VQ Oil Analysis and Info
06-28-2007, 07:57 PM
#61
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Not sure how accurate your test's were... But
http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf
I know many people that use Royal Purple.. And people that have TAKEN apart there engine's with 100k+ with just using RP and there engine's were in such good condition it wasen't even funny...
http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf
I know many people that use Royal Purple.. And people that have TAKEN apart there engine's with 100k+ with just using RP and there engine's were in such good condition it wasen't even funny...
Last edited by Breakin Newz; 06-28-2007 at 08:02 PM.
06-29-2007, 09:50 AM
#62
Originally Posted by Breakin Newz
Not sure how accurate your test's were...
First, these aren't MY tests. As I said in the first post- these are conducted by either Blackstone Labs or Dyson Analysis. Blackstone is the largest oil testing facility in the country and handles oil analysis for a number of commercial fleets in addition to the individual consumer. Dyson Analysis is owned and run by Terry Dyson, one of the most well-respected and sought after tribologists in the world. As an example, Audi has recently finished contracting him for the formulation of an oil to handle the fuel dilution issue their DI 4.2L V8 has. The validity and accuracy of their tests are without question.
Originally Posted by Breakin Newz
In their paper, "The Timken Lubricant Test - 1932 to 1972", presented at the 40th annual meeting of the National
Lubricating Grease Institute, D.V. Culp and J.E. Leiser of the Timken Company reviewed the application and
significance of the OK Load Test with EP lubricants.
Two items discussed in the paper are of particular interest. The hypothesis that gear oils which have higher Timken OK values will provide better scoring protection for gears and bearings was developed in the early 1930's.
Recent developments in the chemical aspects of EP additives indicate that this is no longer true. In fact, it now appears that many of the more modern type chemical additives, particularly those successfully being used in the MIL-L-2105B type oils, have shown improved performance in preventing scoring in high temperature gear and bearing applications although they show a very decreased Timken load as compared to the leaded type or SCL type gear oils.
The authors also point out the lack of a direct across-the-board correlation between high Timken EP values and increased performance characteristics. It also appears that there is little correlation between Timken test results
and other EP tests results, such as the Falex, the four-Ball tester and the more recently used FZG gear type tester.
The significance of the observations made by the Timken Company concerning the limitations of the OK Load test in predicting actual performance of EP oils should be recognized when making a product recommendation. A proven record of satisfactory performance in similar applications is of greater importance in recommending a product than merely selecting one whose Timken OK Load Test rating meets the specification. Documentation of actual successful performance of EP oils is still the most valid way to support the claim that an oil will provide the
required protection of gears and bearings.
According to the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers, the Timken test is "questionable for use in evaluating levels of EP".
Lubricating Grease Institute, D.V. Culp and J.E. Leiser of the Timken Company reviewed the application and
significance of the OK Load Test with EP lubricants.
Two items discussed in the paper are of particular interest. The hypothesis that gear oils which have higher Timken OK values will provide better scoring protection for gears and bearings was developed in the early 1930's.
Recent developments in the chemical aspects of EP additives indicate that this is no longer true. In fact, it now appears that many of the more modern type chemical additives, particularly those successfully being used in the MIL-L-2105B type oils, have shown improved performance in preventing scoring in high temperature gear and bearing applications although they show a very decreased Timken load as compared to the leaded type or SCL type gear oils.
The authors also point out the lack of a direct across-the-board correlation between high Timken EP values and increased performance characteristics. It also appears that there is little correlation between Timken test results
and other EP tests results, such as the Falex, the four-Ball tester and the more recently used FZG gear type tester.
The significance of the observations made by the Timken Company concerning the limitations of the OK Load test in predicting actual performance of EP oils should be recognized when making a product recommendation. A proven record of satisfactory performance in similar applications is of greater importance in recommending a product than merely selecting one whose Timken OK Load Test rating meets the specification. Documentation of actual successful performance of EP oils is still the most valid way to support the claim that an oil will provide the
required protection of gears and bearings.
According to the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers, the Timken test is "questionable for use in evaluating levels of EP".
and also reported in Lubes n' Greases Magazine
Now, if you know anything about the old test sequence of ASTM D2782, which is the timken EP test, then you would also know that they did the test wrong. And here is the response of Street Commodore in regards to their article after being called out on improperly using the timken EP test as a measure of oil performance:
you are right this test has very little to do with oil performance and should never have been published, we also entered the metric system 40 years ago! The primary role of lubrication is to keep parts apart and maintain oil integrity, not see what happens when metal to metal takes place, a symptom of some other problem...
Testing to reveal actual oil performance would have been beneficial, this may involve: testing oil chemical and physical properties , inspection (microscopic particle examination) of oil debris for wear modes/indicators and testing oil cleanliness to established ISO standards. These are the true tests of oil/machine performance.
For our application the best thing you can do is to use the correct viscosity (quality stable oil, may or may not be synth) and change out the oil regularly. We do not change oil out because it has 'broken down', we change it out to remove normal wear debris, the oil chemical and physical properties at this point should still be good.
so long life oils may hold there spec (synth for eg.) but you are still pumping all that wear debris through your bearings!!
BTW oils that 'polish' or chemically etch components when put through studies of MPE and ISO cleanliness can actually initially create a lot of wear debris before the ISO codes settle down.. go figure.
Testing to reveal actual oil performance would have been beneficial, this may involve: testing oil chemical and physical properties , inspection (microscopic particle examination) of oil debris for wear modes/indicators and testing oil cleanliness to established ISO standards. These are the true tests of oil/machine performance.
For our application the best thing you can do is to use the correct viscosity (quality stable oil, may or may not be synth) and change out the oil regularly. We do not change oil out because it has 'broken down', we change it out to remove normal wear debris, the oil chemical and physical properties at this point should still be good.
so long life oils may hold there spec (synth for eg.) but you are still pumping all that wear debris through your bearings!!
BTW oils that 'polish' or chemically etch components when put through studies of MPE and ISO cleanliness can actually initially create a lot of wear debris before the ISO codes settle down.. go figure.
Originally Posted by Breakin Newz
I know many people that use Royal Purple.. And people that have TAKEN apart there engine's with 100k+ with just using RP and there engine's were in such good condition it wasen't even funny...
Make sure you check out the first page in its entirety. There is a lot of good info to be found there, with more explanation on some of the things covered in the two links posted. And don't be swayed by the timken load tests, there's a reason only late night info-mertials for products like Dura-Lube use it, and professional oil blenders don't.
Will
06-29-2007, 12:09 PM
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Interesting.. Might have to do some of my own oil test and see what I come up with.... Kind of wierd how RP doesn't work very well with vq35 engines...
And thanks for the welcome! Nice to be here, I am here because I am making a decision on my next car purchase... It's either the 350z or the 300c... Decisions Decisions! (Sorry for the off-topic)
And thanks for the welcome! Nice to be here, I am here because I am making a decision on my next car purchase... It's either the 350z or the 300c... Decisions Decisions! (Sorry for the off-topic)
06-29-2007, 12:34 PM
#64
Originally Posted by Breakin Newz
Interesting.. Might have to do some of my own oil test and see what I come up with.... Kind of wierd how RP doesn't work very well with vq35 engines...
And thanks for the welcome! Nice to be here, I am here because I am making a decision on my next car purchase... It's either the 350z or the 300c... Decisions Decisions! (Sorry for the off-topic)
And thanks for the welcome! Nice to be here, I am here because I am making a decision on my next car purchase... It's either the 350z or the 300c... Decisions Decisions! (Sorry for the off-topic)
Wow, 300C or Z... totally different cars. I guess it just depends on what priorities you look for in a car. The SRT8 300C is pretty awesome, but I think the Z looks better. Not to mention handling, but will you ever want to track the car? I'm sure you'll like whatever you go with, they're both very different cars but both very nice.
If you get a 300C, check the site I linked, there are a couple of UOA's done from the Chrysler Hemi. I don't remember if RP was one of them, but you'll see which of the tested oils hold up better in that engine.
Will
07-06-2007, 02:01 PM
#65
I put together an average of German Castrol Syntec 0W-30 UOA's from the VQ, and added it to the comparison charts for reference. I don't plan on adding any more discontinued oils to the chart, but the GC is so highly regarded and referenced, I thought some might want to see how our current crop of oils compare.
For those who don't know, Castrol sold a 0W-30 weight of their Syntec synthetic oil that was made in Germany. The oil was green and smelled like gummy bears. Seriously. It was the only Syntec sold here in the U.S. that said, "Made in Germany", on the back of the bottle. It was a PAO (group 4) oil that used a lot of Calcium additive. It was a very good oil, and probably the best off-the-shelf oil you could buy. It has dissapeared from the shelves and is very hard to find. It appears that Castrol is no longer importing it, and the current crop of 0W-30 bottles are all made from the same U.S. stock as the rest of their line. Unfortunately, the Castrol sold over seas has tested much better than our domestic stuff, so the current 0W-30 is not of the same quality as the old GC oil.
So, for those looking for a suitable replacement to the beloved GC 0W-30, the average results from 3 different engines are posted in the comparison chart to make finding a replacement easier. Just look at the GC results and compare to other oils to find the one you think is the closest. I would say the Amsoil TSO and Schaeffer's 5W-30, but those are going to be a dealer supplied oil. For another off-the-shelf oil I would look at the Pennzoil Platinum 10W-30 if you can get by with a 10W oil where you live, or the M1 0W-40.
Will
For those who don't know, Castrol sold a 0W-30 weight of their Syntec synthetic oil that was made in Germany. The oil was green and smelled like gummy bears. Seriously. It was the only Syntec sold here in the U.S. that said, "Made in Germany", on the back of the bottle. It was a PAO (group 4) oil that used a lot of Calcium additive. It was a very good oil, and probably the best off-the-shelf oil you could buy. It has dissapeared from the shelves and is very hard to find. It appears that Castrol is no longer importing it, and the current crop of 0W-30 bottles are all made from the same U.S. stock as the rest of their line. Unfortunately, the Castrol sold over seas has tested much better than our domestic stuff, so the current 0W-30 is not of the same quality as the old GC oil.
So, for those looking for a suitable replacement to the beloved GC 0W-30, the average results from 3 different engines are posted in the comparison chart to make finding a replacement easier. Just look at the GC results and compare to other oils to find the one you think is the closest. I would say the Amsoil TSO and Schaeffer's 5W-30, but those are going to be a dealer supplied oil. For another off-the-shelf oil I would look at the Pennzoil Platinum 10W-30 if you can get by with a 10W oil where you live, or the M1 0W-40.
Will
07-15-2007, 09:43 PM
#66
Just an update on Amsoil TSO. It has ben one of the best performing oils in the VQ so far, but Amsoil has just changed the spec of this oil. It now uses a lot more magnesium, less calcium, and some more boron. That sounds pretty good from an additive standpoint, but the big news is that it is now an exceptionally thin 30 wt. oil. Blackstone actually classifies it as a 20 wt. oil because it is only 1/10 of a centistroke into the SAE classification of a 30 wt. oil. Thin oils have traditionally not done well in the VQ, so I'm looking to see if anyone has used the new formulation yet.
I will try and differentiate the old and new TSO samples that come in. When the old formulation eventually disapears from dealer inventory, then I'll eliminate the TSO test column.
Will
I will try and differentiate the old and new TSO samples that come in. When the old formulation eventually disapears from dealer inventory, then I'll eliminate the TSO test column.
Will
07-21-2007, 10:38 AM
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sorry, but after all this reading I got confused. for normal road use which oil do you actually recommend, i thought i was pretty car intelligent until i attempted to read this entire post, it was a little over my head.
i normally change my oil every 4k, i live in New Mexico, 5300 altitude, and drive conservative most of the time, with a little over 60k miles on the car
i normally change my oil every 4k, i live in New Mexico, 5300 altitude, and drive conservative most of the time, with a little over 60k miles on the car
07-22-2007, 01:11 PM
#68
Originally Posted by Kazuma
sorry, but after all this reading I got confused. for normal road use which oil do you actually recommend, i thought i was pretty car intelligent until i attempted to read this entire post, it was a little over my head.
i normally change my oil every 4k, i live in New Mexico, 5300 altitude, and drive conservative most of the time, with a little over 60k miles on the car
i normally change my oil every 4k, i live in New Mexico, 5300 altitude, and drive conservative most of the time, with a little over 60k miles on the car
Will
07-22-2007, 11:51 PM
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I tried google for Schaeffer's 7000 5W-30 and didnt come up with much... Manfacturers web site says that the closest place to get it is 80 miles away... any good place to order it online? ( I just used the Amsoil TSO too, though I dont know if it's the new batch or not, but I put about 3000 miles on it this week and hope to put about 5000 before I change it out - how do I know if it's the new batch or not?)
07-23-2007, 12:21 AM
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There's a link on the manufacturer's site to order, but you have to call.
"Schaeffer's Order Info
Schaeffer's offers many more products than the ones I have listed on my site. You can obtain product prices and order any Schaeffer's product by calling me at 321-228-3641 or sending e-mail to info@ronsrepair.com. "
"Schaeffer's Order Info
Schaeffer's offers many more products than the ones I have listed on my site. You can obtain product prices and order any Schaeffer's product by calling me at 321-228-3641 or sending e-mail to info@ronsrepair.com. "
07-24-2007, 11:19 AM
#71
There are several dealers for Schaeffer's on the bob is the oil guy forum. Schaeffer's is a fleet sales blender first, so individual customer sales aren't the priority. This isn't to say that they have crappy service, this is just why they don't have a very friendly ordering service online for their products. Check the BITOG for dealers, they have good pricing.
I haven't been able to figure out how to tell if the TSO is of the old or new formula. A UOA will let us know for certain, but I don't know if they changed the bottle design. Dates or batch codes would be nice, but I haven't taken the time to research them.
Shushiakary, I never recieved the attachment of the 300V sample you e-mailed to me. I e-mailed back, but maybe you didn't get it. Any chance you still have it and can attach it here? If not, I think I'll bite the bullet and use it this fall/winter and see if the hype is worth the price and post a UOA.
Will
I haven't been able to figure out how to tell if the TSO is of the old or new formula. A UOA will let us know for certain, but I don't know if they changed the bottle design. Dates or batch codes would be nice, but I haven't taken the time to research them.
Shushiakary, I never recieved the attachment of the 300V sample you e-mailed to me. I e-mailed back, but maybe you didn't get it. Any chance you still have it and can attach it here? If not, I think I'll bite the bullet and use it this fall/winter and see if the hype is worth the price and post a UOA.
Will
07-24-2007, 12:03 PM
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Excellent post. Hats off to you Will, its always a pleasure to read your posts. 
Based on my quick and dirty comparison, the Castrol GTX 5W-30 that I have been using has fared quite well and should do well based on my geography. I stick with frequent oil change intervals of 3K miles and with my medium driving style, I think this should be a good non-synthetic oil.
I have yet to do a track event, but when I do, I might change it to Mobil 1 0W-40 as recommended or maybe even stick to Castrol GTX with a quicker change interval. I was completely taken aback by the difference in different grades of Mobil1. I have to admit I might have missed any pointers about that because I had to scan through this post.
If needed for additional data points, I can send in my oil after next oil change for analysis. Please let me know.
Based on my quick and dirty comparison, the Castrol GTX 5W-30 that I have been using has fared quite well and should do well based on my geography. I stick with frequent oil change intervals of 3K miles and with my medium driving style, I think this should be a good non-synthetic oil.
I have yet to do a track event, but when I do, I might change it to Mobil 1 0W-40 as recommended or maybe even stick to Castrol GTX with a quicker change interval. I was completely taken aback by the difference in different grades of Mobil1. I have to admit I might have missed any pointers about that because I had to scan through this post.
If needed for additional data points, I can send in my oil after next oil change for analysis. Please let me know.
07-24-2007, 12:37 PM
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Sorry you didnt get my attachment email! I didnt get your email back either... so I just took a print screen of it and will post it here (it's not pretty, first oil change was at 1500 miles, then one at 3000 both with regular dino oil, then at 6000 with dino, and at 10,000 with synthetic mobil 1 5w30 at 13000, 16000, 19000, and motul at 22,000 miles or so. The oil put in at the change seen below was motul 8100 and is in the mail for a test as I type (changed at 32000 or so with the amsoil TSO 0w30 which is currently in the car with about 3400 miles on it) and all oil changes got a fresh K&N oil filter 1008):
Last edited by shushikiary; 07-24-2007 at 12:48 PM.
07-25-2007, 06:06 PM
#74
Originally Posted by spacemn_spiff
Excellent post. Hats off to you Will, its always a pleasure to read your posts.
Based on my quick and dirty comparison, the Castrol GTX 5W-30 that I have been using has fared quite well and should do well based on my geography. I stick with frequent oil change intervals of 3K miles and with my medium driving style, I think this should be a good non-synthetic oil.
I have yet to do a track event, but when I do, I might change it to Mobil 1 0W-40 as recommended or maybe even stick to Castrol GTX with a quicker change interval. I was completely taken aback by the difference in different grades of Mobil1. I have to admit I might have missed any pointers about that because I had to scan through this post.
If needed for additional data points, I can send in my oil after next oil change for analysis. Please let me know.
Based on my quick and dirty comparison, the Castrol GTX 5W-30 that I have been using has fared quite well and should do well based on my geography. I stick with frequent oil change intervals of 3K miles and with my medium driving style, I think this should be a good non-synthetic oil.
I have yet to do a track event, but when I do, I might change it to Mobil 1 0W-40 as recommended or maybe even stick to Castrol GTX with a quicker change interval. I was completely taken aback by the difference in different grades of Mobil1. I have to admit I might have missed any pointers about that because I had to scan through this post.
If needed for additional data points, I can send in my oil after next oil change for analysis. Please let me know.
Will
07-25-2007, 06:36 PM
#75
Originally Posted by shushikiary
Sorry you didnt get my attachment email! I didnt get your email back either... so I just took a print screen of it and will post it here (it's not pretty, first oil change was at 1500 miles, then one at 3000 both with regular dino oil, then at 6000 with dino, and at 10,000 with synthetic mobil 1 5w30 at 13000, 16000, 19000, and motul at 22,000 miles or so. The oil put in at the change seen below was motul 8100 and is in the mail for a test as I type (changed at 32000 or so with the amsoil TSO 0w30 which is currently in the car with about 3400 miles on it) and all oil changes got a fresh K&N oil filter 1008)
That is a crazy bad oil sample. I would not recommend this oil for any future use. I have a 300V 5W-30 virgin sample, so I can confirm the BL tech's comments that the 300V oils use a lot of silicon in their formulation, so your filters are fine. This was your eighth oil change, so wear metals are NOT from break-in. Besides the sheer number of changes to remove break-in metals, the M1 you used has a very good additive package of detergents to make a very effective remover of both wear material and sludge from older oil. The extremely high Al, Fe, and Copper wear is alarming for an oil of this caliber, and even the lead was high compared to the recommended oils on the first page of this thread. I wrote at some length about high Ester base oils not being the best for daily-driven, non-tracked cars in this thread:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=motul
And this UOA looks like another example. A good PAO or PAO/ester blend, or even a good G3 with an excellent additive package(AP) is the way to go for most users. The comparison charts on the first page reflect this. Schaeffer's and PP 10W-30 are both "inferior" G3 oils but will outgun this expensive boutique racing oil any day of the week due to the excellent AP they use.
Thanks for posting this and for doing a UOA on the 8100 you used. I look forward to comparing the results. What 8100 weight did you use? The 0W-40 has more PAO/Ester base stock than the others, while the 5W-30 is a G3+ base oil with some PAO and Ester thrown in as additives. It might make a difference. Can't wait to see the results of that one. The TSO has proven to be a great oil, I wouldn't worry at all about it in your VQ- but if you have a UOA done please share.
I'll update the comparison chart with this sample and put my flame suit on. As if the RP fanboys weren't pissed off enough with me about how the 5W-30 compares to the other oils, the Motul guys are really going to give me some grief I'm sure! Remeber, data is just data, so take it for what it's worth and make your own interpretations, but I wouldn't use this oil in my engine.
Will
08-01-2007, 03:58 PM
#78
Thanks for all this really great and detailed info - I love it!
My Q: It seems that even in recent months, formulas for certain oils have changed. I have read and learned so much about oil on this page, embedded links, and google searches, but I still have questions.
Just a thought, but Perhaps someone would like to post what oils are "best" or proven safest for
Cold Weather -40 to 65 degrees F
performance (NA mods)
daily driver (typical street driver)
FI needs
Perfect Pleasant Weather 40-90 degrees F
performance (NA mods)
daily driver (typical street driver)
FI needs
Super Hot Weather 70-120 degrees F
performance (NA mods)
daily driver (typical street driver)
FI needs
For instance: I live in santa barbara, cali where our weather is 40-100 degrees. Our manual recommends 10w-30 or 10w-40 for warmer weather (5w-30 for cold weather)...but why do I see all these 0W-xx?
I really want the best of the best for my needs - $ is not an issue and while I would like to change it more often than needed, I may go longer because I am absent-minded. I drive the car pretty hard and have plans for light modding - No FI though. I would like to try a synthetic or Synth blend, but It is hard to make a decision with so many choices and opinions.
Forgive me if I p1ss anyone off with YET another oil Q. There is just so much info!
My Q: It seems that even in recent months, formulas for certain oils have changed. I have read and learned so much about oil on this page, embedded links, and google searches, but I still have questions.
Just a thought, but Perhaps someone would like to post what oils are "best" or proven safest for
Cold Weather -40 to 65 degrees F
performance (NA mods)
daily driver (typical street driver)
FI needs
Perfect Pleasant Weather 40-90 degrees F
performance (NA mods)
daily driver (typical street driver)
FI needs
Super Hot Weather 70-120 degrees F
performance (NA mods)
daily driver (typical street driver)
FI needs
For instance: I live in santa barbara, cali where our weather is 40-100 degrees. Our manual recommends 10w-30 or 10w-40 for warmer weather (5w-30 for cold weather)...but why do I see all these 0W-xx?
I really want the best of the best for my needs - $ is not an issue and while I would like to change it more often than needed, I may go longer because I am absent-minded. I drive the car pretty hard and have plans for light modding - No FI though. I would like to try a synthetic or Synth blend, but It is hard to make a decision with so many choices and opinions.
Forgive me if I p1ss anyone off with YET another oil Q. There is just so much info!
08-01-2007, 11:19 PM
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Just got another analysis for M1 5w30 this time on a 10,000 mile interval. I'll try to post it up, but other than a slightly high iron count due to the extended drain interval, it looked pretty good again and they stated I could try 11,000 if I wanted to, which I don't.