The REAL cost of owning a Z
03-17-2004, 02:18 PM
#1
The REAL cost of owning a Z
We've seen alot of posts lately with guys asking "Do you think I should buy a Z?", or "I make x dollars a month, what kind of Z should I get?", or "If I spend every last penny I'll ever make for the next six years, I think I can afford a Z. Should I do it?".
I thought it would be interesting to do some research about the REAL cost of owning a Z. The monthly payment is just a small part of the equation, but for alot of these guys it's the only part they're looking at (and maybe insurance), and I believe that their lust to own one of these fine cars is doing the devils work. I've been down the road that many of them are walking, and I can't express how I wish I could steer them in a different direction. Cars are fun, they are a hobby for many of us, but when you've sold yourself into slavery or poverty to have the "car of your dreams", it can quickly turn from beauty into burden.
As an example, a guy who has stretched himself to the breaking point to buy the car isn't going to be able to fix the bumper when he backs it into a pole. Now he's driving around in his busted up dream, embarassed that he can't afford to make the car represent the sacrifice he's made to own it. Maybe he's done a few too many doughnuts in the car and now the tires are bald. When it doesn't pass inspection and he doesn't have the money to replace the tires, he gets a ticket for expired inspection or unsafe equipment. Now the money he was saving to buy tires is paying for the ticket. Of course these are worst case scenarios, but worst case isn't ever far away, is it. At least one of these has happened to me, and if my experience can be lessons for someone else, I'm all for it. We live in a NOW world, and sometimes it's hard (especially when you're young) to look 5 or 6 years into the future and think about what changes will have taken place. So, I figured I'd see what the experts have to say about the long term responsibilities of owning a Z.
Here's the short and skinny of it: You ready? Strap your shorts on fellas, cause this is gonna blow you away!
According to edmunds.com, if you buy a USED 2003 Nissan 350Z for $23,000 out the door (good luck!), of which you put 10% down and finance the remaining $21,000-ish over 60 months, the TCO (True Cost to Own) works out to be about $32,203. Now get this... TCO is the amount the vehicle is estimated to cost you ABOVE the actual sale price of the car!!! TCO is factored using the following things: Depreciation, Financing (Interest), Taxes & Fees, Fuel, Maintenance, and finally Repairs.
All numbers are based on ownership in Chicago, driving 15000 miles/year.
The categories broke down like this:
Depreciation: $8,974. Your car will sell for almost 9K less than you paid for it after 5 years. Basically, this means that joy of driving a Z (ALL other costs aside) will cost you nine thousand dollars if you sell the car after 5 years. Realistically, this isn't too bad as far as vehicle depreciation goes. Most cars are worse, so this is probably really a plus for the big Z.
Financing: At an average rate, the interest on your loan is going to cost just $2,850. Not too bad over 5 years.
Taxes and Fees: This one really varies by state/county, but for the sake of research, Edmunds says that you'll pay $2,287 in taxes and fees in that 5 years. Take it or leave it depending on where you live.
Fuel: $6,200 in gas (again, based on a 15000 mile/year average). Gas isn't getting any cheaper, and if unlike your gas, your right foot isn't unleaded, you can bet this will go up. If you're wondering, this works out to $103/month in gas if you drive ~1250 miles/month. You decide if that's you or not.
Insurance: Edmunds says that $4771 of your paycheck will go to insurance over 5 years AT AN AVERAGE ANNUAL PREMIUM OF JUST $950 DOLLARS. Most 16-19 year olds are looking at $950 or more every six months, so I'd guess the number for purposes of this discussion is really in the neighborhood of $9500 (to keep it nice and round).
Maintenance: Sports cars ain't cheap on the up-keep! Edmunds says it'll take almost $6,100 to keep your Z running for 5 years. This is scheduled (oil changes) and unscheduled (tire replacement/alignment, etc.) maintenance. If you do donughts in your spare time, you can bet this number is WAY low.
Repairs: They put a blurb in about repairs, and something about an extended warranty, covering things that wouldn't be covered after the manufacturers warranty expired at 36K miles. They guesstimate this cost to be just under $1,000 over the five years. Maybe it's worth it, maybe it's not. That's an argument for another time.
So what does this all boil down to for you guys who are wondering if you can afford a Z or not? Well, let's assume that you're never going to sell the car, and you don't care about the depreciation. Fine, let's cut that 9 thousand dollars out of the picture. The total cost, NOT INCLUDING the purchase price of the car over 5 years works out to almost $27,000. The Z is now going to cost you, out of pocket, $46,000.
Do what you will with this information, I just hope that it finds you before you stick yourself in the crosshairs and ask whether we think you should buy a Z or not.
Best Wishes.
I thought it would be interesting to do some research about the REAL cost of owning a Z. The monthly payment is just a small part of the equation, but for alot of these guys it's the only part they're looking at (and maybe insurance), and I believe that their lust to own one of these fine cars is doing the devils work. I've been down the road that many of them are walking, and I can't express how I wish I could steer them in a different direction. Cars are fun, they are a hobby for many of us, but when you've sold yourself into slavery or poverty to have the "car of your dreams", it can quickly turn from beauty into burden.
As an example, a guy who has stretched himself to the breaking point to buy the car isn't going to be able to fix the bumper when he backs it into a pole. Now he's driving around in his busted up dream, embarassed that he can't afford to make the car represent the sacrifice he's made to own it. Maybe he's done a few too many doughnuts in the car and now the tires are bald. When it doesn't pass inspection and he doesn't have the money to replace the tires, he gets a ticket for expired inspection or unsafe equipment. Now the money he was saving to buy tires is paying for the ticket. Of course these are worst case scenarios, but worst case isn't ever far away, is it. At least one of these has happened to me, and if my experience can be lessons for someone else, I'm all for it. We live in a NOW world, and sometimes it's hard (especially when you're young) to look 5 or 6 years into the future and think about what changes will have taken place. So, I figured I'd see what the experts have to say about the long term responsibilities of owning a Z.
Here's the short and skinny of it: You ready? Strap your shorts on fellas, cause this is gonna blow you away!
According to edmunds.com, if you buy a USED 2003 Nissan 350Z for $23,000 out the door (good luck!), of which you put 10% down and finance the remaining $21,000-ish over 60 months, the TCO (True Cost to Own) works out to be about $32,203. Now get this... TCO is the amount the vehicle is estimated to cost you ABOVE the actual sale price of the car!!! TCO is factored using the following things: Depreciation, Financing (Interest), Taxes & Fees, Fuel, Maintenance, and finally Repairs.
All numbers are based on ownership in Chicago, driving 15000 miles/year.
The categories broke down like this:
Depreciation: $8,974. Your car will sell for almost 9K less than you paid for it after 5 years. Basically, this means that joy of driving a Z (ALL other costs aside) will cost you nine thousand dollars if you sell the car after 5 years. Realistically, this isn't too bad as far as vehicle depreciation goes. Most cars are worse, so this is probably really a plus for the big Z.
Financing: At an average rate, the interest on your loan is going to cost just $2,850. Not too bad over 5 years.
Taxes and Fees: This one really varies by state/county, but for the sake of research, Edmunds says that you'll pay $2,287 in taxes and fees in that 5 years. Take it or leave it depending on where you live.
Fuel: $6,200 in gas (again, based on a 15000 mile/year average). Gas isn't getting any cheaper, and if unlike your gas, your right foot isn't unleaded, you can bet this will go up. If you're wondering, this works out to $103/month in gas if you drive ~1250 miles/month. You decide if that's you or not.
Insurance: Edmunds says that $4771 of your paycheck will go to insurance over 5 years AT AN AVERAGE ANNUAL PREMIUM OF JUST $950 DOLLARS. Most 16-19 year olds are looking at $950 or more every six months, so I'd guess the number for purposes of this discussion is really in the neighborhood of $9500 (to keep it nice and round).
Maintenance: Sports cars ain't cheap on the up-keep! Edmunds says it'll take almost $6,100 to keep your Z running for 5 years. This is scheduled (oil changes) and unscheduled (tire replacement/alignment, etc.) maintenance. If you do donughts in your spare time, you can bet this number is WAY low.
Repairs: They put a blurb in about repairs, and something about an extended warranty, covering things that wouldn't be covered after the manufacturers warranty expired at 36K miles. They guesstimate this cost to be just under $1,000 over the five years. Maybe it's worth it, maybe it's not. That's an argument for another time.
So what does this all boil down to for you guys who are wondering if you can afford a Z or not? Well, let's assume that you're never going to sell the car, and you don't care about the depreciation. Fine, let's cut that 9 thousand dollars out of the picture. The total cost, NOT INCLUDING the purchase price of the car over 5 years works out to almost $27,000. The Z is now going to cost you, out of pocket, $46,000.
Do what you will with this information, I just hope that it finds you before you stick yourself in the crosshairs and ask whether we think you should buy a Z or not.
Best Wishes.
Last edited by kcobean; 03-17-2004 at 02:23 PM.
03-17-2004, 07:13 PM
#2
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THANK YOU.. FINALLY.. somebody did the research. These kids and people posting about affording the car just will NOT get it through their head that it goes a lot further then monthly payments.. and im SURE this will only make kids say to themselves o thats BS no way. Its not some mystery that old people just make up to scare kids out of financial independance. It is very true.. you better make atleast your monthly payments of insurance and car in a week to even think of affording the car...
03-17-2004, 07:51 PM
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Noone ever figures in the cost of 93 octane gas either!
I just put 17.5 gallons in my tank, and that set me back over $32!!!
That works out to about $15/week JUST for the gas. Add in insurance, payments, cleaning supplies, time spent cleaning, new tires, alignment, speeding tickets, etc, etc, etc it really starts to add up!
If you are just squeaking by making the payments and insurance, you are just digging yourself a hole. Remember, you've gotta pay to play, and the ante for this game aint cheap!
Captinb
I just put 17.5 gallons in my tank, and that set me back over $32!!!
That works out to about $15/week JUST for the gas. Add in insurance, payments, cleaning supplies, time spent cleaning, new tires, alignment, speeding tickets, etc, etc, etc it really starts to add up!
If you are just squeaking by making the payments and insurance, you are just digging yourself a hole. Remember, you've gotta pay to play, and the ante for this game aint cheap!
Captinb
03-17-2004, 08:33 PM
#4
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aah yes. Tack on mods for ankle grabbing fun while numbers crunching.
Autocross every month plus practices...about $65/mo. Oil changes with Motul synthetic plus filter about $50 per 3k mile or every 2 months for me. Road course events at $120 per 4 times a year. So about $1560 to race per year. Events are never that close so that's extra gas you have to buy so figure $600 in fuel per year. So i'm over $2k per year to race at an amateur level.
Let's see here...about $5k in mods (thank god i don't pay for installation).
But it's the price you pay. I could easily also be paying $25-40 per week to play golf, still have to pay the gas to get there, pay for ***** since I'd probably lose 3-4 of them per round.
Or I could've bought a bigass SUV for the same if not more price and then pay ridiculous coin for gas.
Or we could all buy an econobox, never do anything but work and go home, and visit myhybrid.com and talk about our latest mods involving vinyl, electrical tape, and hi-efficiency batteries but our pocketbooks would be fatter.
Autocross every month plus practices...about $65/mo. Oil changes with Motul synthetic plus filter about $50 per 3k mile or every 2 months for me. Road course events at $120 per 4 times a year. So about $1560 to race per year. Events are never that close so that's extra gas you have to buy so figure $600 in fuel per year. So i'm over $2k per year to race at an amateur level.
Let's see here...about $5k in mods (thank god i don't pay for installation).
But it's the price you pay. I could easily also be paying $25-40 per week to play golf, still have to pay the gas to get there, pay for ***** since I'd probably lose 3-4 of them per round.
Or I could've bought a bigass SUV for the same if not more price and then pay ridiculous coin for gas.
Or we could all buy an econobox, never do anything but work and go home, and visit myhybrid.com and talk about our latest mods involving vinyl, electrical tape, and hi-efficiency batteries but our pocketbooks would be fatter.
03-17-2004, 08:56 PM
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Here's some fuel to the fire. This caught me off guard, but fortunately, I'm financially secure enough to be able to handle it, and wise enough not to overextend to get a car. I have been rent-poor and car-poor in the past, and it's not fun. So now I am very careful about how much I spend.
Anyway...
My "Tags" (License Plate) cost $781.00/year.
That's an expense that occurs within 7 days of buying the car here in Mississippi. I understand that in some places, you don't have these fees, but here it's based on the value of the vehicle, and it differs in different counties and cities. I got off easy, I'm told.
That's right - My license plate is the most expensive mod that will ever go on my Z.
Anyway...
My "Tags" (License Plate) cost $781.00/year.
That's an expense that occurs within 7 days of buying the car here in Mississippi. I understand that in some places, you don't have these fees, but here it's based on the value of the vehicle, and it differs in different counties and cities. I got off easy, I'm told.
That's right - My license plate is the most expensive mod that will ever go on my Z.
03-17-2004, 09:25 PM
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paid cash for the car. might of been a 911 but the z at 30k ...is the right car at the right price...done deal like the guy on tv cept i didn't need to ask the wife...
03-17-2004, 11:56 PM
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Those posts are weekly now.
Most of these kids are car crazy and rambling their **** here.
They give me a good laugh.
I remember those days. 18 and wanting that new hot car.
It's so cute. I feel like their big brother Tony.
I like the one where the kid says he got a job. 10 bucks an hour, 20 hours a week, Now I can afford the Z.
These kids have Zero credit and Zero down pymt.
What they do have is lots of imagination
Most of these kids are car crazy and rambling their **** here.
They give me a good laugh.
I remember those days. 18 and wanting that new hot car.
It's so cute. I feel like their big brother Tony.
I like the one where the kid says he got a job. 10 bucks an hour, 20 hours a week, Now I can afford the Z.
These kids have Zero credit and Zero down pymt.
What they do have is lots of imagination
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03-18-2004, 03:03 AM
#8
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im 19... i work everyday 9.5 hours. my only day off is on sundays, and i go to college (night classes). i couldnt get a loan out on my own, i have no credit so i had to cosign.
and thank god i did! geico wanted 12,000 a year for insurance!!
i work hard for my Z,im proud. in a year or so i should be starting my new job in air traffic control so ill have much more $
and thank god i did! geico wanted 12,000 a year for insurance!!
i work hard for my Z,im proud. in a year or so i should be starting my new job in air traffic control so ill have much more $
03-18-2004, 03:16 AM
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I spend 23-25 bucks a week alone on gas. I wash my car twice a week, that is 10 bucks total (quarter machine washes). Not to mention all the "mods" that have been done.
My old man tells me to, "Sit down a minute and lets figure how much you spend on your car." I am like forget it, I dont want to know, hehe....
I work part time, school full time, and yes the car breaks me. If I wasnt "parent funded" there is no way in hell I could have this car.
My old man tells me to, "Sit down a minute and lets figure how much you spend on your car." I am like forget it, I dont want to know, hehe....
I work part time, school full time, and yes the car breaks me. If I wasnt "parent funded" there is no way in hell I could have this car.
03-18-2004, 04:39 AM
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Well looking at those figures, I think they are conservative. Particulary the depreciation which is always the big killer.
I bought a car new 6 years ago at roughly the same price as a new Z. I paid cash so did not have to factor in leasing costs. My total came out a bit more and I only had one unexpected repair bill.
If you add in the lost opportunity costs compared with say house purchase the numbers really hurt.
But you only live once...
Gas in the US is a third of the price of most of the Western world, this can not last for ever, a 3.5 engine may not look very attractive in 5 years.
I bought a car new 6 years ago at roughly the same price as a new Z. I paid cash so did not have to factor in leasing costs. My total came out a bit more and I only had one unexpected repair bill.
If you add in the lost opportunity costs compared with say house purchase the numbers really hurt.
But you only live once...
Gas in the US is a third of the price of most of the Western world, this can not last for ever, a 3.5 engine may not look very attractive in 5 years.
03-18-2004, 05:46 AM
#11
Just out of curiosity, do you all think it's worth trying to get this thread made "sticky" so that it comes to the forefront, much like the "before you mod your car" thread? Might save those of us that care alot of typing responding to posts from guys with the gun loaded and pointed at their foot financially....Just a thought.
03-18-2004, 05:51 AM
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kcobean -
You're double-counting the price of the car:
Depreciation = purchase price - value of the car when you sell it. So you can't say that there is X depreciation cost in TCO which is above the purchase price of the vehicle.
Conversely, if you assume a scenario where you keep the car forever, there is no depreciation cost anymore, you just assume that you pay the sale price and never get any money back. Hence, depreciation cost essentially becomes the purchase price of the vehicle.
Jason
You're double-counting the price of the car:
Depreciation = purchase price - value of the car when you sell it. So you can't say that there is X depreciation cost in TCO which is above the purchase price of the vehicle.
Conversely, if you assume a scenario where you keep the car forever, there is no depreciation cost anymore, you just assume that you pay the sale price and never get any money back. Hence, depreciation cost essentially becomes the purchase price of the vehicle.
Jason
03-18-2004, 05:55 AM
#13
Originally posted by jimster716
aah yes. Tack on mods for ankle grabbing fun while numbers crunching.
Autocross every month plus practices...about $65/mo. Oil changes with Motul synthetic plus filter about $50 per 3k mile or every 2 months for me. Road course events at $120 per 4 times a year. So about $1560 to race per year. Events are never that close so that's extra gas you have to buy so figure $600 in fuel per year. So i'm over $2k per year to race at an amateur level.
Let's see here...about $5k in mods (thank god i don't pay for installation).
But it's the price you pay. I could easily also be paying $25-40 per week to play golf, still have to pay the gas to get there, pay for ***** since I'd probably lose 3-4 of them per round.
Or I could've bought a bigass SUV for the same if not more price and then pay ridiculous coin for gas.
Or we could all buy an econobox, never do anything but work and go home, and visit myhybrid.com and talk about our latest mods involving vinyl, electrical tape, and hi-efficiency batteries but our pocketbooks would be fatter.
aah yes. Tack on mods for ankle grabbing fun while numbers crunching.
Autocross every month plus practices...about $65/mo. Oil changes with Motul synthetic plus filter about $50 per 3k mile or every 2 months for me. Road course events at $120 per 4 times a year. So about $1560 to race per year. Events are never that close so that's extra gas you have to buy so figure $600 in fuel per year. So i'm over $2k per year to race at an amateur level.
Let's see here...about $5k in mods (thank god i don't pay for installation).
But it's the price you pay. I could easily also be paying $25-40 per week to play golf, still have to pay the gas to get there, pay for ***** since I'd probably lose 3-4 of them per round.
Or I could've bought a bigass SUV for the same if not more price and then pay ridiculous coin for gas.
Or we could all buy an econobox, never do anything but work and go home, and visit myhybrid.com and talk about our latest mods involving vinyl, electrical tape, and hi-efficiency batteries but our pocketbooks would be fatter.
Take care.
03-18-2004, 06:00 AM
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Great financial analysis, but it only covers a small part of the true financial "investment". If one added the cost of not taking the $ that is being spent to "own" the car and investing it in some long term form, the costs are huge. Take the out-of-pocket expense of ~ $32k and assume a 7% return over 30 years and you have a value of almost $250,000. If you're 20 now, thats your bank balance at 50. If you have real patience and wait it out until you're 65 the balance grows to almost $700,000!
Better yet, take that same $ and make a down payment on a condo or house and enjoy the leverage of the escalating home values. You leverage the increase in full value of the property against the small downpayment. BTW, for you that still live with mom or in a dorm room you can still do the house thing and rent it out and the return is even better.
Want to retire in your 40's - it's the only way other than robbing banks, selling drugs, getting a sweet inheritance or inventing Microsoft II and these modes have their associated risks.
All this by waiting only 5 years or driving a used Geo ;-) From that point on you can get back into the performance car world with a sweet bank balance and/or investment portfolio.
At 20 waiting 5 years is 25% of your life which seems like forever, but at 50 the world looks a lot different including not even remembering what you were doing at 20.
have fun!!
Better yet, take that same $ and make a down payment on a condo or house and enjoy the leverage of the escalating home values. You leverage the increase in full value of the property against the small downpayment. BTW, for you that still live with mom or in a dorm room you can still do the house thing and rent it out and the return is even better.
Want to retire in your 40's - it's the only way other than robbing banks, selling drugs, getting a sweet inheritance or inventing Microsoft II and these modes have their associated risks.
All this by waiting only 5 years or driving a used Geo ;-) From that point on you can get back into the performance car world with a sweet bank balance and/or investment portfolio.
At 20 waiting 5 years is 25% of your life which seems like forever, but at 50 the world looks a lot different including not even remembering what you were doing at 20.
have fun!!
03-18-2004, 06:02 AM
#15
Originally posted by Jason Bourne
kcobean -
You're double-counting the price of the car:
Depreciation = purchase price - value of the car when you sell it. So you can't say that there is X depreciation cost in TCO which is above the purchase price of the vehicle.
Conversely, if you assume a scenario where you keep the car forever, there is no depreciation cost anymore, you just assume that you pay the sale price and never get any money back. Hence, depreciation cost essentially becomes the purchase price of the vehicle.
Jason
kcobean -
You're double-counting the price of the car:
Depreciation = purchase price - value of the car when you sell it. So you can't say that there is X depreciation cost in TCO which is above the purchase price of the vehicle.
Conversely, if you assume a scenario where you keep the car forever, there is no depreciation cost anymore, you just assume that you pay the sale price and never get any money back. Hence, depreciation cost essentially becomes the purchase price of the vehicle.
Jason
You are absolutely right. Good catch. I've heard arguments that the car is a good "investment" because it is expected to hold it's value pretty well. That being said, it's important to at least recognize that the pure cost of being the owner of the "investment" for 5 years will cost about 9K, while that 9K isn't actually an "out of pocket cost." That's why I excluded the depreciation at the end of my post, just for analysis' sake. Because the insurance numbers are so conservative, it all balances out when you apply real figures in this category.
I would, say that the final analysis still holds true. Throw the depreciation factor away, and the cost of the car over 5 years is going to be about double or more the sale price of the vehicle.
03-18-2004, 06:30 AM
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AWESOME POST!!! I'll tell you what, I'm not one who's been contemplating if I can afford a Z or not because I've made prior investments for the long run, before indulging myself in sports car...But I'm much more well informed now, and even for someone like me who doesn't rush into things, I have an even better perspective on the trust cost of a car...
Thanks for your time and Post...This should be a STICKY...because this questions has definitely come up wayyyy to often lately...Good Job
Thanks for your time and Post...This should be a STICKY...because this questions has definitely come up wayyyy to often lately...Good Job
03-18-2004, 06:31 AM
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Same old adage, if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it! Too many people who should have different priorities are over extending themselves to buy this impractical "toy". Sure it's great fun to drive and a day at the track learning how to reach the car's potential with driving instruction is more fun than grown people should be allowed to have, but really, anybody who can't handle all the freakin expenses this car packs on your back would be way better off buying a used Honda Civic and putting money in the bank instead. Keep your imagination dreamin so that when you CAN really enjoy a sprts car, if the Z has proven itself over the long run, pick one up used and still have all the fun for half the price. Or by that time buy the next new sports car that is the heart trob of all of us motor heads at that time in the future. It's good to want, but delaying immediate gratification, I have found, gives you something to work towards. The old carrot at the end of the stick.
03-18-2004, 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by NY 350Z
im 19... i work everyday 9.5 hours. my only day off is on sundays, and i go to college (night classes). i couldnt get a loan out on my own, i have no credit so i had to cosign.
and thank god i did! geico wanted 12,000 a year for insurance!!
i work hard for my Z,im proud. in a year or so i should be starting my new job in air traffic control so ill have much more $
im 19... i work everyday 9.5 hours. my only day off is on sundays, and i go to college (night classes). i couldnt get a loan out on my own, i have no credit so i had to cosign.
and thank god i did! geico wanted 12,000 a year for insurance!!
i work hard for my Z,im proud. in a year or so i should be starting my new job in air traffic control so ill have much more $
I remember when I graduated college, became a naval officer and got my first paycheck. After rent, utilities and car payment, I had less money than when I worked part time at Red Lobster! Just something to think about.
