Getting prepped for next year, suspension changes, tires etc. Help?!?!
11-29-2008, 03:19 PM
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Getting prepped for next year, suspension changes, tires etc. Help?!?!
Ok so with the last two seasons under my belt, I made it to 80% of the events and did very very well. In my NASA class I was fastest on street tires all but two events but always placing in the top 3-4.
I could never win against the 400whp STI or the Mini Cooper S (both on R comps)
My setup consists of
Eibach Sportline springs on stock shocks
350Evo Sways Med/Med
265/245 RE50 140 tread wear on stock touring 18's
SPC Camber and toe kit in the rear
Now the RE50's and the shocks + lack of alignment (i know I know) held me back.
I have a loose 2-3k budget but I do not like to waste money, but I need to win against these fools.
Wheels/Tires
The track is 30 min away and I dont have a way to trailer the car so I dont see how running R comps is possible, the GF isnt going to want to wake up at 8am on Sunday and drive my TL with a car full of Rcomps. So I have been looking at the Toyo 888 I have also run Azenis on my RX-7 which I though were so so. My DD rims are my TE37's on T1S toyos so I hope I can fit some good meat on my OEM 18s, or should I go for dedicated RPF1's in a wider rim (18") and a more desirable offset
Shocks/Suspension
Ok so the stockers have had 70k hard miles on them 30k on the Eibachs. The car sits perfect and the springs progressive wind makes them nice on the road. I really really REALLy dont want coilovers. So....What is the best shock to put in the corners. I am thinking Bilstein HD's will be good or Koni, I dont want 2k DA Bilsteins either I think thats waaay too much. Then it will be off to get the car aligned
here is my ride for sheitzngigglez and it was a fun run so please excuse the sidway action!
PRE SWAYS BTW!!!
I could never win against the 400whp STI or the Mini Cooper S (both on R comps)
My setup consists of
Eibach Sportline springs on stock shocks
350Evo Sways Med/Med
265/245 RE50 140 tread wear on stock touring 18's
SPC Camber and toe kit in the rear
Now the RE50's and the shocks + lack of alignment (i know I know) held me back.
I have a loose 2-3k budget but I do not like to waste money, but I need to win against these fools.
Wheels/Tires
The track is 30 min away and I dont have a way to trailer the car so I dont see how running R comps is possible, the GF isnt going to want to wake up at 8am on Sunday and drive my TL with a car full of Rcomps. So I have been looking at the Toyo 888 I have also run Azenis on my RX-7 which I though were so so. My DD rims are my TE37's on T1S toyos so I hope I can fit some good meat on my OEM 18s, or should I go for dedicated RPF1's in a wider rim (18") and a more desirable offset
Shocks/Suspension
Ok so the stockers have had 70k hard miles on them 30k on the Eibachs. The car sits perfect and the springs progressive wind makes them nice on the road. I really really REALLy dont want coilovers. So....What is the best shock to put in the corners. I am thinking Bilstein HD's will be good or Koni, I dont want 2k DA Bilsteins either I think thats waaay too much. Then it will be off to get the car aligned
here is my ride for sheitzngigglez and it was a fun run so please excuse the sidway action!
PRE SWAYS BTW!!!
11-29-2008, 05:51 PM
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I would first ditch the heavy touring rims and get the 18" RPF1s like you said. I'm personally running 18x9.5 +15 F and 18x10.5 +15 R and they only weigh ~18.5lbs. Pics are from yesterday's Buttonwillow track day.
11-29-2008, 06:23 PM
#4
phorbo, what size tires are you running on those wheels?
Personally I would go with the Bilstein HD's, but if you don't mind taking the time to adjust shocks for individual tracks then the Koni's would be great also. My PERSONAL opinion is if you aren't going to take full advantage of the adjustability, then dont' get them. The HD's are tuned for factory or near factory spring rates and they will last forever according to what I've read pretty much everywhere. It's what I plan on getting for my car.
Wider wheels and tires are probably the simplest and best upgrade anybody can do, so aim towards the high end of your budget and do it all!
Personally I would go with the Bilstein HD's, but if you don't mind taking the time to adjust shocks for individual tracks then the Koni's would be great also. My PERSONAL opinion is if you aren't going to take full advantage of the adjustability, then dont' get them. The HD's are tuned for factory or near factory spring rates and they will last forever according to what I've read pretty much everywhere. It's what I plan on getting for my car.
Wider wheels and tires are probably the simplest and best upgrade anybody can do, so aim towards the high end of your budget and do it all!
11-29-2008, 06:36 PM
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^
I'm running Falken 452s 245/40/18 F and 275/40/18 R. I know many people are running non-staggered setups for the track but this is my daily driver and I got a super good deal on the tires.
I notice you're running Kumho XS and I'm hearing good things about them. Those might be my next tires for both street/track use but they're still so new and sizes and availability are so limited. How do you like them so far?
I'm running Falken 452s 245/40/18 F and 275/40/18 R. I know many people are running non-staggered setups for the track but this is my daily driver and I got a super good deal on the tires.
I notice you're running Kumho XS and I'm hearing good things about them. Those might be my next tires for both street/track use but they're still so new and sizes and availability are so limited. How do you like them so far?
11-29-2008, 06:59 PM
#6
^
I'm running Falken 452s 245/40/18 F and 275/40/18 R. I know many people are running non-staggered setups for the track but this is my daily driver and I got a super good deal on the tires.
I notice you're running Kumho XS and I'm hearing good things about them. Those might be my next tires for both street/track use but they're still so new and sizes and availability are so limited. How do you like them so far?
I'm running Falken 452s 245/40/18 F and 275/40/18 R. I know many people are running non-staggered setups for the track but this is my daily driver and I got a super good deal on the tires.
I notice you're running Kumho XS and I'm hearing good things about them. Those might be my next tires for both street/track use but they're still so new and sizes and availability are so limited. How do you like them so far?
Below is a copy/paste of a review I wrote on them in another thread.
I'm using the XS's now.
I upgraded from 225/45/17 MX's on all 4 corners to 275/35/18 on all 4 corners.
It's hard to compare them since the XS's are nearly 2 inches wider per tire. I obviously have LOADS more grip, the wheel doesn't "walk" back to center when it's unwinding like it did with the MX's, so I'm guessing the sidewall is stiffer.
The tire "talks" to you pretty well at the limit, but it's pretty quiet for the most part. I have a little bit of vibration (rumbling) from the tread blocks at speeds under 15mph or so, but don't notice anything at normal driving speeds. They definitely get better once warmed up, but they are still better than anything you NEED for the street even when at normal temps.
Road driving... I live in the mountains. You think Deal's Gap is good? I can show you better. I've been to Deal's Gap multiple times, sometimes on accident because I happen to end up in the area on my mountain drives. That being said, these tires are stupid sticky for road driving. Nobody needs this much grip for backroads. I can take corners SO fast that if there happened to be a stopped car around one of the many blind corners I would be totally screwed. I can enter a corner I'm unfamiliar with and have the wrong line for, turn the wheel, push the brakes, and they almost never even squeel. Definitely don't slide. But, I'm running 275's on all 4 corners. Your mileage may vary. A friend of mine has a Lotus Elise with RE-01R's (215 front, 245 rear), I was able to keep up with him on 90% of a VERY tight backroad. He also has track experience.
Track driving. I've been to VIR Full Course with these tires vs. my previous setup and the only difference was the tries, no suspension mods. It behaved the same as with the MX's, but I was going a lot faster. My self timing clocked me at 2:27 seconds and I felt VERY VERY consistent during that session. It took me a couple of sessions to get used to my increased pace, but it felt like a better version of my old MX's. They definitely hold the heat as long as you don't have them squeeling around every corner. I got the front tires a little greasy from trying to outdrive them a couple times. I just slowed it down to my safe pace and they were back to sticky a couple turns later. Very predictable in high speed corners (100mph+ up the Uphill S's and probably about the same through Horse Shoe). As long as you don't drive stupid and overheat the tires, they can take anything you throw at them.
They handle great in the rain. I have never had a pucker factor moment so far. I've used them down to 24 degree temps and they are like rocks until they warm up. I can roll on the gas in 2nd gear and light them up when they are really cold.
I highly approve of them. I would really like to compare them to some of the current tires regarded as being the BEST. Like the RE-01R, Direzza, and whatever else is popular. I haven't done a lot of tire research because the MX's were recommended to me by the vast majority of people I track with so I just got them and didn't ask questions. Then this last time I went to buy them again and found out they were on backorder and probably being discontinued so I went with their replacement the XS since I was happy with the MX's.
Like I said though, take this with a pinch of salt because I went from 225's to 275's so the grip comparison is weak since the added rubber skews the results. Overall I am stoked with the tires and would absolutely buy them again.
I upgraded from 225/45/17 MX's on all 4 corners to 275/35/18 on all 4 corners.
It's hard to compare them since the XS's are nearly 2 inches wider per tire. I obviously have LOADS more grip, the wheel doesn't "walk" back to center when it's unwinding like it did with the MX's, so I'm guessing the sidewall is stiffer.
The tire "talks" to you pretty well at the limit, but it's pretty quiet for the most part. I have a little bit of vibration (rumbling) from the tread blocks at speeds under 15mph or so, but don't notice anything at normal driving speeds. They definitely get better once warmed up, but they are still better than anything you NEED for the street even when at normal temps.
Road driving... I live in the mountains. You think Deal's Gap is good? I can show you better. I've been to Deal's Gap multiple times, sometimes on accident because I happen to end up in the area on my mountain drives. That being said, these tires are stupid sticky for road driving. Nobody needs this much grip for backroads. I can take corners SO fast that if there happened to be a stopped car around one of the many blind corners I would be totally screwed. I can enter a corner I'm unfamiliar with and have the wrong line for, turn the wheel, push the brakes, and they almost never even squeel. Definitely don't slide. But, I'm running 275's on all 4 corners. Your mileage may vary. A friend of mine has a Lotus Elise with RE-01R's (215 front, 245 rear), I was able to keep up with him on 90% of a VERY tight backroad. He also has track experience.
Track driving. I've been to VIR Full Course with these tires vs. my previous setup and the only difference was the tries, no suspension mods. It behaved the same as with the MX's, but I was going a lot faster. My self timing clocked me at 2:27 seconds and I felt VERY VERY consistent during that session. It took me a couple of sessions to get used to my increased pace, but it felt like a better version of my old MX's. They definitely hold the heat as long as you don't have them squeeling around every corner. I got the front tires a little greasy from trying to outdrive them a couple times. I just slowed it down to my safe pace and they were back to sticky a couple turns later. Very predictable in high speed corners (100mph+ up the Uphill S's and probably about the same through Horse Shoe). As long as you don't drive stupid and overheat the tires, they can take anything you throw at them.
They handle great in the rain. I have never had a pucker factor moment so far. I've used them down to 24 degree temps and they are like rocks until they warm up. I can roll on the gas in 2nd gear and light them up when they are really cold.
I highly approve of them. I would really like to compare them to some of the current tires regarded as being the BEST. Like the RE-01R, Direzza, and whatever else is popular. I haven't done a lot of tire research because the MX's were recommended to me by the vast majority of people I track with so I just got them and didn't ask questions. Then this last time I went to buy them again and found out they were on backorder and probably being discontinued so I went with their replacement the XS since I was happy with the MX's.
Like I said though, take this with a pinch of salt because I went from 225's to 275's so the grip comparison is weak since the added rubber skews the results. Overall I am stoked with the tires and would absolutely buy them again.
Do you think you could fit a 275/305 combo on your Enkei's? That is what I want, but I don't think it will fit with those +15 offsets without running stupid amounts of camber. I'm not a tire stretch junkie, I want to fit the most tire I can on a properly sized wheel with camber that works on the track.
11-29-2008, 07:55 PM
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Do you think you could fit a 275/305 combo on your Enkei's? That is what I want, but I don't think it will fit with those +15 offsets without running stupid amounts of camber. I'm not a tire stretch junkie, I want to fit the most tire I can on a properly sized wheel with camber that works on the track.
I have a mild drop with Hotchkis springs with rear fenders rolled and I'm almost positive that any tires >=295 for the 18x10.5 +15 rims will rub on moderate/hard cornering due to the aggressive offsets. It might be possible if you run 18x9.5 +15 all around though 305s might be too much rubber for that size rim.
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11-30-2008, 07:51 AM
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yeah i am going to look for the RPF1's
I am glad you guys are agreeing on the Bilstein HD's they are priced right and I hear nothing but amazing things about their qaulity.
Is there any consensus on the stickiest tire that you can legally drive to the track?
I am also running Motul brake fluid and some HAwk street pads, would there be a worthwhile upgrade to do stainless steel braided lines and maybe a better pad? I really like Axxis Ultimates
I am glad you guys are agreeing on the Bilstein HD's they are priced right and I hear nothing but amazing things about their qaulity.
Is there any consensus on the stickiest tire that you can legally drive to the track?
I am also running Motul brake fluid and some HAwk street pads, would there be a worthwhile upgrade to do stainless steel braided lines and maybe a better pad? I really like Axxis Ultimates
11-30-2008, 07:55 AM
#9
Nitto NT-01R, Toyo R888, or Toyo RA-1 should be the stickiest DOT legal tires as far as I know. Maybe the Kumho V700, I think that's legal.
So far I've been using Hawk HP+ pads all around and they are just barely up to the task (non Brembo). I'm looking to upgrade to CarboTech XP12's next in the front and keep HP+ in the rear. A track buddy of mine with an '06 350Z uses that combo and is very happy with it.
I've always been told SS lines improve feel, but I've not done that mod yet.
EDIT: Just looked up tire sizes for the V700, very very limited. Also a 50 treadwear, but street legal it says. Also says that it MUST be shaved before dry use. That's pretty serious.
So far I've been using Hawk HP+ pads all around and they are just barely up to the task (non Brembo). I'm looking to upgrade to CarboTech XP12's next in the front and keep HP+ in the rear. A track buddy of mine with an '06 350Z uses that combo and is very happy with it.
I've always been told SS lines improve feel, but I've not done that mod yet.
EDIT: Just looked up tire sizes for the V700, very very limited. Also a 50 treadwear, but street legal it says. Also says that it MUST be shaved before dry use. That's pretty serious.
Last edited by Beau; 11-30-2008 at 07:59 AM.
11-30-2008, 08:44 AM
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why dont you get some Nismo T2 springs and some Konis valved for the rates? those Eibachs are pretty weak for a track application depending on the tire.
Import Image racing sells RPF1s for around 1150 bucks-ish.
just out of curiosity whats done to the brakes?
Import Image racing sells RPF1s for around 1150 bucks-ish.
just out of curiosity whats done to the brakes?
11-30-2008, 09:03 AM
#11
I would say +1 on a wheel and tire upgrade and better shocks. I'm currently running 18x10.5 RPF-1s all around with 285/30 Kumho V710s. It's a very very sticky setup. You would probably to better going with 18x9.5 all around and the Toyo R888 (I don't think the 18x10.5 will fit in the front without a-arms). I've heard alot of good things about those tires and they will still allow you to drive on them to and from the track, and the non staggered setup will allow you to rotate them. Here are 2 pics of my setup.
11-30-2008, 09:34 AM
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BTW how do you go to the track and then put your slicks on? Do you trailer? do they fit in the Z???
11-30-2008, 09:55 AM
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friends/family/whoever-I-can-shanghai-into-it tote my tires to/from autox's, not willing to take the Z out on a track just yet, id rather sell it for a dedicated racer....GTA stock car, IT, SM, whatever...if I were going to get into road racing. just dont have the cash flow right now. You can make trailers for the Z though, BPRacer on here has one but it was put on the car by first350. Mike Cavanaugh also has one. just ask around. They arent uncommon with autoxers though, and first350 drove from Washington state to nationals in Kansas and back with it so they hold up too, its a very good option for someone without the power of persuasion ^_^ ...or family with pickups nearby
If youre gonna get some Konis/Bilsteins and have them revalved ask the shock builder to pair the shocks with a set of Eibach or Whiteline race springs with appropriate rates.
btw Enkei makes 18x10 RPF1s with a +38 offset...you can use spacers to adjust out to around a +25 offset that'll let ya fit most the huge sizes. they also make NT-03M's you can get in 18x10.5+30 offset that would work, couple pounds heavier than the RPF1s but nothing noticeable.
Last edited by ke0ki2k; 11-30-2008 at 10:51 AM.
11-30-2008, 12:45 PM
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You can make trailers (hitches) for the Z though, BPRacer on here has one but it was put on the car by first350. Mike Cavanaugh also has one. just ask around. They arent uncommon with autoxers though, and first350 drove from Washington state to nationals in Kansas and back with it so they hold up too, its a very good option for someone without the power of persuasion ^_^ ...or family with pickups nearby
For shocks to use with the Eibachs, look at T.C.Kline Racing's adjustable Konis. They would make a nice, competitive-as-possible combo with the Eibachs, a BIG improvement!
I have driven the Kumho V710's to local events many times, they would do just fine if you had to go that route. I wouldn't drive them every day, and I wouldn't want to drive them to the event on a rainy day, but if you are without another way to get them there, they will get you to the event, turn fast times, and get you home no problem.
11-30-2008, 12:54 PM
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^^^ I have been rereading your post and I cant tell. Are you saying the Eibachs are good? or are NOT good for my auto-Xing.
Would I be best buying Bilstein coilovers PS10's and sell my Eibachs? will the bilsteins still allow me to go as low as I am now?
Would I be best buying Bilstein coilovers PS10's and sell my Eibachs? will the bilsteins still allow me to go as low as I am now?
11-30-2008, 12:57 PM
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...Says the guy on stock springs and off-road ride height!
Trailer hitches are available from several sources, even thru Uhaul, just do a search on this site. But read the threads about reinforcement of the bumper, as I feel that's pretty necessary IMO! Still, makes things a lot easier to get to the events, and you can buy a cheapo trailer from Harbor Freight for a couple hundred bucks.
For shocks to use with the Eibachs, look at T.C.Kline Racing's adjustable Konis. They would make a nice, competitive-as-possible combo with the Eibachs, a BIG improvement!
I have driven the Kumho V710's to local events many times, they would do just fine if you had to go that route. I wouldn't drive them every day, and I wouldn't want to drive them to the event on a rainy day, but if you are without another way to get them there, they will get you to the event, turn fast times, and get you home no problem.
Trailer hitches are available from several sources, even thru Uhaul, just do a search on this site. But read the threads about reinforcement of the bumper, as I feel that's pretty necessary IMO! Still, makes things a lot easier to get to the events, and you can buy a cheapo trailer from Harbor Freight for a couple hundred bucks.
For shocks to use with the Eibachs, look at T.C.Kline Racing's adjustable Konis. They would make a nice, competitive-as-possible combo with the Eibachs, a BIG improvement!
I have driven the Kumho V710's to local events many times, they would do just fine if you had to go that route. I wouldn't drive them every day, and I wouldn't want to drive them to the event on a rainy day, but if you are without another way to get them there, they will get you to the event, turn fast times, and get you home no problem.
I was told by local racers that by driving R comp slicks to the even (25 miles there, 25 miles back) that they would chunk and denigrate. They where talking about Hoosiers at the time
11-30-2008, 01:17 PM
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Eibachs are a good dual purpose, not-too-serious autocross/track spring. They are made to be comfortable, look badass, and increase the stiffness a little but not too much. They are a compromise. If your emphasis is on street ride, they are probably just fine. The next step up would be something like the Bilstein PSS10, which have a little more adjustability, a bit stiffer springrate, and would offer more competitiveness IMO. (I don't know the Eibach's springrates, so this is just an educated guess based on what I have observed.) The next step beyond that would be some race coilovers with custom springrates, which are another step up in cost, complexity, and assuming you selected more trackworthy springrates, a step down in street ride quality. The balance there swings away from street ride and towards track competitiveness. Not to say it would be miserable on the street, just not as comfy as the Eibach/Koni or Bilstein PSS10 combo.
I have driven Kumhos and Hoosiers both on the street for upwards of 100 miles to events in the past. Not saying it's optimal, and always worried about the extra heat cycles hardening the compound a little more quickly, but they did just fine. The people warning about them chunking by simply driving them on the street don't know what they are talking about, IMO.
I have driven Kumhos and Hoosiers both on the street for upwards of 100 miles to events in the past. Not saying it's optimal, and always worried about the extra heat cycles hardening the compound a little more quickly, but they did just fine. The people warning about them chunking by simply driving them on the street don't know what they are talking about, IMO.
11-30-2008, 03:10 PM
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I would say +1 on a wheel and tire upgrade and better shocks. I'm currently running 18x10.5 RPF-1s all around with 285/30 Kumho V710s. It's a very very sticky setup. You would probably to better going with 18x9.5 all around and the Toyo R888 (I don't think the 18x10.5 will fit in the front without a-arms). I've heard alot of good things about those tires and they will still allow you to drive on them to and from the track, and the non staggered setup will allow you to rotate them. Here are 2 pics of my setup.
11-30-2008, 03:20 PM
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Well there is a local racer up north that has two sets of Kumo 710's in a 275/18 setup front and rear, and they are only one track day used for 350 for 4. I think I will buy two sets and just drive to the track.
If it rains then I will just drive on my street tires
And I think I am going to get the Bilstein HD's and have them revalved if need be......and how will I know this?
Eibach Sportlines F/R 384/421
If it rains then I will just drive on my street tires
And I think I am going to get the Bilstein HD's and have them revalved if need be......and how will I know this?
Eibach Sportlines F/R 384/421