I have already upgraded my Brembos to SS lines, and Motul 600 fluid with Ferado DS2500 pads. My braking power on the street and especially at the track isn't near as good as I would like and I am strongly considering upgrading to the TCE Wilwood W6A Plus 3 kit front and rear. My brakes are transmitting so much heate into the calipers/rotors that I am having issues with boiling the fluid but also the heat. The pads havn't failed yet, but I am getting a mushy pedal when my brakes get extremly hot. I have bled the lines a ton and it isn't that. I might have found the limits of my Brembos.

Another friend told me I could buy the Stoptech Rotor upgrade and get better pads and that would help, but for how long at the cost of $1000 to do that upgrade? I could just spend another $1500 after selling my brembos and have a big BBK 14" system on my car and be done with it.

What do you guys think with the stock Brembos? We have a guy that has the Wilwood kit, same kit but not the W6A calipers and his car stops damn good and his brakes feel tight!

 

before I would do any system upgrade, I would try a set of pure track pads. Something like the Hawk HT-10, or Carbotech XP12/10 combination. The Brembo system is pretty good. Not to mention that actual stopping POWER is provided by the tires. The ability to repeat it consistantly is provided by the brake system.

 

Yeah, try just pads first (skip 2pc rotors for now). Much cheaper. Buy this guy's front Carbotechs and get some rear CTs to match.
https://my350z.com/forum/7379011-post44.html

 

Thanks Marty. Any recommendations on rotors for my brembos that will take the abuse? I see Stoptech Aero 2 piece rotors, but see no prices so I requested some.

I pretty much made up my mind on the Carbotech if I stay with the Brembos.

 

have you tried ti backing plates as well? i belive the rbf 600 fluid is a good track day fluid, but not a great dedicated race scenario beating setup. maybe look into endless race fluid if you are boiling the motul. the ti backing plates will helps as well to keep the temps in the rotors and pads instead of the fluid. endless fluid is used in F1 and enduarnce racing as well as the recent 24hrs of "the ring" race a couple weeks ago.

regarding rotors, i think stoptech make some nice ones. any 2pc well thought out floating design is by far superior to the oe setup-which i know you already know.

I have a set of front endless 2pc rotors brand new for sale if you are interested in staying with the brembos though

 

I have them, just haven't installed those just yet as I just got them. Trying to decide right now which way I am going to go. If I get the Wilwood W6A calipers, it;s going to be even closer fit than this was. See the pics. This is a test fit of my wheel on a BSL6 calipers and 14" rotor setup from TCE.









And the question....W6A needs 1/8 more clearance by the math.

 

wait, so your running street tires and over cooking your fluid?

have you taken rotor temps to see what your brakes are actually going though? this would help greatly with your pad choice as well. just an example, too much cooling for the rotors can sometime be a bad thing.

humm, i havent seen that happen before. maybe if you were running r comps or slicks, but street tires i havent seen overpower the brembo system. hell, even grand am koni porsche teams are supposed to use oem calipers.

i did have the ti backing plates installed though from the begining.

anywho, unless you are running slicks, i think the oe brembo setup works fine. i used to run advan a048's with endless fluid and pads; not even 2pc rotors at that point and my brakes were fine. i understand differnt tracks have different demands, but from the ones i have run (cal speeway, buttonwillow, streets of wlliow, willow springs) i have never had brake failure like your describing.


not too big of a fan of willwood, but that is all just personal experience and preference.

 

better fluid would be the first thing I look into, followed by better tires

 

After a cool down lap, my calipers were at 600~ degrees, and the rotors were at 900~. So yea, they were hot.

H2R here has a long straight, that I end up to 100+ mph on, and then need to slow down to basically do a u-turn doing around 30 mph or so. Then another long sweeper of about 90 mph and again slow down to about 20 mph.

 

Motul 600 is good fluid. What else would you recommend?

 

Endless RF650

 

^+1 it is used in many euro enduro races as well as f1

 

I will echo the comments on pads, but I have couple other suggestions for you and some of it has nothing to do with what type of brakes you have.

First off, your brakes are probably fine for now. It sounds like your pads might need an upgrade, but you have to realize that when you use a the car for the track and the street, you are not going to get race type bite from your pads unless you use an agressive pad. Those types of pads will tear up your rotors quickly and wear faster, too.

The other thing to consider is how often and how hard you brake. Before you spend a fortune on brakes, take a good hard look at what you do. Try making some adjustments by braking further back and smoother. Remember tresh hold (sp) braking is only a benefit when passing someone by out braking them into the corner. If you do that every lap, you are working way too hard and stressing your equipment way too much. Most people don't consider how much time they really do spend on the brakes. If you consider that aspect, I bet you'll be shocked at how low the % of time really is.

Most every student I have at the track comes into a corner after a long straight WAY too hot and with a really poor turn entry. Then they ask the brakes to save them...which some set ups will; but at a cost. They wear their brakes MUCH faster, heat them much higher then they need to and are slower out of the turn, which makes their laps speed/time suffer. Plus, last time I checked, I never went faster while on the brakes.

It seems they are so intent on the braking part of what they are doing that they forget the fact that they will pass more cars and have better lap times when they carry more speed into and through a corner and pick up the throttle earlier than the other guy. This lends itself to the secondary thing that they need to deal with, which has nothing to do with brakes; their visual skills. They focus so hard on the braking zone and loose sight of the big picture, the apex. I have found that when I have my students get their eyes up and look much further than they are used to, they are not as stressed/focused on their braking and actually carry more speed through corners because they don't have to slow things down so much for their brains to process what is happening. Try it..it really works!

If you are already doing that and are that good of a driver, plus you are going to track your car often as well as use it on the street, I actually would encourage you to get a 14" big brake kit from Stoptech because of their ease of use. Changing the pads is so easy it will amaze you. You can pop in your track pads and take off in no time. Once done and the car cools off, you can pop your street pads back in and you are off. If you are swaping track wheels and tires for your track days, it will add 5 min per corner...that's it! The other thing is that the Stoptech system is set up and balanced much better for what you are doing. Go to Stoptech's site and read about their product. I have the 14" big brake kit on my Z and it out brakes a buddy of mine who has a 2005 Porsche GT3. Once you drive a car with this set up, I think you will agree.

From the sound of things, I would take small steps and utilize what you have. I think that once you master the basics and refine your driving style, you will improve your skills to the point that you will need race condition equipment rather than want more race condition equipment. Fruthermore, I would highly suggest you get a qualified and proven instructor in your right seat. Let him/her give you an honest evaluation of your driving. I mean everything you do, not just your car control. You will get 10x's the return on your money and will become a much better driver. I say this because I see more guys put thousands into their car to make them more capable at the track, but not one dime on the most important part of the car...the driver.

I had one student who just did not believe me so we did what I call the Days of Thunder test. I let him do 5 laps any way he wanted. I told him to simply put together the fastest laps he could and we would count the best of the five. And I gave him 2 laps to warm up both him and the car. I said nothing during the laps. Then, I took him out and did 10 laps showing him what I wanted him to do at each part of the track and came in for some track map work and discussion. We then went out for 1 warm up lap and then I talked him through 5 laps where he did EXACTLY what I told him. Other than his first lap, all 4 of the remainders were faster than his fastest lap...by no less than 2 1/4 seconds. His fastest lap was a full 4 3/4 seconds faster! After another 12 laps of working only on his visual skills, he dropped another second and was amazed at how everything seemed so slow and easy now. He was now starting to get it.

Now, I am NOT trying to speak about my driving or coaching abilities. I am trying to show you that having someone who knows what to do helps with getting the basics down right and will most likely make you that much better without changing a thing on your car. Hell, I always ask for other instuctors to right seat me so I can make sure I am not forming bad habits or getting lazy without realizing it. In fact, I look forward to their critiques and welcome their constructive comments.

 

^^ Thank you for such a great post. Very informative. I have been racing for a while now, and now in the Red groups whenever I go to the track. I think right now I just do not have the right combo and have decided to not go with a BBK and make the Brembos work. Get different dedicated track pads, a set of rotors for track use and leave my daily stuff alone and swap it out when I go to the track. If this doesn't work, then I will see spending the big bucks to get the BBK.

Thanks!

 

the real deal is castrol srf.. but.. damn!
the wet boiling point of the endless is 424F. for the castrol 518 (wet)...
you do the math.

"cheap" stuff like ate blue has a boiling point of 396 (wet) (20$ for a full flush 2 liter)
and midrange like RBF600 421 (~50$ for a full flush 1.5 liter).

honestly the endless looks like a lot of marketing and nothing special

the endless is 100$ for a full flush (1.5 liter)
and the castrol SRF about 170$ (2 liter)

and unless you change brake fluid for every event, you need a high wet boiling point.. the dry doesn't matter.

 

Motul 600 is an average fluid actually - good performance when new (and fresh), but it's more hygroscopic than many other fluids (moreso because it comes in a plastic container).

Dry boiling point is actually very, very important, especially to those of us who are **** about fluid and don't wait years between changes.

 

I've always used ATE Super Blue or the type 200. Never had any issues and it's pretty cheap and easily available for me.


I like Carbotech's pads, but I worked my way up their product line. I just wasn't getting the stopping power/ pad life I was paying for. They work great on lighter cars though, and very rotor friendly.


Keep in mind your tires are doing most of the stopping. A good set of R compounds will be the best braking upgrade. That and my brake stuff that's for sale!

 

Yep Yep...hurry up so I can get it.

 

Endless market ploy? please.



What comes std on the GT3 cup cars? not castrol

Im not saying castrol is crap or anything, which would be stupid because it has been a staple in the racing world as a top brake fluid, but other things must be considered. Ever considered that these "race" brake fluids are more-so hydroscopic than street fluids? castrol seems to drop significantly when you get any water in it, thus further acknowledgeing your point of changing fluids after every race, which you will do LESS with the Endless fluid.



also, regarding f1, only 2 fluid brands are used, one being endless, the other, brembo lcf 600. castrol not even on the scene.

but i dunno, it all is a marketing ploy with those million dollar cars you know...nothing at all that just is meant to work.

edit: o yeah. their gt2 sponsored cars finished first and third in the 24hrs of le mans from Risi Competizione.

 

ok man.. my fault. castrol SRF WAS the choice and WAS changed after every race. that WAS my knowledge. better in this way... it's even cheaper.

*edit* your chart mention pads.. not fluid. but after a little research... yes, you're right. they switched from castrol SRF to endless, like they switched from pagid pads to endless pads.

the OP might try... 100$ in fluid at the end isn't excessive and try to bleed it after every track event. but in that case I think is the tire/pads combo that really doesn't work.