Question concerning my built NA heads!(Richie, Nathan?)
04-03-2006, 12:39 PM
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Question concerning my built NA heads!(Richie, Nathan?)
As some of you know, i currently have a set of heads at the machine shop currently waiting to get built. I just had them do a pressure test and clean, 3 angle valve job, and full inspection. Following is measuring clearances and they're awaiting on the new cams which i'm still undecided with(Looking for something with 270+ duration). There are still some things i'm not sure if i should proceed with:
-Should i get them to port the VQ heads? Would there be a nice advantage to it?(Not price wise but performance)
-I'm going for a Ferrea valvetrain set. Probably looking into getting flat top valves for compression bump. Would it be a good idea using ferrea valves with OEM bottom end(primarily the pistons)? What kind of compression bump would i be looking at?
-What would be max SAFE amount of lift on cams with OEM pistons?
-Would the Nismo VTC pulley be a good idea to buy here? What's its purpose?
-I'd love to rev higher once the heads are in and with the modifications on the head only i'd be afraid of a spun rod bearing at higher revs on stock block. What can be my max safe limit on the OEM bottom end?
-Any other suggestions?
BTW: I will be using a UTEC for engine management.
-Should i get them to port the VQ heads? Would there be a nice advantage to it?(Not price wise but performance)
-I'm going for a Ferrea valvetrain set. Probably looking into getting flat top valves for compression bump. Would it be a good idea using ferrea valves with OEM bottom end(primarily the pistons)? What kind of compression bump would i be looking at?
-What would be max SAFE amount of lift on cams with OEM pistons?
-Would the Nismo VTC pulley be a good idea to buy here? What's its purpose?
-I'd love to rev higher once the heads are in and with the modifications on the head only i'd be afraid of a spun rod bearing at higher revs on stock block. What can be my max safe limit on the OEM bottom end?
-Any other suggestions?
BTW: I will be using a UTEC for engine management.
04-03-2006, 01:00 PM
#2
you should find out the valve clearances and mill the head, its a cheap way of raising the compression, if you are staying NA i would mill them enough to raise it to 11.3-11.5 to 1
make sure you are staying NA and this will definetly raise your hp up
just my two cents sixto...
make sure you are staying NA and this will definetly raise your hp up
just my two cents sixto...
04-03-2006, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by audiblemayhem
you should find out the valve clearances and mill the head, its a cheap way of raising the compression, if you are staying NA i would mill them enough to raise it to 11.3-11.5 to 1
make sure you are staying NA and this will definetly raise your hp up
just my two cents sixto...
make sure you are staying NA and this will definetly raise your hp up
just my two cents sixto...
Plus i'd rather bulletproof everything if it's all dissasembled.
04-03-2006, 03:46 PM
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Hi Zexy,
So good to know that another N/A nut is building up a N/A beast now!!! I would love to share what I know with you!
With the portings, I did have some done, but they didn't take out a lot of materials though, more like making the intake and exhaust port smoother, that's all, because I didn't pay a big bill for that part (and yes, I asked them to do that).
I reckon that's a good idea to get flat top valves though... I should have got those, but I already have a set of high compression pistons in the car already and Ferrea valves are really good quality valves. I am not too sure how much compression bump will those flat top valves give though, but gotta have at least 7 c.c. increment to reach 11.5:1 compression and by the look at the stock valves, the grooves aren't large to make up to 7 c.c. though even if they are flat... but IF I can use VK45 titanium valves, I would have... I know those exhaust valves can get fit in nicely, but those VK45 intake valves are like 1mm smaller... So if you go for VK45 exhaust valve, that will be sweet too! And remember, go for the STD size valves if you want to stay N/A.
I think with the OEM pistons, it is better to go up to only 11mm lift, but I reckon Peter (Nathan) is using 11.5mm or 12mm lift on his race engine, but again, he is using nismo heads and other components... I stayed with 11mm lift because I was told the clearance was very very tight already.
The Nismo VTC pulleys are used to maintain the low end torque with those wild cams and also making the max. torque happening a bit earlier at the rpm range. You will need to make sure that your after market computer can adjust the cam profiles to get the benefits from this mod. Utec hasn't released cam control modules yet, right now, only motec has this function to do so.
Your valvetrain can DEFINITELY allow you to rev higher... that's no doubt about it... and while you have your engine out, have your rod bolt swapped out to a stronger item, and I am sure you can go 7200rpm to 7400rpm without any problem! And if money allows, go for a set of light weight rods like what I have... Carrillo's rods are lighter than stock and they help if you want to rev fast.. my rev goes real fast now compare to the stock engine because my bottom end parts, such as pistons and rods are all lighter than stock items now. You shouldn't have problem revving to 7500rpm with the standard bearings because I have done that many times with just the rod bolts swapped, and when I got the engine rebuilt, the rod bearings are still like new! but if you want to go any higher, like 8K rpm, make sure that the oil routes are done up (with stronger oil pump, 2005 model will do the job) and better balance the bottom end to add an extra assurance. Nizpro modified my oil route at the bottom end, but seriously, I don't know what they have done though... so I cannot share that bit with you...
PS. Just my personal experience here... with cams and motec computer + rod bolts, the idle can be tuned fine and I didn't have any stalling issues if I have A/C turned on or anything at idle speed 800rpm... but after the rebuild with higher compression pistons and lighter engine compoents, it seems that I gotta bump the idle up to 900rpm (a lot louder than 800rpm) to do the same thing and if I stay at 800rpm, the car will stall out if I depress the clutch pedal at 2000rpm when coming to a dead stop...
hope that helps mate!!!
cheers,
richie
So good to know that another N/A nut is building up a N/A beast now!!! I would love to share what I know with you!
With the portings, I did have some done, but they didn't take out a lot of materials though, more like making the intake and exhaust port smoother, that's all, because I didn't pay a big bill for that part (and yes, I asked them to do that).
I reckon that's a good idea to get flat top valves though... I should have got those, but I already have a set of high compression pistons in the car already and Ferrea valves are really good quality valves. I am not too sure how much compression bump will those flat top valves give though, but gotta have at least 7 c.c. increment to reach 11.5:1 compression and by the look at the stock valves, the grooves aren't large to make up to 7 c.c. though even if they are flat... but IF I can use VK45 titanium valves, I would have... I know those exhaust valves can get fit in nicely, but those VK45 intake valves are like 1mm smaller... So if you go for VK45 exhaust valve, that will be sweet too! And remember, go for the STD size valves if you want to stay N/A.
I think with the OEM pistons, it is better to go up to only 11mm lift, but I reckon Peter (Nathan) is using 11.5mm or 12mm lift on his race engine, but again, he is using nismo heads and other components... I stayed with 11mm lift because I was told the clearance was very very tight already.
The Nismo VTC pulleys are used to maintain the low end torque with those wild cams and also making the max. torque happening a bit earlier at the rpm range. You will need to make sure that your after market computer can adjust the cam profiles to get the benefits from this mod. Utec hasn't released cam control modules yet, right now, only motec has this function to do so.
Your valvetrain can DEFINITELY allow you to rev higher... that's no doubt about it... and while you have your engine out, have your rod bolt swapped out to a stronger item, and I am sure you can go 7200rpm to 7400rpm without any problem! And if money allows, go for a set of light weight rods like what I have... Carrillo's rods are lighter than stock and they help if you want to rev fast.. my rev goes real fast now compare to the stock engine because my bottom end parts, such as pistons and rods are all lighter than stock items now. You shouldn't have problem revving to 7500rpm with the standard bearings because I have done that many times with just the rod bolts swapped, and when I got the engine rebuilt, the rod bearings are still like new! but if you want to go any higher, like 8K rpm, make sure that the oil routes are done up (with stronger oil pump, 2005 model will do the job) and better balance the bottom end to add an extra assurance. Nizpro modified my oil route at the bottom end, but seriously, I don't know what they have done though... so I cannot share that bit with you...
PS. Just my personal experience here... with cams and motec computer + rod bolts, the idle can be tuned fine and I didn't have any stalling issues if I have A/C turned on or anything at idle speed 800rpm... but after the rebuild with higher compression pistons and lighter engine compoents, it seems that I gotta bump the idle up to 900rpm (a lot louder than 800rpm) to do the same thing and if I stay at 800rpm, the car will stall out if I depress the clutch pedal at 2000rpm when coming to a dead stop...
hope that helps mate!!!
cheers,
richie
Last edited by Z350Lover; 04-03-2006 at 03:50 PM.
04-03-2006, 04:53 PM
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Thanks Richie,
I hope TurboXS does get to create a program to control and adjust the VTC function. For now the MoTeC is the only computer on the market that does the job but i have no MoTeC money! TurboXS should jump on that idea quick. Does that mean i should stay with the OEM pulley or should i go ahead and purchase the Nismo one? What exactly does this pulley have. More adjustability for timing?
I guess the Tomeis are a good choice for the OEM block. If you're running higher compression aftermarket pistons, the grooves are probably deeper for max lift and you're having tight clearances, maybe i should stay with a lower lift camshaft.
I am also awaiting response for specs from the Espirit camshaft.
I hope TurboXS does get to create a program to control and adjust the VTC function. For now the MoTeC is the only computer on the market that does the job but i have no MoTeC money! TurboXS should jump on that idea quick.
Does that mean i should stay with the OEM pulley or should i go ahead and purchase the Nismo one? What exactly does this pulley have. More adjustability for timing?I guess the Tomeis are a good choice for the OEM block. If you're running higher compression aftermarket pistons, the grooves are probably deeper for max lift and you're having tight clearances, maybe i should stay with a lower lift camshaft.
I am also awaiting response for specs from the Espirit camshaft.
04-03-2006, 05:08 PM
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it gives the tuners few more degrees to play with... but I am not too sure what exactly it does though to be honest... it is all about cam timing... and I always have "VTC Intake" error codes from the Consult II readings I think it is because the stock ECU senses that the VTC is operating out of its operation range.. 
I think Esprit camshafts are similar to tomei camshafts.... and tomei might also be a cheaper option to go with... many people have experiences tuning tomei cams already, such as Mark @ SGP... they should be able to help you out if you have any problem!
cheers,
richie
I think Esprit camshafts are similar to tomei camshafts.... and tomei might also be a cheaper option to go with... many people have experiences tuning tomei cams already, such as Mark @ SGP... they should be able to help you out if you have any problem!
cheers,
richie
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04-04-2006, 08:13 PM
#8
Originally Posted by Zexy
As some of you know, i currently have a set of heads at the machine shop currently waiting to get built. I just had them do a pressure test and clean, 3 angle valve job, and full inspection. Following is measuring clearances and they're awaiting on the new cams which i'm still undecided with(Looking for something with 270+ duration). There are still some things i'm not sure if i should proceed with:
-Should i get them to port the VQ heads? Would there be a nice advantage to it?(Not price wise but performance)
-I'm going for a Ferrea valvetrain set. Probably looking into getting flat top valves for compression bump. Would it be a good idea using ferrea valves with OEM bottom end(primarily the pistons)? What kind of compression bump would i be looking at?
-What would be max SAFE amount of lift on cams with OEM pistons?
-Would the Nismo VTC pulley be a good idea to buy here? What's its purpose?
-I'd love to rev higher once the heads are in and with the modifications on the head only i'd be afraid of a spun rod bearing at higher revs on stock block. What can be my max safe limit on the OEM bottom end?
-Any other suggestions?
BTW: I will be using a UTEC for engine management.
-Should i get them to port the VQ heads? Would there be a nice advantage to it?(Not price wise but performance)
-I'm going for a Ferrea valvetrain set. Probably looking into getting flat top valves for compression bump. Would it be a good idea using ferrea valves with OEM bottom end(primarily the pistons)? What kind of compression bump would i be looking at?
-What would be max SAFE amount of lift on cams with OEM pistons?
-Would the Nismo VTC pulley be a good idea to buy here? What's its purpose?
-I'd love to rev higher once the heads are in and with the modifications on the head only i'd be afraid of a spun rod bearing at higher revs on stock block. What can be my max safe limit on the OEM bottom end?
-Any other suggestions?
BTW: I will be using a UTEC for engine management.
My reasoning is there will be no perfomance gain other than the superior duel valve spring araingement that Ferrea use that allows for higher lift & revs.
If you dont do the bottom end just use the Nismo springs on the stock valves.
As richie has stated, the VTC sprockets will give a good increase in tq in the 3 to 4 K range but @ 5k the ECU will have backed of the advance to about 35deg & under 30deg @ 6+K.
I beleive the stock VTC sprockets can be modified to acheive the extra 10deg of advance but the cam angle sensors will pick up this extra advance & may throw a CEL. But as you will be using a UTEC no problems.
With regards to the Utecs inability to control VTC solinoid I also dont think this is a problem as the OE ECU will be controling the cam advance with very similar advances at similar revs as to what the Nismo ECU would be doing to there big cams.
If richie will post the Nismo VTC diagram you will understand what I am saying.
The stock cyl head has a inlet port size of 32mm , Increasing this to 33mm & with 1mm o'size valves will only increase the air flow at 11mm lift by about 15cfm. ( 250 up to 265 cfm ) but more than 30 with 13+mm lift cams but they require larger diameter cam buckets ( lifters) & new pistons with bigger valve relief cutouts
To summerise: There is very little to be gained by going the Stock size Ferrea route on an NA motor unless there is major & expensive other modifications
Last edited by Nathan; 04-04-2006 at 08:16 PM.
04-04-2006, 08:29 PM
#9
I forgot to mention the Ferrea flat top steel valves will also weigh more ( not much) than the stock valves as the stock valve has a 6mm stem reduced to 5.5 at the retainer end with alloy retainers, where the Ferrea is 6mm the full length & has larger collets.
Dont skim the heads to raise compression as the lower inlet manifold will be missaligned not to mention valve to piston clearance with your new cams
Dont skim the heads to raise compression as the lower inlet manifold will be missaligned not to mention valve to piston clearance with your new cams
04-04-2006, 08:36 PM
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Thanks for the help Peter. Regarding going with the Ferrea valves, i wanted to take that route for the flap top setup for increased compression? Doesn't it make sense? Plus i'd rather bulletproof everything back together if it's all apart?
04-04-2006, 10:20 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Zexy
Thanks for the help Peter. Regarding going with the Ferrea valves, i wanted to take that route for the flap top setup for increased compression? Doesn't it make sense? Plus i'd rather bulletproof everything back together if it's all apart?
62.65cc for 10.3 CR .
Just looking at the dish in the top of the valves I would estimate less that erea to be less than 1/8 cc x 4 valves = .5cc.
Assuming my guess is correct, your CR with flat top valves would be 10.38
Not enough to make any difference
While the heads, cams, chain ext can all be replaced with the engine in place
its not that longer to remove the motor.
Better IMO to pull the motor & while the heads off, slip in a set of Eagle rods & a set of 11. + CR pistons. Spend the money you have put aside for head & valve work on a set of Nismo Spec 2 Cams, add the nismo valve springs. Put a 255 Walbro in the tank + a good dyno tuner for the Utec & you will have a good safe 7500 RPM, 335 to 350 crank HP motor. (subject to your exhaust set up)
I dont know what the full Ferrea valve & spring kit costs but it would be interesting to compare costs with the rods & pistons. Maybe Sharrif would be able to quoate
Last edited by Nathan; 04-04-2006 at 11:34 PM.
04-05-2006, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by audiblemayhem
you should find out the valve clearances and mill the head, its a cheap way of raising the compression, if you are staying NA i would mill them enough to raise it to 11.3-11.5 to 1
forget the custom valves - they will net you a next to zero difference - not to mention by nature you'll be installing a heavier valve. You are talking a minute minute difference - not worth the trouble. Maybe you'll gain 1/10th of a point of CR
VTC pullies operate very simply - UTEC cannot control them yet, maybe in the future, but the stock ecu can still run them from everything I've seen. Would be nice to dial in exact advance via the UTEC, but hopefully that will come in the future (I need this for my car!)
As for building higher CR - do it with pistons or don't bother IMHO - at least then you'll be able to have a block that can keep pace with the head from an RPM standpoint.
Esprit cams havea 272 duration...I forget what lift is though. Again, not enough difference vs the Tomei. JUN has cams they can build that are nuts from a lift standpoint - walks all over the Tomei, but I don't know if they will work with stock pistons and I think they recommend actually getting rid of the VTC altogether
04-05-2006, 01:44 PM
#14
Originally Posted by audiblemayhem
what are the valve clearances off the top of the piston in stock form...??
thanks in advance
thanks in advance
Camshafts.
On old style Inline pushrod motors, skimming the cylinder head was a cheap & effective way of raising compresion. But not on OHC motors & especially V motors.
04-05-2006, 03:30 PM
#15
i used to race all motor hondas (pre fast and the furious) back in 95-96
we just yanked the head off and milled them and threw them back on and picked up a half a second in the quarter with minor self porting and matchporting... thats why i said that.
can you use the 13mm cams on stock bottom end. if so that would mean at least 2mm clearance.
i figure if you milled the head .040 it would set the compression right where you want and you would just have to mill the lower intake runners the same amount to compensate...
hell of a lot cheaper than touching the bottom end because NA, the stock pistons and rods (with upgraded rod bolts) should be sufficient
i love the feel of fast all motor cars and i am tryin to get mine faster and faster, i actually have a plenum that i cut all the runners out of, it is just 6 inlet holes straight down. i put it on my car without the utec and lost some serious power. now i have the utec and tuner wb it is probably going back on my car next week and tune it then get it dynoed. i know i will lose some torque but the hp gains should be nice. racing these cars i am usually up in the higher rpms anyways... i will keep ya updated
i will show you a top secret picture of the plenum when i first did it, this was just an experiment and used all hand tools at my house....
i will let you know next week how it all works out, basically i just sawed the whole top part off the lower plenum so i cut the runners off, i used some epoxy sealant to seal the holes so i could throw it on my car for a short time
we just yanked the head off and milled them and threw them back on and picked up a half a second in the quarter with minor self porting and matchporting... thats why i said that.
can you use the 13mm cams on stock bottom end. if so that would mean at least 2mm clearance.
i figure if you milled the head .040 it would set the compression right where you want and you would just have to mill the lower intake runners the same amount to compensate...
hell of a lot cheaper than touching the bottom end because NA, the stock pistons and rods (with upgraded rod bolts) should be sufficient
i love the feel of fast all motor cars and i am tryin to get mine faster and faster, i actually have a plenum that i cut all the runners out of, it is just 6 inlet holes straight down. i put it on my car without the utec and lost some serious power. now i have the utec and tuner wb it is probably going back on my car next week and tune it then get it dynoed. i know i will lose some torque but the hp gains should be nice. racing these cars i am usually up in the higher rpms anyways... i will keep ya updated
i will show you a top secret picture of the plenum when i first did it, this was just an experiment and used all hand tools at my house....
i will let you know next week how it all works out, basically i just sawed the whole top part off the lower plenum so i cut the runners off, i used some epoxy sealant to seal the holes so i could throw it on my car for a short time
Last edited by Audible Mayhem; 04-05-2006 at 03:35 PM.
what about really big spark plugs.... ??
04-05-2006, 05:51 PM
#19
Originally Posted by audiblemayhem
i used to race all motor hondas (pre fast and the furious) back in 95-96
we just yanked the head off and milled them and threw them back on and picked up a half a second in the quarter with minor self porting and matchporting... thats why i said that.
can you use the 13mm cams on stock bottom end. if so that would mean at least 2mm clearance.
i figure if you milled the head .040 it would set the compression right where you want and you would just have to mill the lower intake runners the same amount to compensate...
hell of a lot cheaper than touching the bottom end because NA, the stock pistons and rods (with upgraded rod bolts) should be sufficient
i love the feel of fast all motor cars and i am tryin to get mine faster and faster, i actually have a plenum that i cut all the runners out of, it is just 6 inlet holes straight down. i put it on my car without the utec and lost some serious power. now i have the utec and tuner wb it is probably going back on my car next week and tune it then get it dynoed. i know i will lose some torque but the hp gains should be nice. racing these cars i am usually up in the higher rpms anyways... i will keep ya updated
i will show you a top secret picture of the plenum when i first did it, this was just an experiment and used all hand tools at my house....
i will let you know next week how it all works out, basically i just sawed the whole top part off the lower plenum so i cut the runners off, i used some epoxy sealant to seal the holes so i could throw it on my car for a short time
we just yanked the head off and milled them and threw them back on and picked up a half a second in the quarter with minor self porting and matchporting... thats why i said that.
can you use the 13mm cams on stock bottom end. if so that would mean at least 2mm clearance.
i figure if you milled the head .040 it would set the compression right where you want and you would just have to mill the lower intake runners the same amount to compensate...
hell of a lot cheaper than touching the bottom end because NA, the stock pistons and rods (with upgraded rod bolts) should be sufficient
i love the feel of fast all motor cars and i am tryin to get mine faster and faster, i actually have a plenum that i cut all the runners out of, it is just 6 inlet holes straight down. i put it on my car without the utec and lost some serious power. now i have the utec and tuner wb it is probably going back on my car next week and tune it then get it dynoed. i know i will lose some torque but the hp gains should be nice. racing these cars i am usually up in the higher rpms anyways... i will keep ya updated
i will show you a top secret picture of the plenum when i first did it, this was just an experiment and used all hand tools at my house....
i will let you know next week how it all works out, basically i just sawed the whole top part off the lower plenum so i cut the runners off, i used some epoxy sealant to seal the holes so i could throw it on my car for a short time
You mention rod bolts, the motor has to be pulled to fit them. If you are going to run big revs the bolts are a miniumum requirement. While its out pop in some pistons.
I'm sure Z1 Adam could help out with a good price.
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