Nate Tempest

I've just recently gotten into autocross. Been to five local events or so, and really enjoying it. So far have been driving my daily, which until recently was an '03 Z4, and now (because I'm a lucky SOB) is an '09 911 Turbo. That's super fun, but I don't really want to do any significant mods to it, and I'd also like a car that I wouldn't mind thrashing too much, aaand I'd like to get into track driving at some point too, so figured it'd make sense to get a dedicated car.

I want something that'll be fun without being TOO powerful (so it's better for learning), safe, reasonably competitive, not too expensive, etc. The 350Z seems to check every box. Now, I haven't actually driven one yet, so obviously will have to see if I actually like it. But I wanted to check with you guys since there's obviously a ton of knowledge here - there's an '06 Base model for sale locally to me, which I'm considering test driving. I'd probably drive in the street class at first, but would ultimately be aiming at STU (mostly because once I start tracking it I'll want to put seats and harness in). I've noticed though that everyone seems to get either '03 or '08 models. Is the Revup engine really a bad idea? Honestly I like the idea of having a nice high-reving NA motor (The one and only thing I don't love about the 911tt is that it only revs to 6800 on the stock tune - that runs out fast.) So for fun factor alone I'd go for an 06+ (I say without having driven any yet!) I understand that the HR gives you incrementally more power, but is it really going to make a big difference (especially at my level)? I doubt I'll ever be competing seriously. But I'm not in any rush either, so if there's a good reason to wait for an '07 or '08 instead of an '06, I'm happy to do so.

Appreciate any thoughts. If I do end up buying one I expect I'll be around here a lot more as I learn more about suspension mods and such!

Edit: Oh, and one other quick question - there's no reason why I wouldn't be able to put together a nice STU car that can also be driven to and from events and do occasional track days, right? Just want to make sure my basic premise is sound here...

carbuffguy

My advice to you would be whatever year/model you end up with, keep it stock for a couple years to compete with - just do some class legal tweaks.
Take some instruction asap before you develop some bad habits (EVERYONE thinks they're born a GREAT driver, but the truth is, It's a technical sport). A faster car will not make you faster, it will amplify your mistakes. Example - a state of the art, shinny, expensive, new driver will not make you a better golfer if your swing is lacking.
Golf, actually is a great sport to compare to AX. Although there is a large game going on with lots of competitors, the real game is in your head. Improving your skill set is the only way be competitive, EQUIPMENT is way down the list. And if being competitive is your only goal, you'll be disappointed.

As far as fun vs competitive - the Z is a great fun car to AX you would love it.
I have been involved in Solo 1 and 2 on and off for 30 years - from street to A modified and the Z is probably one of cars I enjoyed the most.
To be competitive you might have to get into a car that you may or may not like - Miata, H2000 etc, so you have to decide...A car you like or a car that takes advantage of the current rules (rules change every year and with it the favored car changes)

Anyway, all this ^ is only my opinion. The only fact I have for you is - Yes you can drive a STU Z to and fro. Mine is STU maxed and it's a pleasure to drive daily also.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Welcome and carbuffguy has some good ideas, but I'd add that if the OP is looking for a high-revving track car, the Z33 is not it. The VQ35DE/revup/HR engines are all designed to put most of the power and torque down from 5-7K. If you're truly looking for a high revving engine in a sportscar, I'd go with Honda's F20C or F21C1 in the S2K.

However, the 350Z can be a strong and reliable trackday car. Put your money into tuning the suspension to your tastes, buy a BBK and good safety equipment if you're going to the track. Oh, and get a quaife, or other serious LSD on the board here to put down all that Nissan power! After that, it's pads and tires as the prime expense, while you develop your driving skills.

carbuffguy

^^true - The Z33 is a better track car than a AX car.
But for AX it's not too shabby either - As you probably know already, 1st and 2nd is all you need for AX, if you can keep it up at 5-7k in 2nd you'll be golden. You'll have no problems holding 2nd gear on 99% of the ax courses and the 1% you're better off holding second anyway.

Oh, and they're built to be driven hard - "thrashing" - unlike some of the other cars I've AXed

True though, the S2k is the perfect auto x car (with the current class rules) - just not as aesthetically pleasing as the Z33 and in my opinion not as good on the track. But i'll leave that to Dkmura for input as I'm sure he's seen 'em in the rear-view

Nate Tempest

When I was looking for ideas for an AutoX/track car, I took a look at the top finishers in a bunch of classes at nationals last year. IIRC 350z's were 1 and 2 (and a bunch more) in STU. So it must be reasonably competitive. Seriously though, fun is more important than competitive. I've got two young kids, so I'm not going to be traveling to major events or anything anytime soon anyway.

Totally agreed that you don't want to go crazy on power or mods early on. The only mods I would consider doing immediately are wheels & tires (plus anything needed to make them fit) and LSD. Also safety mods if I end up having a chance to track it much. Eventually I'd want to do more, but definitely want to work on my driving first. (And get used to the car on the stock suspension so I can feel the difference when I eventually do make changes.)

Also agreed that some kind of training is a must. There's not a lot available locally, but I'm looking into weekend things nearby and such.

So - two questions about this specific car. 1) I notice that most 350z's driven by serious autocrossers are either 2003 or 2008, so not the revup engine. Aside from the oil consumption issue, is there any reason to take a pass on a 2006? Comparing the issues from different years, it looks like early on you've got weak transmissions, in the middle you've got oil consumption, and later you've got weak slave cylinders. Of those the oil consumption seems most manageable, as long as it's not likely to keep getting worse over time. BUT if there's a good reason to hold out for a different car, I don't mind waiting.

2) Regarding the oil consumption, the specific one that's available locally, the guy says it burns a liter (1.05 quarts) of oil every 4-6 weeks, and he drives roughly 15km per year. So (if he's accurate) that 1L every 1300km or so, or 1 quart every ~900 miles. That seems high to me, but not necessarily a huge deal if I can just check the oil before events and not expect it to get any worse. Opinions there? (Or would I be better off asking in the tech forum?)

Thanks!

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

It's been decades since I autocrossed, but one thing to consider is rule changes can change the competitiveness of the Z in an instant. In my world, SCCA road racing rules have changed from year-to-year. But here's a few thoughts to answer your questions:

1) The early '03 Z's had the least amount of soundproofing on them and were likely the lightest. They're also affordable and the trannys can be upgraded (my '03 street car has a CD009 spec tranny). The '06 revups used a bit more oil, but as you've mentioned, this is manageable. The '07-08 HR models have engines that are quite different from the DE-engine cars and are more directly linked to the subsequent VQ37VHR engines used in the 370Z and G37. Nissan engineers also elected to go with a internal CSC, rather than a external slave.

2) Do a search and you'll find quite a bit of discussion on revup oil consumption. Burning a quart of oil every 1K was not too surprising. The single season I ran a revup in SCCA and NASA racing, it wasn't hard to keep up with this oil consumption between races. So if you like this '06 Z and it has a verified service history, it should be OK as the basis for a track car.

carbuffguy

And check the rules on changing the dif - it might bump you out of stock, which you don't want to do year one/two...
Some local clubs are lenient on rookies ??? But if you do well someone will have a problem with it.

dboyzalter

iTrader: (3)

And the base model might be the way to go so you can run a nice 285/35/18 square tire set-up without issues with traction control.

carbuffguy

[QUOTE=dboyzalter;10887882]And the base model might be the way to go so you can run a nice 285/35/18 square tire set-up without issues with traction control.[/QUOTE

Very good point that

Nate Tempest

> the trannys can be upgraded (my '03 street car has a CD009 spec tranny

Wouldn't that bump you out of the street touring classes though? I could be wrong, but iirc if you install parts from a different model year you're into street prepared.

That said, I think I'd rather have one of the higher revving ones anyway, so will probably look at 06+ regardless.

> And check the rules on changing the dif - it might bump you out of stock, which you don't want to do year one/two...

> And the base model might be the way to go so you can run a nice 285/35/18 square tire set-up without issues with traction control.

Definitely planning to go for a base model for cost, weight, and lack of traction control. Given that, I'll probably be doing the wheels relatively early anyway, which will bump be into touring regardless, so I'm not too worried about the LSD doing so (it will). Honestly I'm not too worried about being super competitive for the first while regardless, so it doesn't bother me much if I don't have the ideal build for the class off the bat. Just want to make sure I'll be able to get relatively close eventually, assuming I stay interested! (And that I'll be able to track the car too without any major sacrifices. That's honestly the main reason I'm aiming for street touring - because I want to put a race seat and harness in eventually.)

OK, next step is to go drive this car then and see if I actually enjoy it!

Nate Tempest

Actually, on further consideration.. I think the HR probably is the engine for me, given I would like high-revving. Will just have to live with the potential internal slave issue. Now the problem is, finding a Base HR Z looks like it's going to be difficult, to say the least.

From some quick research, it looks like on non-base models, the VDC Off button doesn't turn it off completely, but it is possible to unplug the module, resulting in only the ABS being left active, like on a Base. Is that right? And if so, any other reason (aside from cost) not to buy a different trim? Finally, if I'm doing that, would the added aero of the GT be any benefit? Or just go with whatever's available?

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

It sounds as though you haven't driven either a DE or HR Z as yet. The difference in RPM range is not significant. The CSC problems in the HR can be overcome with aftermarket parts (check out Z Speed) and the VDC feature can be disconnected.

But it sounds like you really want a HR, so IMO the added features of a NISMO or GT model might be worth adding to your search.

Nate Tempest

You're right that I haven't driven any yet. I'll have to travel a bit to do that. That said, the difference in redlines certainly looks significant: 6100 for DE, 6600 for revup, and 7600 for HR. That's what's got me thinking HR is likely the engine for me.

NISMO would put me in a different class, plus I want a N/A car. Not sure the GT's features would be useful either since I'll be replacing the seats, diff, wheels, brakes.. not much left besides the VDC which I'd disable anyway and the added underbody aero (maybe useful)? So as long as the VDC can be completely disconnected, it will probably come down to what I can find nearby. A base model would be ideal, but there are very few of those around, especially in 2007-2008.

What I'll probably do for now though is just find one of some sort to test drive. I think there might be a convertible local. I'm definitely looking for a coupe, but it should be close enough to get the idea.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Nate, not sure where your research is coming from, but the redline on a DE is 6500, and 7500 for a HR. And from actively road racing both engines over the past nine years, I can only say it's a minor adjustment to extract the maximum from either. Also, the NISMO Z33 uses a N/A VQ35HR...

carbuffguy

Why replace the Brembos on a GT ?

dboyzalter

iTrader: (3)

The GT and nismo have factory brembo brakes.. The nismo adds nice rays wheels added chassis stiffness and bracing along with better suspension, and a functional aerodynamic body kit... The engine is the same... The exhaust is the same except it has nismo on the tips and polished muffler...

Im pretty sure the new osiris program can now disable traction control without micky mousing wires or pulling fuses.

If your looking for a track toy the nismo 350z would be hard to beat. But it does cost significantly more than all the other 07 and 08 models.

Nate Tempest

Ah, yeah, appears my numbers were bunk. Not sure where I got them. Still, 6500 to 7500 does sound like a decent difference. Like I said, my 911tt revs to 6800 stock, and I was hoping to find a NA that revs higher, just for the variety of it, if nothing else.

My mistake on the NISMO - I honestly haven't looked into them at all, as it would put me out of the STU autocross class that I want to run in.

Good point; might not. I was thinking in terms of a Base model, when I'd plan to replace all that stuff. Probably would keep the Brembos, at least at first.

NISMO is out due to classing. As long as I can disable vdc completely it doesn't matter too much to me whether I need to unplug a sensor or whatever, since I won't be streeting the car much except for to/from events.

As I understand it the GT has some underbody aero kit that the other models lack, but I doubt it would make much difference, especially at AutoX speeds.

carbuffguy

Sounds like you've decided on a 07/08 base, coupe - go get one

Desert Z

iTrader: (1)

Before I got my 06 Z (track model-rev up engine) I boiled down to the Z and the S2k with mainly autocross and future tracking in mind. I am glad I went with the Z for several reasons. I got brembos stock, forged Rays wheels (I am running 245/285 tires), 60 HP is a noticeable difference, Z torque curve is better, at 100 mph+ the Z feels way more planted than the Honda (partly due to the distinctively heavy steering feel of the Z and partly due to the extra +/- 400 lbs), to name the first that come to mind.

The S2k does have a sweet free-flowing all motor sound to it, but so does the Z with cams and long tubes.