Querry on springs.
09-05-2005, 07:26 PM
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Querry on springs.
I am planning to do a full coilover (like TIEN or HKS) in 15,000 miles (when I hit 35K. For now I am looking into maybe getting a set of springs. From the people that have done that, which work best? Hotchkis, Eibach, Tien, SWIFT, etc... Thanks for help.
09-06-2005, 02:25 PM
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there is no one answer to your question, since many variables will determine your choice
you need to ask yourself the following first
1. are you doing it for looks or to change the way your car's suspension behaves, or some combination of both
2. how much of a drop do you want, if at all
3. do you want linear (or near linear) vs progressive springs
4. what spring rate you have now (03-04 or >04.5 model year), and what spring rates you want to go to change the way the car handles
5. whether you are concerned about matching shocks to springs; ie. stock shocks may not be able to handle certain spring rates
its all about where you want to go with your cars suspension behavior and looks
if you answer those 5 questions then you'll find that you will arrive at the proper spring choice for YOU, maybe one or two choices in that category, versus what someone else thinks is best
there are listings of information on each spring set on manufacturer websites or in postings here on the board (most of credit goes to Gsedan35 for compiling the info)
hope that helps versus hinders, but i think you'll make a better choice in the end
pp
you need to ask yourself the following first
1. are you doing it for looks or to change the way your car's suspension behaves, or some combination of both
2. how much of a drop do you want, if at all
3. do you want linear (or near linear) vs progressive springs
4. what spring rate you have now (03-04 or >04.5 model year), and what spring rates you want to go to change the way the car handles
5. whether you are concerned about matching shocks to springs; ie. stock shocks may not be able to handle certain spring rates
its all about where you want to go with your cars suspension behavior and looks
if you answer those 5 questions then you'll find that you will arrive at the proper spring choice for YOU, maybe one or two choices in that category, versus what someone else thinks is best
there are listings of information on each spring set on manufacturer websites or in postings here on the board (most of credit goes to Gsedan35 for compiling the info)
hope that helps versus hinders, but i think you'll make a better choice in the end
pp
Last edited by palepony; 09-06-2005 at 02:31 PM.
09-07-2005, 01:41 PM
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Let me try to answer these 5 questions as best as I can
I do not wish to drop the car enough to mes up the allignment (if possible), so lowering would be as minimal as possible. I would like my shocks to stay intact for at least a year (I drive it maybe 10-12K a year). The car is the '03 Touring. As per linear vs. progressive, what is the difference in feel?
I do not wish to drop the car enough to mes up the allignment (if possible), so lowering would be as minimal as possible. I would like my shocks to stay intact for at least a year (I drive it maybe 10-12K a year). The car is the '03 Touring. As per linear vs. progressive, what is the difference in feel?
09-07-2005, 08:22 PM
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i just want in on this thread as well hehe i just bought the Hotchkins sports for very mild drop, and hope tighter handeling arround turns. guess we wait and see
09-08-2005, 03:24 AM
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oleg
use the search function and type in "linear vs progressive" and you'll come across a thread that recently discussed the differences
after install of ANY springs you should do an alignment, however, by limiting yourself on your drop you may be able to achieve alignment with the OEM adjustments. anything close to 1 inch drop may require additional hardware to achieve alignment, incl adjustable arms and/or toe bolts (and therefore more $$)
those springs with modest drops (ie. less than 1 inch) include hotchkis, rsr, tein h or s-techs, espelir, kg/mm, and swifts (although the swifts are close to one inch drop at 0.8inch in front)
since you have a 2003 make year, your rear shocks will also limit your spring choice. 2003 OEM spring rates in the rear are approx 310-314 lb/in depending on source. It is questioned whether the 2003 stock shocks have enough damping ability for even those stock rates. therefore you will not be able to significantly increase your spring rate without also changing your shocks. the closest to stock spring rates out of the above list leaves the hotchkis, tein H-tech, and swift springs to choose from. if you are going to replace your shocks your options are greater
also try and answer if you want to change the oversteer/understeer characteristics of your car, or if you want it to stay the same. also answer the linear or progressive option. you just may limit those last 3 choices to one choice that fits your needs!
another option = you mention you want "minimal drop"; if you want no drop, then you may get more handling bang for your buck by just replacing your shocks on your 2003 OEM suspension as these have been implicated as the weak link
pp
use the search function and type in "linear vs progressive" and you'll come across a thread that recently discussed the differences
after install of ANY springs you should do an alignment, however, by limiting yourself on your drop you may be able to achieve alignment with the OEM adjustments. anything close to 1 inch drop may require additional hardware to achieve alignment, incl adjustable arms and/or toe bolts (and therefore more $$)
those springs with modest drops (ie. less than 1 inch) include hotchkis, rsr, tein h or s-techs, espelir, kg/mm, and swifts (although the swifts are close to one inch drop at 0.8inch in front)
since you have a 2003 make year, your rear shocks will also limit your spring choice. 2003 OEM spring rates in the rear are approx 310-314 lb/in depending on source. It is questioned whether the 2003 stock shocks have enough damping ability for even those stock rates. therefore you will not be able to significantly increase your spring rate without also changing your shocks. the closest to stock spring rates out of the above list leaves the hotchkis, tein H-tech, and swift springs to choose from. if you are going to replace your shocks your options are greater
also try and answer if you want to change the oversteer/understeer characteristics of your car, or if you want it to stay the same. also answer the linear or progressive option. you just may limit those last 3 choices to one choice that fits your needs!
another option = you mention you want "minimal drop"; if you want no drop, then you may get more handling bang for your buck by just replacing your shocks on your 2003 OEM suspension as these have been implicated as the weak link
pp
Last edited by palepony; 09-08-2005 at 03:51 AM.
09-08-2005, 03:46 AM
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rolling
i see you have the 2003 suspension as well
the hotchkis will have a less firm rear spring rate and increased front spring rate resulting in transfer of roll stiffness to the front, increasing understeer (albeit mildly and will likely perform similiarly to your current springs). So it may not be "tighter in the turns" other than the lowered center of gravity from the 0.6/0.8inch drop. the understeer will introduce more push out of a turn
with your adjustable tokico's you have more options for choosing a product with an increased spring rate (see post to oleg above)
above being said, many have been very happy with the hotchkis springs, and i'm sure you won't be dissapointed mating these to the tokico's
pp
i see you have the 2003 suspension as well
the hotchkis will have a less firm rear spring rate and increased front spring rate resulting in transfer of roll stiffness to the front, increasing understeer (albeit mildly and will likely perform similiarly to your current springs). So it may not be "tighter in the turns" other than the lowered center of gravity from the 0.6/0.8inch drop. the understeer will introduce more push out of a turn
with your adjustable tokico's you have more options for choosing a product with an increased spring rate (see post to oleg above)
above being said, many have been very happy with the hotchkis springs, and i'm sure you won't be dissapointed mating these to the tokico's
pp
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09-09-2005, 03:57 PM
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sorry, a correction to above post
"2003 OEM spring rates in the rear are approx 310-314 lb/in depending on source" is incorrect
those are the front rates, sorry
the rear rates for the 2003 OEM is 342-350 lb/in depending on source
no confusion intended!
oleg, any closer to a choice?
pp
"2003 OEM spring rates in the rear are approx 310-314 lb/in depending on source" is incorrect
those are the front rates, sorry
the rear rates for the 2003 OEM is 342-350 lb/in depending on source
no confusion intended!
oleg, any closer to a choice?
pp
09-10-2005, 01:05 PM
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Palepony, actually, I am further from the choice then before...
With the weight transfer and spring rates and all, this is new to me, I spend most of my research on making power...
You do seem to know your suspencions, so I will try not to annoy you to death with a flood of questions.
What is the difference between shocks and coilovers (see how little DO I know)?
I would like to keep the steering neutral, but if need be, I would rather have over- then understeer. Also, I am not planning to build a track monster, just a very fast street car. On-the-fly ajustability is not THAT crucial for me, neither are loud names, like HKS or TEIN. In fact, if I can set my suspencion once and not worry about it, even better, so I do not care for any kind of re-ajustability. Based on the description, what is the most cost-effective suspencion system? Everyone seems to rave about the tokicos.
Also, multiple rate sprins are OK, but which would be better for street, that or progressives?
And finally, what do you have in your car?
With the weight transfer and spring rates and all, this is new to me, I spend most of my research on making power...
You do seem to know your suspencions, so I will try not to annoy you to death with a flood of questions.
What is the difference between shocks and coilovers (see how little DO I know)?
I would like to keep the steering neutral, but if need be, I would rather have over- then understeer. Also, I am not planning to build a track monster, just a very fast street car. On-the-fly ajustability is not THAT crucial for me, neither are loud names, like HKS or TEIN. In fact, if I can set my suspencion once and not worry about it, even better, so I do not care for any kind of re-ajustability. Based on the description, what is the most cost-effective suspencion system? Everyone seems to rave about the tokicos.
Also, multiple rate sprins are OK, but which would be better for street, that or progressives?
And finally, what do you have in your car?
09-11-2005, 12:11 AM
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oleg
you are far from annoying me with questions, ask away. thats what forums are all about. i've learned a tremendous amount from other posters and only here to help if i can. sorry to hear you feel further away from your choice, i hope i didn't make it more confusing.
based on what you have provided in previous and your last post, coilovers may be overkill. here are my suggestions, take them for the interpretation on paper that they are worth as i've owned neither
if you want your car to handle essentially the same as you have now (2003) but lowered, pick the hotchkis, and you won't need new shocks.
if you want to increase spring rates, get more oversteer, and willing to buy new shocks, get the RSR and either the tokico's or koni shocks.
as for what i have. I'm stock! .
i've been researching this for nearly 1/2 a year. at first i was convinced i wanted coilovers. then i thought coilovers would be too much and wanted spring/shock combo. however, now again, i've realized that no springs available have the rates i'm looking for. so i'm back to coilovers! in other words, i've researched this to death! and i hope that i can share that research with others.
i've decided i would like spring rates of approx 10kg/mm (550lb/in) front and 8 kg/mm (450 lb/in) rear. the manufacturers that have approximately these rates are zeal, cusco, and unitech; all very expensive unfortunately. i've been waiting for the tanabe sustec SS/sustec seven as their sustec OC line are those rates and i'm hoping their adjustable line will be the same. thus i'm waiting to purchase, and if tanabe doesn't come through, the i will have to buck up for one of the above.
why choose these spring rates? I wanted to be around 500 lb/in. however, there seems to be a point where increasing the spring rates result in poorer rear traction. a cutpoint seems to have emerged that 425 lb/in rear is where the sweet spot is, as the R+D by unitech has resulted in them choosing near this rate. i would then tweek out the resulting understeer with sways.
good luck with your choice
pp
you are far from annoying me with questions, ask away. thats what forums are all about. i've learned a tremendous amount from other posters and only here to help if i can. sorry to hear you feel further away from your choice, i hope i didn't make it more confusing.
based on what you have provided in previous and your last post, coilovers may be overkill. here are my suggestions, take them for the interpretation on paper that they are worth as i've owned neither
if you want your car to handle essentially the same as you have now (2003) but lowered, pick the hotchkis, and you won't need new shocks.
if you want to increase spring rates, get more oversteer, and willing to buy new shocks, get the RSR and either the tokico's or koni shocks.
as for what i have. I'm stock!
.i've been researching this for nearly 1/2 a year. at first i was convinced i wanted coilovers. then i thought coilovers would be too much and wanted spring/shock combo. however, now again, i've realized that no springs available have the rates i'm looking for. so i'm back to coilovers! in other words, i've researched this to death! and i hope that i can share that research with others.
i've decided i would like spring rates of approx 10kg/mm (550lb/in) front and 8 kg/mm (450 lb/in) rear. the manufacturers that have approximately these rates are zeal, cusco, and unitech; all very expensive unfortunately. i've been waiting for the tanabe sustec SS/sustec seven as their sustec OC line are those rates and i'm hoping their adjustable line will be the same. thus i'm waiting to purchase, and if tanabe doesn't come through, the i will have to buck up for one of the above.
why choose these spring rates? I wanted to be around 500 lb/in. however, there seems to be a point where increasing the spring rates result in poorer rear traction. a cutpoint seems to have emerged that 425 lb/in rear is where the sweet spot is, as the R+D by unitech has resulted in them choosing near this rate. i would then tweek out the resulting understeer with sways.
good luck with your choice
pp
09-11-2005, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by palepony
4. what spring rate you have now (03-04 or >04.5 model year), and what spring rates you want to go to change the way the car handles
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....1693577&conly=
Thanks!
09-11-2005, 01:58 PM
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ocdavid
yes, it has been posted that the rear spring rates and shocks are revised at the 2004.5+ make years. i have not measured these rates myself, but have been posted by respected members of this and G35 boards.
i read your other thread previously, but i thought you were asking a different question. specifically why your ride height is higher than you expected. i will post on that thread to keep to the OP's topic here
pp
yes, it has been posted that the rear spring rates and shocks are revised at the 2004.5+ make years. i have not measured these rates myself, but have been posted by respected members of this and G35 boards.
i read your other thread previously, but i thought you were asking a different question. specifically why your ride height is higher than you expected. i will post on that thread to keep to the OP's topic here
pp
Last edited by palepony; 09-11-2005 at 02:06 PM.
09-11-2005, 03:59 PM
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Now that I have emerged rom a fetal position in a corner, I am ready to tackle this annoying issue further.
Another factor is cost. I would prefer to be within 1100-1200 $ for the hardware. As far as results on handling/driving that I am looking for:
-eliminate the "bounce syndrome" (you know which one)
-have the suspencion "soak up" bumps (we have a lot of those in Brooklyn) as much as possible, but still handle criply enough with neutral/oversteering
-keep the drop within limits of stock allignment hardware.
Finally, I found a set of coilovers that may be the key. They are made by D2 racing. Here is the link to their homepage:
http://www.d2racing.com
Does anyone know if they are good or is it total crap (once again, for street, not track) or would I be better off with Hotchkis or RSR springs/koni or tokico shocks combo ($$ is similar).
And finally, what is the difference between a coilover and a sprick/shock combo?
Thank you for helping through my choice.
Another factor is cost. I would prefer to be within 1100-1200 $ for the hardware. As far as results on handling/driving that I am looking for:
-eliminate the "bounce syndrome" (you know which one)
-have the suspencion "soak up" bumps (we have a lot of those in Brooklyn) as much as possible, but still handle criply enough with neutral/oversteering
-keep the drop within limits of stock allignment hardware.
Finally, I found a set of coilovers that may be the key. They are made by D2 racing. Here is the link to their homepage:
http://www.d2racing.com
Does anyone know if they are good or is it total crap (once again, for street, not track) or would I be better off with Hotchkis or RSR springs/koni or tokico shocks combo ($$ is similar).
And finally, what is the difference between a coilover and a sprick/shock combo?
Thank you for helping through my choice.
09-11-2005, 05:29 PM
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oleg
coilover's are essentially what the name implies... coils (springs) mounted over a shock body. that definition is not very useful in its own. generally, coilovers refer to a spring over shock combination that are designed to work together (the shock valved properly to the chosen spring rate). "most", but not all coilovers use standard sized linear springs (few use progressive). the bonus with standard sized springs is that the suspension tuner can swap in springs of their choice, only needing to revalve the shocks. coilovers can have nonadjustable or adjustable shocks.
did you have a chance to read the linear vs progressive thread?
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ar+progressive
progressive springs may "soak-up" your bumps. the advantages/disadvantages of progressive springs are outlined in more detail in that thread. if you want progressive springs, we need to start over
and that's okay , you want to get what's best for you.
"the bounce syndrome" as you put it, has been attributed to poorly valved rear shocks on the 2003-2004 models. as mentioned before, replacing the shocks alone will solve that problem.
the ksports have very high spring rates, 840 lb/in front / 728 lb/in rear, which would be punishing for your ride especially with your concern about the "bumps" in your brooklyn roads (i presume potholes/uneven pavement?). again, i haven't owned these, but wouldn't recommend these for your use.
in my humble opinion, you'd be better off spending the same money on a quality shock/spring combo, if the spring rates meet your needs.
i forgot to mention in my last post to you that the tein H-tech or S-tech would fall somewhere between the hotchkis option and the RSR/shock, and would also fit your needs.
you're getting there! just a bit more research and i think you'll make the right choice.
pp
coilover's are essentially what the name implies... coils (springs) mounted over a shock body. that definition is not very useful in its own. generally, coilovers refer to a spring over shock combination that are designed to work together (the shock valved properly to the chosen spring rate). "most", but not all coilovers use standard sized linear springs (few use progressive). the bonus with standard sized springs is that the suspension tuner can swap in springs of their choice, only needing to revalve the shocks. coilovers can have nonadjustable or adjustable shocks.
did you have a chance to read the linear vs progressive thread?
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ar+progressive
progressive springs may "soak-up" your bumps. the advantages/disadvantages of progressive springs are outlined in more detail in that thread. if you want progressive springs, we need to start over
and that's okay , you want to get what's best for you."the bounce syndrome" as you put it, has been attributed to poorly valved rear shocks on the 2003-2004 models. as mentioned before, replacing the shocks alone will solve that problem.
the ksports have very high spring rates, 840 lb/in front / 728 lb/in rear, which would be punishing for your ride especially with your concern about the "bumps" in your brooklyn roads (i presume potholes/uneven pavement?). again, i haven't owned these, but wouldn't recommend these for your use.
in my humble opinion, you'd be better off spending the same money on a quality shock/spring combo, if the spring rates meet your needs.
i forgot to mention in my last post to you that the tein H-tech or S-tech would fall somewhere between the hotchkis option and the RSR/shock, and would also fit your needs.
you're getting there! just a bit more research and i think you'll make the right choice.
pp
Last edited by palepony; 09-11-2005 at 05:33 PM.
09-11-2005, 08:20 PM
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ok i wanna cut in here... my goals were/ are essentialy the same here.. my 03" had the bounce bad! the tokikos' alone eliminated them. If I want i can crank them up all the way and will ride very hard or down to very soft if i wanted, ($500 set) i liked them enough to put them in my last and current 350 Z's
i dont "need" springs anymore but simply want vey mild drop about 1/2 inch.
the shocks can easily adapt to the hotchkins springs.
so i get best of both worlds, inexpencive adjustability, and looks allong with life warranty and all in OEM specs nothing extra to buy ..try youll like i gaurenteee!!
i dont "need" springs anymore but simply want vey mild drop about 1/2 inch.
the shocks can easily adapt to the hotchkins springs.
so i get best of both worlds, inexpencive adjustability, and looks allong with life warranty and all in OEM specs nothing extra to buy ..try youll like i gaurenteee!!
09-12-2005, 03:23 PM
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The fog is starting to clear...
So "coilovers" is simply a spring/shock combo which was designed for one to match the other, yes?
I am sold on shocks/springs combo.Now, which is better, koni or tokico? And does anyone have an advise on springs: hotchkis or eibach? Or is there another combo that is the best?
So "coilovers" is simply a spring/shock combo which was designed for one to match the other, yes?
I am sold on shocks/springs combo.Now, which is better, koni or tokico? And does anyone have an advise on springs: hotchkis or eibach? Or is there another combo that is the best?
09-12-2005, 04:08 PM
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for the money, in my expierience I think Tokiko is of course. larger adjustment range also.
main advantage of coil over is ride height adjustability, wich usually require allignments
when over 1" of adjustment is done. and ofcourse cost Allot.
the tokikos have a continoust adjustability (go to there web page)
and can be tuned for all but the hardest of springs.
With this combo i havent found the need to install aftermarket swaybars, to give you an idea, i do some straightline, Autocross, and track racing. but mostly arround town.
main advantage of coil over is ride height adjustability, wich usually require allignments
when over 1" of adjustment is done. and ofcourse cost Allot.
the tokikos have a continoust adjustability (go to there web page)
and can be tuned for all but the hardest of springs.
With this combo i havent found the need to install aftermarket swaybars, to give you an idea, i do some straightline, Autocross, and track racing. but mostly arround town.
09-12-2005, 04:58 PM
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oh oh oleg, i'm losing ya! you're asking "what is best" again !! just kidding! what is "best" depends on what you want the car to do, which may be very different than what someone else wants. i sound like a broken record, sorry 
. use what you've learned about transfer of roll stiffness and linear/progressive springs
the eibach and hotchkis will do very different things to your car's feel, so what is better is difficult to answer other than "opinion"
eibach will lower 1 inch (you won't be in OEM alignment spec, if that's what you want) ; are progressive springs; and have higher spring rates 296/384lb/in front 316/421lb/in rear
the expected hotchkis behaviour has been described before and you have rolling's testimony above. the hotchkis won't however, to quote your want for "crisply enough with neutral/oversteering". spring rate fundamentals tell you that the hotchkis will understeer more (albeit very mildly different than an already understeering 2003 chasis). think as hotchkis as essentially the same as what you have now
but if you want opinion, as you've asked what's "best"
if I was going spring/shock combination, i'd pick either tokico's or koni (both good choices) and mate with RSR down springs. but again that's just my opinion!
just kidding! what is "best" depends on what you want the car to do, which may be very different than what someone else wants. i sound like a broken record, sorry . use what you've learned about transfer of roll stiffness and linear/progressive springsthe eibach and hotchkis will do very different things to your car's feel, so what is better is difficult to answer other than "opinion"
eibach will lower 1 inch (you won't be in OEM alignment spec, if that's what you want) ; are progressive springs; and have higher spring rates 296/384lb/in front 316/421lb/in rear
the expected hotchkis behaviour has been described before and you have rolling's testimony above. the hotchkis won't however, to quote your want for "crisply enough with neutral/oversteering". spring rate fundamentals tell you that the hotchkis will understeer more (albeit very mildly different than an already understeering 2003 chasis). think as hotchkis as essentially the same as what you have now
but if you want opinion, as you've asked what's "best"
if I was going spring/shock combination, i'd pick either tokico's or koni (both good choices) and mate with RSR down springs. but again that's just my opinion!
Last edited by palepony; 09-12-2005 at 06:25 PM.
09-12-2005, 05:07 PM
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rolling
thank's for adding the adjustable height as a feature of coilovers. i completely left that out in the description to oleg. sometime's i assume that would be common knowledge as i also assume that is why most people buy coilovers, not because of the other reasons i listed. two assumes make an *** out of me. thanks
i've been giving oleg mostly "on paper" recommendations, where you obviously have first hand experience and in several different track arena's (drag/autox/track). do you find you have understeer problems? and how are you dialing that out ?tires ?tire pressures. you already mention you don't have sways. real world experiences always help!
pp
thank's for adding the adjustable height as a feature of coilovers. i completely left that out in the description to oleg. sometime's i assume that would be common knowledge as i also assume that is why most people buy coilovers, not because of the other reasons i listed. two assumes make an *** out of me. thanks
i've been giving oleg mostly "on paper" recommendations, where you obviously have first hand experience and in several different track arena's (drag/autox/track). do you find you have understeer problems? and how are you dialing that out ?tires ?tire pressures. you already mention you don't have sways. real world experiences always help!
pp
Last edited by palepony; 09-12-2005 at 05:12 PM.
09-12-2005, 06:02 PM
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no i dont have understeer problems (these are cured with thsettings onthe shocks, theres even instruction and a tutorial in the shock manual) additionaly, the wheel and tire zized i have going "nutralize and balance" the handeling notice i DO NOT have different front and rear tire/wheel sizes.
the main thing that causes understeer IS the wider tires in the rear.. therefore I put the same size all around.. as advised of this article GREAT INFO
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr.../0404scc_350z/
the setup i have now works GREAT and would probably cover most people all i can say it try it if you dont like it you can adjust it into a totaly different animal...
from what i have seen sways are more for "fine tuning"
think how complicated things would be if you had to make adj. sways, adjustable coilovers, adjustble shoks, all work together...
the main thing that causes understeer IS the wider tires in the rear.. therefore I put the same size all around.. as advised of this article GREAT INFO
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr.../0404scc_350z/
the setup i have now works GREAT and would probably cover most people all i can say it try it if you dont like it you can adjust it into a totaly different animal...
from what i have seen sways are more for "fine tuning"
think how complicated things would be if you had to make adj. sways, adjustable coilovers, adjustble shoks, all work together...