rob6118

Is it just me or are domestic TCS really shitty in comparison to the Z's? My 03 touring with TCS but not VDC (5AT) is my first sports car (coming from pickups and sportbikes) but I'm in love with the TCS. I know how to wheelie out of turns on a sportbike, but handling a car with 287 hp has been a learning experience made much more comfortable by the TCS.

Prior to buying my Z however I test drove a number of domestic vehicles like an 05 mustang gt 6spd and it was a BEAST even with the TCS. Dropping the clutch with any speed at all would easily kick out the rear end. VS the Z just chirping the tires.

The most noticable difference being the ability to accelerate into turns. I've experienced it myself and seen several domestic cars allow the driver to get the vehicle out of control (45 degrees out violently) even with the traction control while accelerating into a turn.

I feel the Z's TCS is a bit overprotective in the AUTO as it is quick to retard timing and power to the wheels but I've noticed that while in the manual shifting mode the TCS is much more precise and really lets you push the rear end to the limit without the car doing anything nasty.

Anyone else feel the same way? Or does the 13 extra hp that the mustang has over the Z (or the straight axle) make it that much nastier to control?

Rob

PS This post comes after seeing a Caddillac VCTS almost eat it in a turn trying to show off. After the fact he said TCS was engaged.

Z04

iTrader: (15)

it is not the TCS that is the problem, it is the driver.

HDPDZO6

Stupidity will always beat out traction control, regardless of the vehicle.

If you are having to rely on the TCS in your 350Z on a roadcourse, might I suggest a performance driving school?

rob6118

Guys I've had the car for a week and a half. And its not like I'm racing it hard. Just experimenting trying to find the limits of the car so I know what it can do in a tight situation......

I wasn't looking for a slam contest on the drivers, I was looking more for an analysis between the different systems.

But I also wonder how much of a difference the straight axle makes but I'm pretty sure the caddy has an IRS.

zfokaiz

well said...

Paul350Z

iTrader: (1)

Weight distribution also has a major effect on the motion physics.

jray8

+10

Z04

iTrader: (15)

that's cool. just be safe when you are experimenting and suggest you do this on a track (roadcourse) to ensure no on else gets hurt.

it is not a slam contest, that is fact. traction issues with a car are 90% driver error. as for comparison between brands, the only true comparison you can do is to go out and drive those cars yourself then make your own decision on which is better or worse. anything less of that is just a waste of time since you will not get fact, just personal opinion.

WhiteNoiz

Good post rob. Interesting take. I have not had an opportunity to evaluate the traction control on anything other than the Z, but I do really like the Z's traction control system. It is interesting to see how the car reacts having it on and off. Its kinda funny kicking out the back and feeling the TC retard the car. Save the testing without it on for an open parking lot*, and maybe some rain.


*flame retardant
this of course is a private parking lot that your best friend owns and its blocked off at all entrances, or, your at a track.

rob6118

Let me use a sportbike analogy. Some sportbikes are much more controllable then others when it comes to applying power to the rear wheel. Any modern sportbike can be made to lose traction quite easily in inexperienced hands. But given experienced hands there are certainly sportbikes that I prefer. My 900rr and my gsxr750 have similiar power but the 750 allows me to go much faster because it is more controllable given the same amount of rider skill.

A 600 rwhp car is worthless if given the same amount of skill in the driver it is 4 times harder to control then our measly 287hp.

I.e. any vehicle is worthless if it requires a F1 driver to transmit the power. I.e. don't slam a driver's appreciation of TCS just because he isn't a F1 driver.

Obviously driver skill can make a big difference between two drivers with TCS. So TCS does not negate driver skill, it only aids it when you step that little bit over the line in your pursuit of defining that line.

With that said, I like TCS but only if it seemlessly steps in when I slightly step over the line. I don't want it to kill the car's power because it thinks I'm getting near the limit, but as I said it appears to be much better in the manual shift mode in the 5at 350z.

By the same token the Mustangs TCS should not engage only once you are so far over the line that it makes it difficult for you to learn the limits of the car.

Taking TCS off should only be done to abuse the car / smoke tires, otherwise it should only be considered an aid to a competant driver pushing the car as far as it will go. But that is assuming a well designed TCS system.

If all you have experienced is crappy TCS then you probably feel differently.

That's why I asked about others experience among different systems. This is the first vehicle that I have had it on, and I felt there was a large difference between ford and nissan. I was curious what an m3 or m5's system might feel like and was soliciting other's experiences.

HDPDZO6

You will never see the maximum performance capabilities of the 350Z with TCS engaged.

You are incorrect to suggest it should only be turned off to abuse the car / smoke the tires.

my350isblack

iTrader: (6)

what is this TCS you speak of?

rob6118

Feel free to explain in detail because I haven't found a post on the topic.......

I'm open to having my opinion changed, afterall this is my first experience but as an engineer/accountant/finance/mechanic sort of guy I like arguments against TCS to consist of more then "you're a HORRIBLE driver if you need TCS".

I can't really see how the TCS engaged in the manual shift mode reduced the performance of the car at all until the rear started to break a little. The TCS will allow a very amount of slippage but will not allow the rear end to swing out 30 degrees.

I'll grant you that you can swing it our 30 degrees and still have control (not my thing but you see it) but are you really suggesting that the quickest way through a set of twisties is drifting through turns F&F style rather then keeping the rear tires in traction? And if the fastest way is maintaining traction and maximizing power transmission to the ground then how does the TCS hurt performance. It's not robbing HP unless the tires are spinning right?

IMHO TCS is like the new systems on cars like the M5 where you push a button to perform a race start. While I agree that pushing a button to go 0 to 60 in 4.1 secs might be boring (certainly not like trying to control a 160hp literbike) but I don't really see how you can argue that a human can do it better? If you want the raw experience don't push the button, otherwise enjoy the benefit of technology.

Feel free to explain. And if you are bored perhaps you can address why Nissan didn't offer VDC for autos. In my limited experience with the car I don't think understeer is that big of an issue so I don't think VDC is as valuable as TCS but as I said thats limited experience.

Rob

PS To the guy with the TransAm: so a pontiac has better TCS then a Caddillac

0jiggy0

iTrader: (13)

It sounds like your assuming TCS only engages at the extreme limit of the z's handling. It doesnt work like that. The TCS is for safety first.

Im horrible at explaining myself, but im going to try. In gran turismo you can set the level of traction control from 1 to 10. 10 it activates well before you'll start to slip. 1 it will let you have some fun before it activates.

The TCS in the Z is closer to 10. Certain super cars like say ferrari may be closer to 1.

I agree with something your saying. Depending on your skill level the TCS might give you the best performance. But if we're talking max performance with a skilled driver, driver skill > TCS.

HDPD hit it on the head tho. I guess for you to understand you would have to go to a track and get a lot of practice, then take a lap with TCS on and off and see the laptime difference.

Remember this is a 30k 287-306 hp car. Safety is a necessity for the avg idiot and/or kid.

As for why no VDC in the auto, maybe cuz they believed the more extreme driver would get the MT6.

For the difference between why and how different companies TCS opperates, good luck asking said company's engineers that one.

I hope i helped somewhat.

Entaille

iTrader: (16)

I turn off TCS - but leave it on under the following conditions:

rain
temps under 40* or after a night where temps have been under 40*

that's about it. your right foot is the best form of traction control. TCS is a performance killer in my mind, but it serves its purpose in conditions you shouldn't be driving aggressive in the first place.

rob6118

Nice response....I wonder if TCS is programmed to operate differently in auto vs manual mode for the 5at.

In that case I agree a large part of the answer is for me to hit a track because there are some cases where I am surprised that TCS engaged (30mph revs at 5k in a gentle turn accelerating moderately on dry pavement).

There are a fair amount of highly detailed/specialized posts on here (an analysis on intake manifold vortexes) and thought an engineer may have looked into the guts of his 30k car to figure out how they make it do what it does.

Dr. Venture

iTrader: (19)

im sorry to say that i would have never bought the automatic if i were to bring the Z to it's limitations. Specially if you were going to mod after the fact to correct the problems and or bring up the Z's potential.

But on the other hand a person has to do what a person has to do in order to become one with his or her car to even be able to drive the car to it's and your potential and develop those driving skills that MANY people just do not have. (specially in NJ) ha ha.

I feel a person has to grow with the car instead of jamming w/e parts you buy and have you catch up to the vehicles new performance.

Personally i drive like Mario Andriette on the streets and i've never had any traction issues other than a down shift in the turns on a rainy day.Saves tires on the drift though...

Enjoy the Z man!

rob6118

I was looking at things much more conservative (like an audi a6) but the z was right next to it at the dealership and I figured WTH might as well go for a joy ride. Well me and the g/f fell in love so I got it.

12,500 for an 03 touring in great shape with 48k miles. Good deal? I hear you on the 5at bu the cheapest comparable 6MT that I could find in Orlando was probably 16-17k. That price difference would pretty much buy any bolt on mod that I would like so I figure its not worth it. But to each their own.

Plus you have to consider I have a messed up left leg, and I know how much of a pain a manual can be with a stiff clutch in heavy orlando traffic. With my leg in the mix I didn't want to risk getting a car I wouldn't enjoy no matter what type of driving was available

WhiteNoiz

To be completely honest, you shouldn't feel bad at all having the AT. The Z has a great AT. That topic has been beaten to a bloody pulp's pulp. Now if you had a 5th get prelude, like I traded in for the Z, that would be a different story. That auto tranny defined slush box. It had "manual mode" and it would what I call "rev slam" when downshifting. 78% failure rate on that tranny.

robertinmesa

I love VDC on my car.