshift or downshift unless the driver shifts the gears manually or you are about to stall the engine. In the Z 5AT, you can bounce all day long against the rev limiter and it won't upshift until you tell it to. BTW, the Ferrari F1 will automatically upshift at redline whether you are in full auto-mode or in manual-mode. The simple fact that their functions are implemented by computers and electro-hydraulic controls instead of human controls is what makes them an automatic transmission. A standard manual transmission has no such controls. The driver manually controls the clutch with a mechanical pedal and manually changes the gears with a mechanical lever.

In an Indy Car, the paddles don't directly shift the transmission. When the driver activates the paddle it sends the shift command to the computer which controls the whole process of disengaging, changing gears and re-engaging. The driver only gets to tell the tranny when he wants to shift and the computer takes care of the actual process. This is the same process that all ATs with manual overrides go through. It doesn't matter if the command is activated by a paddle, button, toggle, lever (Z 5AT) or whatever they happen to be using as a switch. Indy Cars still come with a manual clutch. It's just not a pedal on the floor. They have a manual clutch paddle on the column that totally disengages the engine from the rest of the drivetrain. They uses it in the pit, at the start or if the car goes into a spin.

AT cars that use a torque converter don't use friction plates to transfer power to the drivetrain so there there is no need for a clutch disk or the need to replace a clutch disk. Cars with a TC use fluid coupling or a mechanical lock-up clutch. AT cars that use friction plates like the SMG or DSG would use a clutch disk. A clutch does not determine if a car is an automatic or manual because all multi-gear transmissions use at least one clutch. The clutch is what allows the engine and the rest of the drivetrain to spin at different speeds when unlocked or at the same speed when it is locked. The way that the clutch and shift function is controlled is what determines if it is a manual or automatic transmission. Currently, the only transmission that is a manual tranny is the good ole standard transmission.

I also stand by my quote that the 5AT has all the necessary hardware and software to allow both manual-mode and auto-mode shifting. Just go to any dealership and test drive one if you don't believe me.

Spike100

^^ I think I missed part of that. Mind repeating it?

Aggro_Al

Sure, I'll just summarize the whole thing ...

The only paddle-shifted cars that I'm aware of are all ATs with manual overrides. The 5AT has the hardware and software to use paddle-shifting and that it wouldn't be that expensive to add or maintain if they did the work at the factory.

UGOTZ'D

CIVIC SI AS WELL

Blue Highways

I've had probably twentyfive cars in my life and only five have been automatics--a '56 Chevy winter car beater,a '67 Firebird,a '78 Olds Cutlass,a '92 Nissan Z32 and a semi-current (year 2001) Maxima,which is for sale.( I don't count "The Green Piece of Chit",a horrible '79 Eldorado that I loathed and which,to this day,is Dead to me).

Today,my Z,my 200SX and my project car--Firebird Redux--are all manuals,and my NEXT twenty cars will probably also be manuals--if the manufacturers still make them available...

I guess it's a generational thing.When I went to High School,Driver's Ed was necessary if you wanted to get out of the Permit stage and actually get a Driver's License before age 17.The car I learned to drive on was a VW Microbus.My teacher would put a glass of water on the dashboard,then instruct us to go through the gears without spilling the water.
If you couldn't do that,you wouldn't pass.

I passed.
I got my DL,and the first car I owned--at 17--was a 1960 Triumph TR3-A,a manual,of course.I took an Advanced Driver's Course at Watkins Glen and earned an SCCA competition license at age 19,which I kept next to my nearly-fresh NY State Driver's license.I competed in rallys and autocross.Early on,I learned from experts--and through trial and error--how to really USE a manual.
I hardly EVER drove an automatic,and that was generally Mom's car which I'd use to haul my sportscar to racetracks.She had a Bonneville convertible then...

My next car was an MGB,then a Healy 3000 MK II...

I still had my 4th car(a '63 VeeDub Bug) when I bought my first automatic--the Chevy--and it's slushbox didn't last the Winter.When it finally burned out it's trans.,I left it on the side of a snowy freeway and never looked back.
The tranny would smoke and smell and slam into gear,whereupon it would slip like an elephant sliding down a glacier until it realized that it WAS in gear and needed to actually transmit.
One day it smoked too much,ceased transmitting and got left behind.I dug the Beetle out of storage and went on.

The Firebird (autobox #2)developed a secret leak in one of the trans lines,so it took to acting like the Chevy,finally dying on a lonely road leading to a ski resort,in the middle of nowhere,in February,at night.My girlfriend sat in the frosty passenger seat and cried,out of fear and frustration.
When I went to repair it,I looked in vain for a mechanic who would transplant a Muncie into the 'Bird,but the cost was prohibitive,so I bought another Beetle--a '67 --(they were cheap then--$400-$500 would put you in a beater Bug)and drove it into June,when I finally got the 'Bird on the road again.

THAT'S when I realized just how much I enjoyed a stick shift.
I had been missing the freedom of choice,gear wise,when it came to being exactly where I wanted to be in the power band whenever a driving condition would neccessitate a gear change.Even in the low-powered VW,I could feel it.I loved the ability to move a lever and extract torque and horsepower whenever I wanted to.The feeling of CONTROL had become a heady,inbred experience,something I expected out of my cars.I even learned how to shift without using the clutch.

Some years later and 4 cars down,I got married and in a puff of affluence,bought #3--the Olds Cutlass--for my bride and me.We went on our honeymoon--Florida to NYC--in our new,3-year-old plushmobile,and the transmission leaked all the way up the Coast and burned out on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge,ten miles out in the Bay,at 2AM.My wife sat in the passenger seat,crying.
Deja-vu set in.I vowed then to NEVER screw around with automatics again.

That's when I started buying Japanese,and when I discovered just how good cars from Over There could be,and I didn't stop:since the late '70s,all but two of my cars --a BMW and a Ford F-150 --have been Japanese.
Except for a short-lived seven months with the Automatic Nissan (my least-favorite Z ever ) and my long-term experience with the Maxima,I have never given much thought to owning something that I can't shift.

I've passed the skills I learned onto my kids,and they both have a steady history of owning cars you shift,so I know as I go into the twilight that they will possess an ability that fewer and fewer drivers now have.

Spike100

^^ Nice read. Glad to hear you've passed the skills onto your kids. I hope the MT never goes away. I don't think this will happen as long as we keep teaching our kids to drive a stick. I learned the skill from my Dad and my Grandfather. I'm glad I didn't miss this experience.

--Spike

Spike100

It appears we are now debating semantics (and that is not something that other readers here want to see).

So... Can you live with the term "Semi-Automatic Transmission?"

Here is some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-au...c_transmission

--Spike

arma

iTrader: (3)

if u manually select the gear its not auto. the 5at in MANUAL mode is manual regardless of having a clutch. the new tt is paddle shift dsg (manually selecting gears). same with the '6at' c6 vettes. its not dsg i dont think but ur still telling it what gear to be in. ya technically its not like a manual that has a clutch that u depress (well duh) but its like 'die hard' clutch lovers refuse to admit that shifting with paddles is better and more efficient. even shifting with the auto stick in the z is more efficient.

take a new vw gti with dsg and a new gti with a 6 speed that has the same mods and the dsg will out shift, as it MANUALLY selects its gears, the 6 speed 'manual'.

Spike100

Not sure I understood everything you said, but thanks for input.

For sure, a semi-automatic transmission (a clutch(s) - but no foot pedal to operate the clutch, paddle shifter, and gears with teeth that mesh) provides better performance in a race car than a standard MT with a foot pedal operating the clutch. That's why the Indy cars racing this Sunday all have semi-automatic transmissions (but, not automatic transmissions). If a MT with a clutch pedal provided better results, that is what they would use. But, they don't. There have been Formula cars equipped with an automatic transmission; and althought they performed very well, the automatic transmission always failed before the end of the race.

Something else that is interesting about automatic transmission cars that also have a "sport" mode (i.e., manual shifting capability). Car & Driver has run acceleration tests with the AT in automatic mode vs. manual mode, and very often the automatic mode turns in better times than the "manual" mode. The idea being an AT is designed to operate optimally with automatic shifting. That is not the case with semi-AT's that are designed for manual shifting.

As far as which is better in the Z, MT or AT... I'm not going anywhere near that discussion. I've seen what happens when someone voices a preference for either on this Forum. I'll only say that each is good for what it is designed to do and what an individual driver wants in a car.

Here are some links for anyone who is interested in the different transmission configurations

Manual Transmission (e.g., Z with clutch pedal):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_transmission

Automatic Transmission (e.g., Z with AT):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission

Semi-automatic transmission (e.g., Formula race car):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-au...c_transmission


--Spike

z-u-later

iTrader: (43)

WARNING TO NEWBS: Don't even waste bandwidth arguing with our resident 5AT expert -- Aggro_Al If your only responses come from Googling wikipedia, then you don't have any credibility.

I read these threads for entertainment on a regular basis. There's always one or two posted by newbs every week. We do have some M/T owners who are always eager to express their masculinity about owning an M/T Z. The funny thing is, I've been driven M/T cars/trucks before most of them were even born. I bought my 5AT Z for two simple reasons -- reliability & practicality.

What's even hilarious is how these same owners bought an M/T sports car and have never even taken their Z to a track. This is not any different than someone who buys a 4WD truck or SUV and have never taken their vehicle off-roading. What a waste . . .

And to anyone who wants to know which is faster, 5AT or 6MT? It comes down to the driver. I autocross my Z regularly (manual mode) and consistently post better times than most other high powered cars, to include an occassional Z06. And the look on some of these drivers when they peak in my Z and sees my 5AT -- PRICELESS!

Aggro_Al

If you want to call it a semi-automatic that's fine with me. These types of trannies have gone by several different names. (Manumatic, Tiptronic, SMG, Sequential Shifters, F1, DSG, clutchless manuals, paddle shifters, etc.) It really doesn't matter what name you use as long as you describe it right and don't claim that it's just like a standard MT.

Most of the old style AT's (what most people called a slushbox) have been pretty much phased out back in the late 70s and early 80s. The govenors, modulators and throttle cables have been replaced with electronic controls. Now these are being phased out for the more advanced F1 and Tiptronic style transmissions.

I think that the standard MT will probably go the way of the old style AT's sooner rather than later. The F1 and Tiptronic style transmissions will still be around but I think even they will go when newer technologies like the CVT and Zeroshifter get better and become more commonplace. With the pressures of a more efficient car that runs on electricity or other alternative fuels becomes greater, the demand for a better or more efficient method of transfering the power from the engine to the rest of the drivetrain will have to change to meet the challenge. Who knows what will come in the near future. Maybe we'll have an electrical induction transmission that will use a magnetic field to transfer power or the Flux Capacitor might become real instead of a joke.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

Wikipedia as reference ?!? How lame...

NObody thought of quoting books like the BOSCH Automotive Handbook ? OR any SAE documentation for that matter ?

Hey, I can change gears on my 6MT Z without using the clutch, at my command. So from now on, I'll say I have a semi-auto gear box. There, Wikipedia agrees with me.

Am I the only one here how would beleive that any gearbox that'll shift/change drive ratio on its own should be called and auto ?!?

LastODJedi

I have a 6MT Touring and I love it!!!

joekool

useless thread.

Spike100

You're probably correct... But 2500 views? "Catchy" thread title?