Help me Get a Sound deadening discount!
10-01-2005, 09:48 AM
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Help me Get a Sound deadening discount!
If anyone know's about second Skin audio products they know they are rated as one of THE BEST sound deadening and sound proofing products for the car.
I"m trying to get a nice little discount on my order for the Z threw a group buy and I think they just need one more order. Check here for details. http://secondskinaudio.com/forums/sh...6490#post16490 and just order from www.secondskinaudio.com, their b-stock products are supposed to be just as good as a-stock and are priced alot better.
I"ll be getting liquid deadener, closed cell sound absorber and "luxury liner" to really quiet down the wheel wells and hatch.
I"m trying to get a nice little discount on my order for the Z threw a group buy and I think they just need one more order. Check here for details. http://secondskinaudio.com/forums/sh...6490#post16490 and just order from www.secondskinaudio.com, their b-stock products are supposed to be just as good as a-stock and are priced alot better.
I"ll be getting liquid deadener, closed cell sound absorber and "luxury liner" to really quiet down the wheel wells and hatch.
Last edited by Badfish25; 10-01-2005 at 10:02 AM.
10-01-2005, 12:38 PM
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I give props to their Spectrum Products, I used about 3 gallons. I also used 3 rolls of their neoprene foam which works great but can be tricky to glue down and is susceptible to chaffing and ripping.
But personally I think the luxury liner is too heavy for the Z. I would recommend using a lighter open/closed cell foam or Jute product in combination with the Neoprene. My entire floor pan for instance is covered with layers of Spectrum, followed by a layer of open/closed-cell, followed by a layer of Overkill (neoprene). You can do the same thing for areas that have the room like the cubby and the trunk. Neoprene can also be bought cheaper on Ebay and you can get carious thicker sizes there.
Once you buy from Secondskin you will occassionally get e-mails about specials. Anthiny recently had one that was a better price than the B-stock for Spectrum sludge..
But personally I think the luxury liner is too heavy for the Z. I would recommend using a lighter open/closed cell foam or Jute product in combination with the Neoprene. My entire floor pan for instance is covered with layers of Spectrum, followed by a layer of open/closed-cell, followed by a layer of Overkill (neoprene). You can do the same thing for areas that have the room like the cubby and the trunk. Neoprene can also be bought cheaper on Ebay and you can get carious thicker sizes there.
Once you buy from Secondskin you will occassionally get e-mails about specials. Anthiny recently had one that was a better price than the B-stock for Spectrum sludge..
10-02-2005, 07:03 PM
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my plan was a layer of sludge then a layer of overkill...it is a closed cell neoprene, would a layer of closed cell foam really help more than just another layer of the overkill?
as far as the luxury liner is concerned I was only planning on using it in very noisy area's such as the rear tire well. would you by any chance have a link to where I might check out some "open/closed-cell"?
as far as the luxury liner is concerned I was only planning on using it in very noisy area's such as the rear tire well. would you by any chance have a link to where I might check out some "open/closed-cell"?
10-02-2005, 07:09 PM
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something like this maybe?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-x36-x-60-Hi-...QQcmdZViewItem
I wasn't really planning on layer foam on foam though, how did you attach your products?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-x36-x-60-Hi-...QQcmdZViewItem
I wasn't really planning on layer foam on foam though, how did you attach your products?
10-02-2005, 07:33 PM
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Yeah I know Overkill, I still have a roll or two left :-) It is closed cell foam about 1/8" thick. Haven't seen the link you posted before but there is (was) an e-bay seller that was selling the exact same closed sell as Overkill for about half price.
I did many months of research on the methodology behind noise supression. I also spent about 1k just on sound dampening and in the end I believe I have the quietest ride I could achieve with the least amount of added weight.
Foam on foam works best, if you have space. I used a few different products to adhere the foams and jute. None worked very well to be honest. I especially had a rough time with 3M spray products when it came to hotter months here in the desert they lost their adhesion. If you use 3M at least try a higher number like > 90..don't use 77 spray. Better advice would be to get a professional glue used in the car industry..I doubt it will be in a spray form though.
Here's my advice on everything I can think of if you need it...
There are three basic methods used: dampening, barrier, and absorbtion. Dampening is great for cancelling speaker ratting, and barrier is great for cancelling some noise from the tires/road. But you aren't going to notice a real difference until you introduce absorbtion. Composite Products like Luxury liner, extreme liner, B-Quiet V-Comp and L-comp excetera do just that. They sandwich a barrier like vinyl or lead between two absorbant layers (open cell foam). noise radiates through the foam and is partially blocked by the barrier layer. Sound waves that pass through the barrier and those that bounce back from the barrier are absorbed by the open cell foam.
--the only problem with Extreme composite products is they are very heavy and very expensive per sq ft.
So the best combination on a budget (and what I did) if you have the space would be a dampener (like Spectrum or Extreme Dynamat) directly on the sheet metal to add weight to the panels and improve sound quality and rattle-free ride. This would be followed by an open cell foam layer (or semi-open cell). I used Dynaliner for this but it is a bit thick so watch out below the carpeting. And then follow all of this up with a thin barrier foam like Neoprene (Overkill).
Easiest to build up layers to hardest ----
lower trunk
Cubby areas (cover up the open area leading out to the qtr panel which houses the seat blt tensioner)
below and behind seats
Rest of Floorpan
Inner door
Interior side panels
under hood (try Vibramat pieces)
exterior wheel wells
rear panels over wheel well
panels attached to strut brace
Jute can be substituted for the open cell foam. Outer wheel wells are best served with just Spectrum. Some of the interior panels have enough space behind them to put a layer of open cell with a layer of closed cell.
Think of your tires hitting the road as radiators of sound and try to build layers in areas that would be closest to this sound source (behind front kick panels, floorpan, front of door, cubby area, trunk, etc.)
I did many months of research on the methodology behind noise supression. I also spent about 1k just on sound dampening and in the end I believe I have the quietest ride I could achieve with the least amount of added weight.
Foam on foam works best, if you have space. I used a few different products to adhere the foams and jute. None worked very well to be honest. I especially had a rough time with 3M spray products when it came to hotter months here in the desert they lost their adhesion. If you use 3M at least try a higher number like > 90..don't use 77 spray. Better advice would be to get a professional glue used in the car industry..I doubt it will be in a spray form though.
Here's my advice on everything I can think of if you need it...
There are three basic methods used: dampening, barrier, and absorbtion. Dampening is great for cancelling speaker ratting, and barrier is great for cancelling some noise from the tires/road. But you aren't going to notice a real difference until you introduce absorbtion. Composite Products like Luxury liner, extreme liner, B-Quiet V-Comp and L-comp excetera do just that. They sandwich a barrier like vinyl or lead between two absorbant layers (open cell foam). noise radiates through the foam and is partially blocked by the barrier layer. Sound waves that pass through the barrier and those that bounce back from the barrier are absorbed by the open cell foam.
--the only problem with Extreme composite products is they are very heavy and very expensive per sq ft.
So the best combination on a budget (and what I did) if you have the space would be a dampener (like Spectrum or Extreme Dynamat) directly on the sheet metal to add weight to the panels and improve sound quality and rattle-free ride. This would be followed by an open cell foam layer (or semi-open cell). I used Dynaliner for this but it is a bit thick so watch out below the carpeting. And then follow all of this up with a thin barrier foam like Neoprene (Overkill).
Easiest to build up layers to hardest ----
lower trunk
Cubby areas (cover up the open area leading out to the qtr panel which houses the seat blt tensioner)
below and behind seats
Rest of Floorpan
Inner door
Interior side panels
under hood (try Vibramat pieces)
exterior wheel wells
rear panels over wheel well
panels attached to strut brace
Jute can be substituted for the open cell foam. Outer wheel wells are best served with just Spectrum. Some of the interior panels have enough space behind them to put a layer of open cell with a layer of closed cell.
Think of your tires hitting the road as radiators of sound and try to build layers in areas that would be closest to this sound source (behind front kick panels, floorpan, front of door, cubby area, trunk, etc.)
10-02-2005, 07:51 PM
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your experience is much appreciated! I dont' think I would have the patients to buy and test out $1000's worth of deading products..... When all my products come in I'm going to judge how heavy luxury liner really is combined with the 2 gallons of sludge. If the lux liner is indeed too heavy I will just cover everything with a layer of overkill and the louder area's in some closed cell foam and then overkill. the overkill is only like $19 for 20 sq ft anyway.
I can't beleive that Lux liner would weigh more than 2 lbs a sq ft, so 36 lbs. for the 18 ft i'll be using won't be a killer for me...I'm thinking a gallon of sludge will be about 25 lbs, so overall I think 90 lbs of deadening won't be TOO bad, I'm already weighed down that much with subs and amps.
For a street machine I can live with the added weight. I'll post pics and reviews when i get it all in. looks like the group buy might have the 15 orders it needed.
I can't beleive that Lux liner would weigh more than 2 lbs a sq ft, so 36 lbs. for the 18 ft i'll be using won't be a killer for me...I'm thinking a gallon of sludge will be about 25 lbs, so overall I think 90 lbs of deadening won't be TOO bad, I'm already weighed down that much with subs and amps.
For a street machine I can live with the added weight. I'll post pics and reviews when i get it all in. looks like the group buy might have the 15 orders it needed.
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10-02-2005, 08:18 PM
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Sounds like you have a good plan. let me know if you need any help or pics of wehat I've done.
A few things that may clear up confusion:
- Overkill IS closed cell foam. Closed cell foam is also referred to as Neoprene. It is very dense, not very spongy and you can't blow air through it with your mouth. Open cell foam is the exact opposite. it is lighter, less dense, spongy, and air will pass right through.
- Luxury liner if I remember right is about 1 to 1.5 lbs per sq ft. Most of the composites I looked into were between 1 and 2 lbs. Which in my opinion is too heavy if your going to do the floor pan, cubby area and trunk because it will likely require 25 to 35 sq ft to accomplish. Too much for a sports car IMO, unless you want to do a smaller area. Since you won't be able to put the liner in thin areas, or areas that are vertical (easily), you will also need a lot of Sludge (3 gals IMO) and/or a lot of dampening mat. I see this combination resulting in over 100lbs of added weight easily.
* Also try to cover all areas as best as possible, If you leave even a small area of the floor pan uncovered (or less covered) sound waves will come through at 50% of the db as they would have if you did nothing to the floorpan. I read this somewhere....
- Spectrum II is only about 9 lbs per gallon dry.. Sludge is probably 15 - 20 but ask Anthony. Their product is water based so as it dries it gets lighter. Also, Spectrum doesn't stick to painted surfaces..keep this in mind.
- Open cell, closed cell, and open/closed cell foams are VERY light. For instance, a whole roll of Overkill weighed only about a pound, as did Dynaliner and Tacmat. Adding Foam is nominal to weight.
- My setup was 50lbs complete.
--50 sq ft of Extreme dampener (very important if your pumping 500 W of bass. Covering mostly the rear trunk area, doors and around speakers. About 22 lbs weight
-- 3 gallons of Spectrum 2. About 24 lbs weight
-- 1.5 rolls overkill, 1 roll Dynaliner, 1 roll tacmat. About 3 lbs
-- Vibramat under the hood. About 1 lb
A few things that may clear up confusion:
- Overkill IS closed cell foam. Closed cell foam is also referred to as Neoprene. It is very dense, not very spongy and you can't blow air through it with your mouth. Open cell foam is the exact opposite. it is lighter, less dense, spongy, and air will pass right through.
- Luxury liner if I remember right is about 1 to 1.5 lbs per sq ft. Most of the composites I looked into were between 1 and 2 lbs. Which in my opinion is too heavy if your going to do the floor pan, cubby area and trunk because it will likely require 25 to 35 sq ft to accomplish. Too much for a sports car IMO, unless you want to do a smaller area. Since you won't be able to put the liner in thin areas, or areas that are vertical (easily), you will also need a lot of Sludge (3 gals IMO) and/or a lot of dampening mat. I see this combination resulting in over 100lbs of added weight easily.
* Also try to cover all areas as best as possible, If you leave even a small area of the floor pan uncovered (or less covered) sound waves will come through at 50% of the db as they would have if you did nothing to the floorpan. I read this somewhere....
- Spectrum II is only about 9 lbs per gallon dry.. Sludge is probably 15 - 20 but ask Anthony. Their product is water based so as it dries it gets lighter. Also, Spectrum doesn't stick to painted surfaces..keep this in mind.
- Open cell, closed cell, and open/closed cell foams are VERY light. For instance, a whole roll of Overkill weighed only about a pound, as did Dynaliner and Tacmat. Adding Foam is nominal to weight.
- My setup was 50lbs complete.
--50 sq ft of Extreme dampener (very important if your pumping 500 W of bass. Covering mostly the rear trunk area, doors and around speakers. About 22 lbs weight
-- 3 gallons of Spectrum 2. About 24 lbs weight
-- 1.5 rolls overkill, 1 roll Dynaliner, 1 roll tacmat. About 3 lbs
-- Vibramat under the hood. About 1 lb
10-03-2005, 12:43 PM
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There are quite a few posts here and in the sister 350 sites regarding applying dampeners. Not too many involving foam or liquids. I did find how-to's on all of this for other vehicles though. Run searches on google for the folowing products and the word "install" - B-Quiet, Fatmat, Stinger Roadkill, Brownbread, Deadbeat, Edead, R-block, Secondskin, Accumat, Dynamat. You will find everything you need to know by cruising around other forum sites: the best I found were Miata and Suburu..for some reason those sites seem to have a lot of members applying sound dampening.
10-03-2005, 03:54 PM
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great thanks! and did you all order from b-quiet itself? It seems like the 'B-Quiet Xtreme' is the best economical buy. Searched on ebay/pricegrabber, but seems straight from them is the best deal?
10-03-2005, 04:08 PM
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My suggestions if your just looking for sound vibration dampening (from your subs and mids) is to go with at least 50 sq ft of Extreme matting product (best deal you can find). If B-quiet is the best deal then you are all set.
If your going for road noise limiting, use about 30 sq ft extreme mat (trunk and doors), 2 gals of Spectrum (for floorpan, cubby, outer wells, and areas that are hard to apply mat), about 30 sqft of open cell foam, and about 40 sq ft of closed cell neoprene foam.
where you can get away with it) 1. Mat or liquid 2. followed by closed cell glued on top of open cell foam.
Use Closed cell in areas that are too thin to stuff in a combination.
If your going for road noise limiting, use about 30 sq ft extreme mat (trunk and doors), 2 gals of Spectrum (for floorpan, cubby, outer wells, and areas that are hard to apply mat), about 30 sqft of open cell foam, and about 40 sq ft of closed cell neoprene foam.
where you can get away with it) 1. Mat or liquid 2. followed by closed cell glued on top of open cell foam.
Use Closed cell in areas that are too thin to stuff in a combination.
10-03-2005, 05:30 PM
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"Extreme" isn't any particular product but a common name given by competitors to compete with the traditional Dynamat Extreme. Basically, a non-asphalt, elastomeric butyl mat that is covered by a thin layer of Aluminum.
Fatmat is at fatmat.com.
I used Dynamat Extreme for dampening. make a new post asking "who has used other mat products than Dynamat" and I'm sure you'll get loads of responses. I think if you go with the top of the line mat product from either B-quiet, Secondskin, Dynamat, or Fatmat you will be fine. Make sure it is not asphalt based, that it has the aluminum shield, that it is moldable and pliable without a heat gun, and that it has a good quality adhesive backing. Also, weight should be near .5 lbs per sq ft on average. may also want to check the thermal capacities if you will be mounting it in high heat spots.
A 50 sq ft pack should do just fine
Fatmat is at fatmat.com.
I used Dynamat Extreme for dampening. make a new post asking "who has used other mat products than Dynamat" and I'm sure you'll get loads of responses. I think if you go with the top of the line mat product from either B-quiet, Secondskin, Dynamat, or Fatmat you will be fine. Make sure it is not asphalt based, that it has the aluminum shield, that it is moldable and pliable without a heat gun, and that it has a good quality adhesive backing. Also, weight should be near .5 lbs per sq ft on average. may also want to check the thermal capacities if you will be mounting it in high heat spots.
A 50 sq ft pack should do just fine
10-03-2005, 08:48 PM
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Best sound deadening material on the market now is Hushmat, it was previously only contracted through General Motors but last summer began available in local shops. The stuff will stick to any surface, even the greasy, oily conditions they have in the factories unlike most competitors requiring extensive surface cleaning and still not sticking. After installed I could no longer hear any road noises through my car and with doors and windows shut standing outside you could barely hear my 5000 watt system thumping or rattling. http://www.hushmat.com/
Edit: Guess to help I shoulda posted the price. This was done to a 4 door sport compact wagon matting the floors, doors, dash and roof and putting a 2x4 inbetween the roof and headliner to give more support to stop the roof ripples. Supplies and instillation ran around $1100 after it was all done. I asked last time I was in talking about the Z and they said a full kit for Z should run around $700 installed.
Edit: Guess to help I shoulda posted the price. This was done to a 4 door sport compact wagon matting the floors, doors, dash and roof and putting a 2x4 inbetween the roof and headliner to give more support to stop the roof ripples. Supplies and instillation ran around $1100 after it was all done. I asked last time I was in talking about the Z and they said a full kit for Z should run around $700 installed.
Last edited by abyss; 10-03-2005 at 08:54 PM.
10-04-2005, 04:50 AM
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..I decided to go with b-quiet ultimate, but wasn't too smart in purchasing and lost $20 bucks not getting it off ebay! Well atleast I have the peace of mind of buying straight from the manufacturer! lol. Anyways, thanks for all the great info.
10-06-2005, 10:18 AM
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Just checked the combined shipping weight of all the deadening ordered. With all the boxes it's 52 lbs. Take out water weight of the sludge and it should be well under 50lbs. We'll see if I need another gallon of sludge or any dampening matt as well. A gallon of Sludge is ~ 14 lbs.
now, Where do you think the 18 sq ft of Lux liner would be best used? Floor pan or behind the seats to the wheel wells?
now, Where do you think the 18 sq ft of Lux liner would be best used? Floor pan or behind the seats to the wheel wells?
Last edited by Badfish25; 10-06-2005 at 10:20 AM.
10-06-2005, 10:25 AM
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Seems like you should be fine. Yep the Sludge is water based and should lighten up significantly.
Another avenue you may want to explore if you are serious about noise reduction is a foam combination of 1/4" open cell with 1/8" or 1/4" Closed cell glued on top. This would go over the areas you have applied sludge of Dynamat.
You can get the open cell here for about $2.30 a sq ft: http://www.soundcoat.com/catalog/soundfoam.htm
And you can get the closed cell Nepoprene from Secondskin (Overkill) or on Ebay for $1.50 per sq ft:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Closed-Cell-Neop...QQcmdZViewItem
*Both of these foams are very very light and should only add 3-5 lbs extra weight to your project overall
If your going to have your car torn apart to apply the sludge you might as well put the foam or additional dampening mat at that time. Believe me, I installed Dampening mat and Spectrum II and it did a good job reducing rattles, but it did next to nothing for road/tire noise. I did not get a reduction in road/tire noise until after installing FOAM.
Another avenue you may want to explore if you are serious about noise reduction is a foam combination of 1/4" open cell with 1/8" or 1/4" Closed cell glued on top. This would go over the areas you have applied sludge of Dynamat.
You can get the open cell here for about $2.30 a sq ft: http://www.soundcoat.com/catalog/soundfoam.htm
And you can get the closed cell Nepoprene from Secondskin (Overkill) or on Ebay for $1.50 per sq ft:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Closed-Cell-Neop...QQcmdZViewItem
*Both of these foams are very very light and should only add 3-5 lbs extra weight to your project overall
If your going to have your car torn apart to apply the sludge you might as well put the foam or additional dampening mat at that time. Believe me, I installed Dampening mat and Spectrum II and it did a good job reducing rattles, but it did next to nothing for road/tire noise. I did not get a reduction in road/tire noise until after installing FOAM.