BSP Legal Camber, let's talk
03-22-2011, 01:20 PM
#41
I don't know why they care if a driver makes a full-conversion when using parts between the different trim levels of the same car. "Sure you can use the VLSD from an enthusiast, but we want you to also install cruise control and HID's too."
I have visions of Rain Man sitting on the SEB..."Gotta add HIDs. Gotta add HID's. Gotta add HID's."
But what do HID's have to do with anything?
"Gotta add HIDs. Gotta add HID's. Gotta add HID's."
We trailer-in race tires for our street cars that are good for ~1.5-2 seconds over....street tires.....and scrutinize things like cruise control, head lights, and metal bushings that are good for ~0.0-0.00005372 seconds.
I have visions of Rain Man sitting on the SEB..."Gotta add HIDs. Gotta add HID's. Gotta add HID's."
But what do HID's have to do with anything?
"Gotta add HIDs. Gotta add HID's. Gotta add HID's."
We trailer-in race tires for our street cars that are good for ~1.5-2 seconds over....street tires.....and scrutinize things like cruise control, head lights, and metal bushings that are good for ~0.0-0.00005372 seconds.
You guys are looking at this with too narrow of a focus. Remember, the rules are for ALL cars, not just 350zs, and opening them up often times has far unintended consequences.
Z1Only, you're referring to stock rules in terms of the updating items across packages. The rules are designed to prevent people from building a frankencar in stock. You can make changes, but you have to do it as if from the factory. Even then, people still try to push the limits. If I could take a base 350z, and add a VLSD, then I would have the lightest 350z possible in stock trim, but Nissan didn't make that car. You had to have HIDs, and TCS and VLSD if you went from Base to Enthusiast. You pick your car, you pick to choose what model you buy, and you get what options that came with from the factory.
Grant, you can down talk autocross all you want, and prepping the car for autocross is often times much different than the track, but complaining that the rules for this sport, don't fit with your other sport, is of your choice. You can choose which one is more important for you and build for that.
I choose autocross. Would I love to track my car? Yes, I get a rush on the track like no other, but I've also wrecked a car on the track. Autocross fits my budget and my competitive streak in a far more budget manageable way than tracking the car could.
03-22-2011, 01:37 PM
#42
3,188 lb (1,446 kg) (Base)
3,197 lb (1,450 kg) (Enth)
In all but a select few classes, the rules don't care about race tires that are worth whole seconds, but instead go to great lengths to scrutinize petty stuff.
Last edited by Z1NONLY; 03-22-2011 at 01:41 PM.
03-22-2011, 02:07 PM
#44
Race tires are the most advantageous modification available and they are allowed almost everywhere.
Metal bushings, on the other hand, are virtually irrelevant and banned almost everywhere.
This is 180 degrees out of phase. Modifications that most people would never use on the street (race tires) are allowed in street classes while common modifications many people use on the street every day (SPL A-arms, pumpkin swaps) are reserved for the science-project, trailer-queen classes.
One would think metal bushings, pumpkin swaps, and the like, amounted to the installation of flux-capacitors in Deloreans.
Last edited by Z1NONLY; 03-22-2011 at 02:12 PM.
03-22-2011, 02:18 PM
#45
They are only restricted in a select few classes.
Race tires are the most advantageous modification available and they are allowed almost everywhere.
Metal bushings, on the other hand, are virtually irrelevant and banned almost everywhere.
This is 180 degrees out of phase. Modifications that most people would never use on the street (race tires) are allowed in street classes while common modifications many people use on the street every day (SPL A-arms, pumpkin swaps) are reserved for the science-project, trailer-queen classes.
One would think metal bushings, pumpkin swaps, and the like, amounted to the installation of a flux-capacitors in Deloreans.
Race tires are the most advantageous modification available and they are allowed almost everywhere.
Metal bushings, on the other hand, are virtually irrelevant and banned almost everywhere.
This is 180 degrees out of phase. Modifications that most people would never use on the street (race tires) are allowed in street classes while common modifications many people use on the street every day (SPL A-arms, pumpkin swaps) are reserved for the science-project, trailer-queen classes.
One would think metal bushings, pumpkin swaps, and the like, amounted to the installation of a flux-capacitors in Deloreans.
This whole comparison of what someone would run on the street and another would run on the track is silly. SCCA, NASA, SCORE, NHRA, etc. always assumes a purpose built car for the class and the category. Its called a BoB (Best of Breed) and assumes a car is built to the limit of the category rules and driven by a championship level driver whenever the advisory committee makes the classing determination.
No where does anyone consider a dual purpose street-autocross car or street-track or street-drag yard stick. If you guys want to compete, build a car to the class. Its a helluva lot easier then building a class for your car.
03-22-2011, 02:23 PM
#46
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Just looking at the bushing thing, run SPL arms, order a set of whiteline from A arm bushings, source a tubing with the proper inner diameter, cut the heim joints and weld them to the tubing, press the bushings in. That should/would also work for the NASA guys so they don't burn extra points for metalic bushings.
03-22-2011, 02:42 PM
#47
You're starting to sound like a Troll.
This whole comparison of what someone would run on the street and another would run on the track is silly. SCCA, NASA, SCORE, NHRA, etc. always assumes a purpose built car for the class and the category. Its called a BoB (Best of Breed) and assumes a car is built to the limit of the category rules and driven by a championship level driver whenever the advisory committee makes the classing determination.
No where does anyone consider a dual purpose street-autocross car or street-track or street-drag yard stick. If you guys want to compete, build a car to the class. Its a helluva lot easier then building a class for your car.
This whole comparison of what someone would run on the street and another would run on the track is silly. SCCA, NASA, SCORE, NHRA, etc. always assumes a purpose built car for the class and the category. Its called a BoB (Best of Breed) and assumes a car is built to the limit of the category rules and driven by a championship level driver whenever the advisory committee makes the classing determination.
No where does anyone consider a dual purpose street-autocross car or street-track or street-drag yard stick. If you guys want to compete, build a car to the class. Its a helluva lot easier then building a class for your car.
The classing debate has been going on for years and will most likely continue.
However, my complaint has less to do with car classes and more to due with the scrutiny of inconsequential things (within the classes) and the "open season" attitude of very advantageous things.
I have had my debate over car classes and felt quite vindicated when Ullose suggested 350Z's should go to STU, a year after arguing against that very suggestion when I was the one making it.
But back to the details (many of which I believe are petty) within the classes.
Would you not think the rules silly if they allowed after-market superchargers on all cars?
All the arguments made in favor of the present rule structure would support such a move.
Yes, superchargers are a modification that provide an advantage over those without them. But hey everyone is allowed, so everyone should just go get them. Right?
I don't think superchargers could hide behind "purpose built" or "BoB" excuses without getting laughed at.
I think race tires are accepted because "it's just the way it is" when people get to the sport and many fear ridicule for questioning it.
Last edited by Z1NONLY; 03-22-2011 at 02:45 PM.
03-22-2011, 02:55 PM
#48
Having been part of rule making for a race sanctioning body I can tell you that we don't start out scrutinizing inconsequential things. Rules generally start out broadly and then get more granular as competitors devise clever ways of exploiting the gray areas.
I gave an example earlier in this thread about Stock class competitors shooting nails into rubber bushings to firm them up. There was no rule at the time that said, "Thou shalt not shoot nails into your bushings." Now there's not only a "stock bushings required" rule in stock there's also a rule specifying metallic content - in stock! What about "stock" didn't the competitors understand?
Same thing has happened over the decades in Street Prepared. Rulesets grow primarily through accretion (like a coral reef) not through deliberate planning. Competitors are devious, sly, and creative.
03-22-2011, 07:32 PM
#49
1. Burn out the rubber part of the stock bushings and push the center out.
2. Take the blade of your hacksaw and thread it through the bushing opening.
3. Reassemble the hacksaw and cut one or two slits in the steel outer bushing shell.
4. Using a chisel, carefully curl the cut corners of the steel outer shell into the center.
5. At some point you should be able to push the shell out.
2. Take the blade of your hacksaw and thread it through the bushing opening.
3. Reassemble the hacksaw and cut one or two slits in the steel outer bushing shell.
4. Using a chisel, carefully curl the cut corners of the steel outer shell into the center.
5. At some point you should be able to push the shell out.
No dice tonight. then I got told to stop because the baby went to bed. Need to get home earlier tomorrow and see if I can get them out.
03-23-2011, 08:56 AM
#52
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Are there any 370Z camber adjustable control arms that are SP legal? If the answer is no again one has to ask if the current rule makes sense. Yes I know its not just for 350Z and 370z but if a rule puts a car at a disadvantage one such as myself has to ask? Is the intent to punish certain cars and make owners of these cars develop potentially unsafe applications to assure someone doesn't exploit a poorly written rule somehow. I'm sure the rule could be amended to allow some of the semi solid bushings to be legal and not allow solid metal bearings.
I know I have beat this to death but I'm trying to understand this one before I chose direction.
I know I have beat this to death but I'm trying to understand this one before I chose direction.
Last edited by Shamu; 03-25-2011 at 11:35 AM.
03-23-2011, 09:16 AM
#54
This is especially important when you're talking about very high spring rates on high-grip tires.
A pair of sphericals on one control arm in an otherwise-stock suspension? Not much, if any, real advantage. But as noted above: open the door a crack, and soon the whole place is overrun.
Best of luck on the bushing extraction, Chris. Sounds like a real PITA.
03-23-2011, 09:33 AM
#55
I dont see the majority of SP drivers spending $40K on their cars as you outline above? There might be a few crazies who do this but the larger population such as Chris and myself arent going to spend much more than say $15K on preparation. Knowing typical SP cars I have see this is good figure.
And its this take it or leave it attitude that many in the SCCA really need to look at in general. Its really a turn off for a guy like me who is still new to the SCCA organization. Other clubs have been much more flexible and have rules that make common sense to me. Dont get me wrong I'm trying to work with this bushing rule but dang man its stupid!
I have always seen SM, Prepared and Mod classes being the true garage "engineer" class, not SP. I dont see cutting stock bearing out of a stock control arm and garage fabricating something as "engineering" I see it as a dangerous experiment that ruins the stock arm and results in an aftermarket arm with a stock bushing that isnt designed to original developers specs.
This leads me to the next question. Is there any 370Z camber adjustable control arms that are SP legal? If the answer is no again one has to ask if the current rule makes sense. Yes I know its not just for 350 and 370z but if a rule puts a car at a disadvantage one such as myself has to ask? Is the intent to punish certain cars and make owners of these cars develop potentially unsafe applications to assure someone doesn't exploit a poorly written rule somehow. I'm sure the rule could be amended to allow some of the semi solid bushings to be legal and not allow solid metal bearings. I mean seriously who wants a race car with stock bearings that dont hold suspension in place? Isnt that what stock class is for? Why spend $40K on a "race car" that really isnt a race car?
I know I have beat this to death but I'm trying to understand this one before I chose direction.
And its this take it or leave it attitude that many in the SCCA really need to look at in general. Its really a turn off for a guy like me who is still new to the SCCA organization. Other clubs have been much more flexible and have rules that make common sense to me. Dont get me wrong I'm trying to work with this bushing rule but dang man its stupid!
I have always seen SM, Prepared and Mod classes being the true garage "engineer" class, not SP. I dont see cutting stock bearing out of a stock control arm and garage fabricating something as "engineering" I see it as a dangerous experiment that ruins the stock arm and results in an aftermarket arm with a stock bushing that isnt designed to original developers specs.
This leads me to the next question. Is there any 370Z camber adjustable control arms that are SP legal? If the answer is no again one has to ask if the current rule makes sense. Yes I know its not just for 350 and 370z but if a rule puts a car at a disadvantage one such as myself has to ask? Is the intent to punish certain cars and make owners of these cars develop potentially unsafe applications to assure someone doesn't exploit a poorly written rule somehow. I'm sure the rule could be amended to allow some of the semi solid bushings to be legal and not allow solid metal bearings. I mean seriously who wants a race car with stock bearings that dont hold suspension in place? Isnt that what stock class is for? Why spend $40K on a "race car" that really isnt a race car?
I know I have beat this to death but I'm trying to understand this one before I chose direction.
Nylon 6/6 bushings are not dangerous or unsafe and have been used for decades in both autocross and road race applications. Phoenix, Pratt and Miller, Turner Motorsports, and many others have professionally engineered and run Nylon 6/6 bushings. Characterizing these kinds of mods as garage engineering just shows ignorance.
I'm not going to change your mind with these arguments and if you don't understand by now, I can't help you. I'm out.
03-23-2011, 10:06 AM
#57
Man, this thread took a decisive turn.
These Internets just got serious.....
Edit: The dangerous garage engineer in me couldn't stay quiet. I think I may have found an easier solution to the SPL bars, think panhard bar endlink.
These Internets just got serious.....
Edit: The dangerous garage engineer in me couldn't stay quiet. I think I may have found an easier solution to the SPL bars, think panhard bar endlink.
Last edited by DmanG281; 03-23-2011 at 10:11 AM.
03-23-2011, 11:52 AM
#59
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Well at least you can run camber arms, BTW look at my idea, simple fab work and will probably cost under $100 to make yoru SPL arms work. Not all rules are fair, BS for example, the Z is not camber adjustable up front and other cars are from the factory. Part of being competative in autocross is picking the proper car to win with.
03-23-2011, 12:43 PM
#60
Well at least you can run camber arms, BTW look at my idea, simple fab work and will probably cost under $100 to make yoru SPL arms work. Not all rules are fair, BS for example, the Z is not camber adjustable up front and other cars are from the factory. Part of being competative in autocross is picking the proper car to win with.