The Truth About BBK's
07-23-2008, 10:01 AM
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You made some great points. I have no problems with stoptech, but I just want people to do a little research before saying "If it's not stoptech, then it's crap".
If people want generic calipers made in china, then stoptech is a great choice. If you want race-proven technology by companies using their own caliper technology, then there are better choices than stoptech.
If people want generic calipers made in china, then stoptech is a great choice. If you want race-proven technology by companies using their own caliper technology, then there are better choices than stoptech.
07-24-2008, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wheatz
You made some great points. I have no problems with stoptech, but I just want people to do a little research before saying "If it's not stoptech, then it's crap".
If people want generic calipers made in china, then stoptech is a great choice. If you want race-proven technology by companies using their own caliper technology, then there are better choices than stoptech.
If people want generic calipers made in china, then stoptech is a great choice. If you want race-proven technology by companies using their own caliper technology, then there are better choices than stoptech.
07-24-2008, 12:44 PM
#44
Originally Posted by wheatz
You made some great points. I have no problems with stoptech, but I just want people to do a little research before saying "If it's not stoptech, then it's crap".
If people want generic calipers made in china, then stoptech is a great choice. If you want race-proven technology by companies using their own caliper technology, then there are better choices than stoptech.
If people want generic calipers made in china, then stoptech is a great choice. If you want race-proven technology by companies using their own caliper technology, then there are better choices than stoptech.
All of Stoptechs calipers are milled in Torrance CA.
All Stoptech callipers are also TUV approved!
Race Proven? Ah.... How about the 12 hours of Sebring! Is that race proven?
Lou Gigliotti uses them on his C6 WC GT. Give Lou a call and ask his opinion about StopTech brakes.... 972 429 1963.<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yk6X4TS3nSg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yk6X4TS3nSg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Oh look what's on my car.... and it happens to be at the Track... Sebring as a matter of fact. And what's under the front wheel... Oh...... looks like StopTech! I also have 670hp and a full weight vehicle in brutal Florida heat sometimes with an instructor. They never let me down.
Last edited by JETPILOT; 07-24-2008 at 01:04 PM.
07-24-2008, 03:44 PM
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This thread is starting to get off track. It was never about one brand being better than another. If you want to start a thread chest thumping your particular brand of BBK please start a new one. This thread is about understanding how brake system work in relation to the % of brake bias and more importantly providing a analytical way to measure any brake system.
I’m in no way saying that Stop-Tech provides a sub-standard product. In fact, I believe the opposite. It's just that everyone on these forums points to the zeckhausen tests to dismiss every other brand of BBK. I wanted to point out that:
1) The zeckhausen test measured brake performance only by single panic stopping distance.
2) That single panic stopping distance has nothing to do with the number of pistons or elaborate caliper design.
3) That brake balance or bias determines single panic stopping distance, and
4) Brake balance can be achieved with any brake system by adjusting the total piston area and/or rotor size of ANY brake system (BBK or otherwise).
I’m in no way saying that Stop-Tech provides a sub-standard product. In fact, I believe the opposite. It's just that everyone on these forums points to the zeckhausen tests to dismiss every other brand of BBK. I wanted to point out that:
1) The zeckhausen test measured brake performance only by single panic stopping distance.
2) That single panic stopping distance has nothing to do with the number of pistons or elaborate caliper design.
3) That brake balance or bias determines single panic stopping distance, and
4) Brake balance can be achieved with any brake system by adjusting the total piston area and/or rotor size of ANY brake system (BBK or otherwise).
07-24-2008, 04:58 PM
#47
Originally Posted by ResIpsa
This thread is starting to get off track. It was never about one brand being better than another. If you want to start a thread chest thumping your particular brand of BBK please start a new one. This thread is about understanding how brake system work in relation to the % of brake bias and more importantly providing a analytical way to measure any brake system.
I’m in no way saying that Stop-Tech provides a sub-standard product. In fact, I believe the opposite. It's just that everyone on these forums points to the zeckhausen tests to dismiss every other brand of BBK. I wanted to point out that:
1) The zeckhausen test measured brake performance only by single panic stopping distance.
2) That single panic stopping distance has nothing to do with the number of pistons or elaborate caliper design.
3) That brake balance or bias determines single panic stopping distance, and
4) Brake balance can be achieved with any brake system by adjusting the total piston area and/or rotor size of ANY brake system (BBK or otherwise).
I’m in no way saying that Stop-Tech provides a sub-standard product. In fact, I believe the opposite. It's just that everyone on these forums points to the zeckhausen tests to dismiss every other brand of BBK. I wanted to point out that:
1) The zeckhausen test measured brake performance only by single panic stopping distance.
2) That single panic stopping distance has nothing to do with the number of pistons or elaborate caliper design.
3) That brake balance or bias determines single panic stopping distance, and
4) Brake balance can be achieved with any brake system by adjusting the total piston area and/or rotor size of ANY brake system (BBK or otherwise).
Rotor diameter dictates the break pedal force neeeded to bring the tire to the edge of grip. The larger the diameter the more brake pedal force required for a given pad.
The thread is really pointless and says nothing.
People..... pick whatever brake kit strikes your fancy. Look into how hard it is to get parts for a caliper rebuild, replacement rotors, available pads for that particular caliper, and try getting someone on the phone from tech support for whatever brand your looking into buying. That should be your determining factor in purchasing a brake kit. If your in that 1% that needs to consider brake bias then what you need is a dual master cylinder. One for front and one for the rear, and a brake proportioning valve. For everyone else buy whatever you want it all works just as well.
Last edited by JETPILOT; 07-24-2008 at 05:00 PM.
07-24-2008, 06:16 PM
#48
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Brake Bias Cals
Originally Posted by Todd TCE
A couple of additional thoughts.
First, making too large a change for the better can result in some unpleasant results. Because a street car uses only one MC the fit of wildly small pistons on the front for the sake of elevated rear performance can come back to bite. The reason is that static bias and dynamic bias do not work totally hand in hand.
As you reduce front area you generally require greater pressures to achieve the same rotor torque. This is the "firm pedal" that some simply equate to better brakes. (not really, it's just fluid balance thing) The kicker however is that if you need greater pressure to make the fronts work you also get greater pressure to the rears. Cool huh! Not so fast...the problem is that rear brakes are metered by a proportioning valve. Meaning if the line pressure in is greater...the line pressure out is lower. Too much of a good thing.
Keep in mind you can swing bias upwards of 10% with a pad change alone. Here when you need more front brake for the track due to greater weight shift you can move from BP10 to Poly B and not need to do any more.
Jakes calculator is well laid out but often for more dedicated twin cylinder set ups on race cars. If you want to cut it down a bit and keep it simpler you can use my base one.
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.co...alculator.html
Don't worry it's accurate. I helped Jake with his layout.
First, making too large a change for the better can result in some unpleasant results. Because a street car uses only one MC the fit of wildly small pistons on the front for the sake of elevated rear performance can come back to bite. The reason is that static bias and dynamic bias do not work totally hand in hand.
As you reduce front area you generally require greater pressures to achieve the same rotor torque. This is the "firm pedal" that some simply equate to better brakes. (not really, it's just fluid balance thing) The kicker however is that if you need greater pressure to make the fronts work you also get greater pressure to the rears. Cool huh! Not so fast...the problem is that rear brakes are metered by a proportioning valve. Meaning if the line pressure in is greater...the line pressure out is lower. Too much of a good thing.
Keep in mind you can swing bias upwards of 10% with a pad change alone. Here when you need more front brake for the track due to greater weight shift you can move from BP10 to Poly B and not need to do any more.
Jakes calculator is well laid out but often for more dedicated twin cylinder set ups on race cars. If you want to cut it down a bit and keep it simpler you can use my base one.
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.co...alculator.html
Don't worry it's accurate. I helped Jake with his layout.
07-24-2008, 07:03 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by JETPILOT
Tires determine braking distance... end of story.
Rotor diameter dictates the break pedal force neeeded to bring the tire to the edge of grip. The larger the diameter the more brake pedal force required for a given pad.
The thread is really pointless and says nothing.
People..... pick whatever brake kit strikes your fancy. Look into how hard it is to get parts for a caliper rebuild, replacement rotors, available pads for that particular caliper, and try getting someone on the phone from tech support for whatever brand your looking into buying. That should be your determining factor in purchasing a brake kit. If your in that 1% that needs to consider brake bias then what you need is a dual master cylinder. One for front and one for the rear, and a brake proportioning valve. For everyone else buy whatever you want it all works just as well.
Rotor diameter dictates the break pedal force neeeded to bring the tire to the edge of grip. The larger the diameter the more brake pedal force required for a given pad.
The thread is really pointless and says nothing.
People..... pick whatever brake kit strikes your fancy. Look into how hard it is to get parts for a caliper rebuild, replacement rotors, available pads for that particular caliper, and try getting someone on the phone from tech support for whatever brand your looking into buying. That should be your determining factor in purchasing a brake kit. If your in that 1% that needs to consider brake bias then what you need is a dual master cylinder. One for front and one for the rear, and a brake proportioning valve. For everyone else buy whatever you want it all works just as well.
Wow, harsh words...
Now let's look at your post.
You say that "[t]ires determine braking distance...end of story." Is it really the "end of story”? Let’s say you have the greatest tires ever developed. Very black and very round. You are driving over the crest of a steep hill and all of a sudden some punk with a flashy BBK breaks down in front of you. You slam on your brakes and your car pitches forward. Your expensive tires strain to bring you to a stop. Ideally, you would like to have all four expensive tires bringing you to a stop.
But if you’re too front biased, you’re not realizing the full potential of your rear uber-tires. Your braking distance will be longer.
And by the way, why would you even post in such a pointless thread?
07-25-2008, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JETPILOT
The larger the diameter the more brake pedal force required for a given pad.
Look into how hard it is to get parts for a caliper rebuild, replacement rotors, available pads for that particular caliper, and try getting someone on the phone from tech support for whatever brand your looking into buying. That should be your determining factor in purchasing a brake kit.
With regard to the second statemet; yes, thank you I agree totally. Which is why when you do call and you do need parts you do get to speak with someone who knows the parts and pieces. And I won't tell you about the daily special on carbon fiber ash tray covers to cover up a lack of knowledge on the parts you really want help with.
07-25-2008, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 35Z
How does one measure the leg input (in lbs) using the brake_bias_Calculator?
I can tell you however that more than about 80lbs is a real work out. Try it yourself- put a bath scale against the wall and prop yourself against something and push. Try to hold a steady 80-90lbs.
07-25-2008, 07:15 AM
#52
Originally Posted by JETPILOT
Tires determine braking distance... end of story.
Rotor diameter dictates the break pedal force neeeded to bring the tire to the edge of grip. The larger the diameter the more brake pedal force required for a given pad.
The thread is really pointless and says nothing.
People..... pick whatever brake kit strikes your fancy. Look into how hard it is to get parts for a caliper rebuild, replacement rotors, available pads for that particular caliper, and try getting someone on the phone from tech support for whatever brand your looking into buying. That should be your determining factor in purchasing a brake kit. If your in that 1% that needs to consider brake bias then what you need is a dual master cylinder. One for front and one for the rear, and a brake proportioning valve. For everyone else buy whatever you want it all works just as well.
Rotor diameter dictates the break pedal force neeeded to bring the tire to the edge of grip. The larger the diameter the more brake pedal force required for a given pad.
The thread is really pointless and says nothing.
People..... pick whatever brake kit strikes your fancy. Look into how hard it is to get parts for a caliper rebuild, replacement rotors, available pads for that particular caliper, and try getting someone on the phone from tech support for whatever brand your looking into buying. That should be your determining factor in purchasing a brake kit. If your in that 1% that needs to consider brake bias then what you need is a dual master cylinder. One for front and one for the rear, and a brake proportioning valve. For everyone else buy whatever you want it all works just as well.
All reasons I went ST over other brands. Customer service and, sorry but StopTech have been proven over and over again. Not saying AP Racing or Brembo's haven't. The AP racing kit was a kit I researched as well. However I learned that the USDM AP kit, available from Stillen, is not the same as the kit they sell to the rest of the world. I had to contact a AP vendor in the UK for pricing and it was another $1-$2k not including shipping. As for WheatZ you need to do more research than talking. Cause if I remember correctly, Greddy, Rotora, and Megan are all produce by the same company (don't recall the name) and sold to those shop for them to put their name on and sell.
EDIT: Forgot to add...
To whoever said that 99% of BBK owners don't use them... You're just as dumb as WheatZ. Cause I garuntee that 99% of StopTech owner have several sets of pads for their daily and race use! 99% of owner looking at the StopTech kit(s) are buying them cause thier OEM/Brembo brakes just don't cut it on an auto-x course, road/track race, HPDE NASA & SCCA events, or for their time-attack car. So go buy that PopCharger that is "performance" base.
Last edited by Robert_K; 07-25-2008 at 07:25 AM.
07-25-2008, 07:39 AM
#53
The reason I chose a stoptech setup on my Viper is that the Gen 2 brakes are pretty poor from the factory especially since I have no abs. The rear setup is garbage. In my research I fount out that most of the systems for the the car required you to buy/install/setup a proportioning valve to help keep your brake bias. The stoptech's did not. They engineered the setup using the techniques you described above to create a faaar superior brake system.
07-30-2008, 01:14 PM
#54
I'm a Stoptech user myself so I'm not trying to come across as it's the end all be all of brakes. But I found this on Edmunds and it helps to know that theres another test source besides Zeckhausen that shows these brakes are legit and works as advertised.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/Vehicles/2002BMWM3/
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/Vehicles/2002BMWM3/
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the strengths of a big brake kit like this one lie not in its ability to reduce a car's single-stop distance from 60 miles per hour, but rather in its ability to endure sustained high-temperature operation by adding thermal capacity and maintaining consistent pedal feel.
Stoptech's brakes do exactly that. Even so, 60-to-0 stopping tests are a standard around here and both our previous M3 brake tests we performed from this speed. So, if for no other reason than to have an apples-to-apples comparison, we repeated this test with the new brakes.
And, what do you know, there wasn't a huge improvement. The M3 stopped from 60 mph in a previous test on these tires (Yokohama Advan Neova AD07s) in 109 ft. Last week it recorded a best stop of 107.6 feet and settled consistently at 108 feet. More importantly it could have repeated this test all day. Repeated stops from 60 mph don't approach overheating the system. In fact, it takes a few runs to get the pads up to temperature so the first few stops were longer than stock -- a compromise made by high-temperature pad material.
This result does speak to the fact that Stoptech's brakes maintain the M3's stock front-to-rear brake proportioning -- something which is commonly overlooked in many aftermarket kits. This balancing act is crucial to proper brake performance.
The real test will be during aggressive street driving which is what the Axxis Ultimate pads we're using were designed for. Look for further updates after we've had the M3 in the mountains.
Also, the M3's brake pad wear warning light is still on because the installer thought the aftermarket pads wouldn't work with the stock sensor. We've since been told that it will and are planning to reinstall the sensor later this week. Check back here for updates.
Josh Jacquot, Senior road test editor @ 59,202 miles
Stoptech's brakes do exactly that. Even so, 60-to-0 stopping tests are a standard around here and both our previous M3 brake tests we performed from this speed. So, if for no other reason than to have an apples-to-apples comparison, we repeated this test with the new brakes.
And, what do you know, there wasn't a huge improvement. The M3 stopped from 60 mph in a previous test on these tires (Yokohama Advan Neova AD07s) in 109 ft. Last week it recorded a best stop of 107.6 feet and settled consistently at 108 feet. More importantly it could have repeated this test all day. Repeated stops from 60 mph don't approach overheating the system. In fact, it takes a few runs to get the pads up to temperature so the first few stops were longer than stock -- a compromise made by high-temperature pad material.
This result does speak to the fact that Stoptech's brakes maintain the M3's stock front-to-rear brake proportioning -- something which is commonly overlooked in many aftermarket kits. This balancing act is crucial to proper brake performance.
The real test will be during aggressive street driving which is what the Axxis Ultimate pads we're using were designed for. Look for further updates after we've had the M3 in the mountains.
Also, the M3's brake pad wear warning light is still on because the installer thought the aftermarket pads wouldn't work with the stock sensor. We've since been told that it will and are planning to reinstall the sensor later this week. Check back here for updates.
Josh Jacquot, Senior road test editor @ 59,202 miles
07-31-2008, 11:50 PM
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Interesting info. I'm about to upgrade my brake too. Seems like a lot of StopTech user here, but is anyone here got Endless front + rear set? I think they are one of the best, any opinions welcome.
08-01-2008, 08:08 AM
#56
Originally Posted by Robert_K
Cause I garuntee that 99% of StopTech owner have several sets of pads for their daily and race use! 99% of owner looking at the StopTech kit(s) are buying them cause thier OEM/Brembo brakes just don't cut it on an auto-x course, road/track race, HPDE NASA & SCCA events, or for their time-attack car. So go buy that PopCharger that is "performance" base.
Any stock Z brakes would be fine for auto-x use.
08-03-2008, 01:47 PM
#58
Originally Posted by ReV2Red
So in essence, if your going to buy a BBK from a manufacturer, you'd best buy the front and rear, assuming they have done there homework. No?
Stoptech offers 3 front calieprs. One for the 2003-2007 rear brakes. One for the 2007-2008 rear brakes, and one for the Brembo rear brakes. Each rear caliper has it's own rear bias. When you order you tell them which rear brakes you have and they send the correct front application.
08-08-2008, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by wheatz
You made some great points. I have no problems with stoptech, but I just want people to do a little research before saying "If it's not stoptech, then it's crap".
If people want generic calipers made in china, then stoptech is a great choice. If you want race-proven technology by companies using their own caliper technology, then there are better choices than stoptech.
If people want generic calipers made in china, then stoptech is a great choice. If you want race-proven technology by companies using their own caliper technology, then there are better choices than stoptech.
08-08-2008, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DMK
Funny thing is that the AP BBK you buy for the 350Z isn't even the same ones they use in any of their racing cars.
2. actually not entirely true anyway - there are calipers that AP offers that are strictly for street/club use, and then are more motorsport oriented calipers as well. Both are used on the Z application, depending on the kit selected
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