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Old 08-13-2007, 07:36 AM   #121
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Resolute:
Question... and yes I have read the entire thread many times over. lol I actually used some of this info for my letter to Infiniti to replace my longblack after it blew up due to oil consumption...5 quarts in 1,500 miles!!!

What are your thoughts on using a metal additive like Zmax. They claim not to be an oil additive. What about oil additives like Prolong and Slick 50.

I used Z max in my Mustang and honestly could feel the difference. I didnt take it to the dyno, put 2nd gear was more audible...lol.

Your thoughts....?

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Old 08-13-2007, 08:44 AM   #122
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Well tomorrow the AMSOIL 0w30 oil sample will be in the mail to blackstone so we'll see how that goes.

I put in the schaeffer's 7000 5w30, got it for 75 bucks for a case of 12 after shipping from the local guy in colorado springs. The stuff is strange too, it's green in color, just like your descriptions of the castrol euro formula - and has a similar smell IMO as well. I'll send it in for an oil sample when I change it out as well. I'm waiting to see my AMSOIL report before I decide how many miles to put on the schaeffer's oil - I put 4000 on the AMSOIL.

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Old 08-13-2007, 02:36 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_Blur
I have 'heard' that M1 has recently changed its formula to the extent that it is no-longer considered fully synthetic. Is this true and do you still recommend it?
Who cares? Really, what does it matter what the base stocks are if the oil performs well. If there is one thing to see from all the oils tested o far, it is that base stock formulations mean nothing if the overall package isn't formulated well. There is a reason Catrol GTX 5W-30, a conventional oil, has outperformed Motul 5W-30, an oil that uses "superior" Ester base stock oils. Schaeffer's is probably one of the absolute best oils out there, and they use Group3 hydroisomerized base stock oil. They have been blending oils longer than any company in the U.S. and they know the base stock is secondary to a proper additive package. Arguing over whether an oil is realy a synthetic, or whether it uses Esters or PAO's... it's all hype. Use an oil that has proven to perform well in your engine- ignore what name is on the label.

That being said. I don't know what Mobil uses in it's oils, and I don't really care. It's proprietary info and I don't see the point in getting your shorts in a wad over something that doesn't matter. If the oil performs well, then that's all that matters.

Knowing an oil's base stock can help in making an educated guess on what oils "might" do well if there has not been a UOA done. But, there is so much more to an oil than base stock, even that wouldn't be a good bet on choosing an oil. Hence why choosing Motul 300V 5W-30 might seem like a good bet since they use a good amount of Ester in their base stock, but the overall formulation doesn't work well for the daily driver. So, it's a crapshoot to base what oils you try on base stocks alone.

That being said, Mobil1 0W-40 is a fully synthetic oil. First off, a hydrocracked oil can't achieve that weight. not without a rediculous amount of viscosity index improvers, and that would deteriorate the base stock, and lower the TBN drastically. The M1 0W-40 has shown high TBN and shear stability, even after several track days. Second, and the most compelling evidence, is the fact that M1 0W-40 has an Aniline point of 254 degrees F, and Mobil 1's PAO6 has an aniline point of 257 degrees F:
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Pu...raSyn_Plus.pdf
That's too close to be a coincidence, especially when you consider the viscosity spread. Finally, M1 0W-40 is BMW LL-01 spec certified, which is only given to oils that are PAO or Ester base stocks that also meet BMW's criteria. M1 0W-40 and Valvoline SynPower 5W-40 are the ONLY oils sold in the US to have the LL-01 certification. M1 0W-40 is also the ONLY oil sold in the US that meets both of Mercedes Benz' certifications of MB 229.3 and 229.5. There are NO conventional or Group3 oils to meet these specs either, they are all fully synthetic.

So, yeah I think this oil is a "fully synthetic PAO base stock" oil. The other weights, such as the M1 5W-30 or 10W-30- who knows or cares? They don't do as well in the VQ as the M1 0W-40 so why bother even using them, much less wonder what they're made of? Maybe I'll give the High Mileage a shot and see how it does, or the Mobil1 5W-40... but the M1 0W-40 has already shown itself to be a good oil from ExxonMobil's stable of products so I'm in no hurry to try another one.

Will
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:41 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4SHIZZIL G-SPOT
Resolute:
Question... and yes I have read the entire thread many times over. lol I actually used some of this info for my letter to Infiniti to replace my longblack after it blew up due to oil consumption...5 quarts in 1,500 miles!!!

What are your thoughts on using a metal additive like Zmax. They claim not to be an oil additive. What about oil additives like Prolong and Slick 50.

I used Z max in my Mustang and honestly could feel the difference. I didnt take it to the dyno, put 2nd gear was more audible...lol.

Your thoughts....?
Try at your own risk. I wouldn't touch any of those products. Slick50 was sued because Teflon is not supposed to be in your engine. There is a reason you have to clean a Teflon pan with a plastic tool and not a metal spatula. If your engine's made of plastic then it might be OK, but for the VQ... I wouldn't use a product that doesn't hold up too well under contact with metal.

I would use some oil additives that contain MoTDC, Boron, or ZDDP as the principal anti-wear or friction modifier. Valvoline SynPower Oil Treatment(VSOT) has shown good oil wear improvement when you use about 1oz per qt of oil. Schaeffer's makes a good Moly addiitve and Torco has a nice Moly/Boron/ZDDP additive that can be used in the same amounts as the VSOT.

Will
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:42 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shushikiary
Well tomorrow the AMSOIL 0w40 oil sample will be in the mail to blackstone so we'll see how that goes.

I put in the schaeffer's 7000 5w30, got it for 75 bucks for a case of 12 after shipping from the local guy in colorado springs. The stuff is strange too, it's green in color, just like your descriptions of the castrol euro formula - and has a similar smell IMO as well. I'll send it in for an oil sample when I change it out as well. I'm waiting to see my AMSOIL report before I decide how many miles to put on the schaeffer's oil - I put 4000 on the AMSOIL.
Schaeffer's is good stuff. I think you'll be happy with it. The Amsoil you used should do well also. Can't wait to get the results and see how your engine did with it compared to the Motul.

Will
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:34 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute
Who cares? Really, what does it matter what the base stocks are if the oil performs well. If there is one thing to see from all the oils tested o far, it is that base stock formulations mean nothing if the overall package isn't formulated well. There is a reason Catrol GTX 5W-30, a conventional oil, has outperformed Motul 5W-30, an oil that uses "superior" Ester base stock oils. Schaeffer's is probably one of the absolute best oils out there, and they use Group3 hydroisomerized base stock oil. They have been blending oils longer than any company in the U.S. and they know the base stock is secondary to a proper additive package. Arguing over whether an oil is realy a synthetic, or whether it uses Esters or PAO's... it's all hype. Use an oil that has proven to perform well in your engine- ignore what name is on the label.

That being said. I don't know what Mobil uses in it's oils, and I don't really care. It's proprietary info and I don't see the point in getting your shorts in a wad over something that doesn't matter. If the oil performs well, then that's all that matters.

Knowing an oil's base stock can help in making an educated guess on what oils "might" do well if there has not been a UOA done. But, there is so much more to an oil than base stock, even that wouldn't be a good bet on choosing an oil. Hence why choosing Motul 300V 5W-30 might seem like a good bet since they use a good amount of Ester in their base stock, but the overall formulation doesn't work well for the daily driver. So, it's a crapshoot to base what oils you try on base stocks alone.

That being said, Mobil1 0W-40 is a fully synthetic oil. First off, a hydrocracked oil can't achieve that weight. not without a rediculous amount of viscosity index improvers, and that would deteriorate the base stock, and lower the TBN drastically. The M1 0W-40 has shown high TBN and shear stability, even after several track days. Second, and the most compelling evidence, is the fact that M1 0W-40 has an Aniline point of 254 degrees F, and Mobil 1's PAO6 has an aniline point of 257 degrees F:
http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Pu...raSyn_Plus.pdf
That's too close to be a coincidence, especially when you consider the viscosity spread. Finally, M1 0W-40 is BMW LL-01 spec certified, which is only given to oils that are PAO or Ester base stocks that also meet BMW's criteria. M1 0W-40 and Valvoline SynPower 5W-40 are the ONLY oils sold in the US to have the LL-01 certification. M1 0W-40 is also the ONLY oil sold in the US that meets both of Mercedes Benz' certifications of MB 229.3 and 229.5. There are NO conventional or Group3 oils to meet these specs either, they are all fully synthetic.

So, yeah I think this oil is a "fully synthetic PAO base stock" oil. The other weights, such as the M1 5W-30 or 10W-30- who knows or cares? They don't do as well in the VQ as the M1 0W-40 so why bother even using them, much less wonder what they're made of? Maybe I'll give the High Mileage a shot and see how it does, or the Mobil1 5W-40... but the M1 0W-40 has already shown itself to be a good oil from ExxonMobil's stable of products so I'm in no hurry to try another one.

Will
I care because I know only the very basics of oil and I am trying to educate myself. To a person that is ignorant of most of the nuances and intricacies of modern oil, whether or not is fully synthetic could mean the world. In addition, I am not getting 'my shorts in a wad', I just want to make sure I am making the best decision possible for my Z at this important point in time since the turbo system is getting reinstalled.

With that beign said, I have been doing some research on Mobil's site and have come across their Extended Performance oils.

In my situation, if they do happen to make a M1 Extended Performance in 0w-40, would you suggest that?

According to M1's site, it contains 50% more protective additives than the standard M1. To my eyes, this can only be a benefit with the added protection.

Your thoughts, sir?

Edit: According to M1's site: They DO NOT make Extended Perf in 0w-40. It starts off as 5w-20 and then goes to 5w-30 which is what I have been using for the longest.

Last edited by Blu_Blur; 08-14-2007 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:25 PM   #127
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I'm about to get a UOA of a 5000+ mile Amsoil ATM 10w-30 sample soon with Amsoil oil filter.
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:39 PM   #128
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Best thread ever!
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Old 08-16-2007, 01:47 AM   #129
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By far one of the most time consuming and well thought out thread.

Great job Resolute!
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:57 PM   #130
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i saw the disturbing Motul 8100 UOA. Do you have any UOA for the Motul 300V 5W40? I have been running this type of the 300V in my twin turbo VQ.

I am thinking of having a UOA performed on it now.. to whom and where do I send the oil? Blackstone labs?
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Old 08-16-2007, 02:02 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadCam
i saw the disturbing Motul 8100 UOA. Do you have any UOA for the Motul 300V 5W40? I have been running this type of the 300V in my twin turbo VQ.

I am thinking of having a UOA performed on it now.. to whom and where do I send the oil? Blackstone labs?

The motul 300v UOA is here:

https://my350z.com/forum/showpost.ph...3&postcount=76

the motul 8100 econergy 5W30 is here:

https://my350z.com/forum/showpost.ph...7&postcount=87


If your TT is built then the 300v might work better for you as the engine tolerances, etc are different than a stock VQ, so a UOA from you would be very nice! But if you're stock block I wouldnt use it.
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:43 PM   #132
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I found blacktone's website and filled out the info required to get an oil test kit.

I will get mine tested as I am running a stock motor "revup" VQ with 30,000 + miles with a 10 psi greddy TT kit. My current oil is Motul 300V 5W40. I noticed that the UOA in the previous link was from the 5W30.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:20 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadCam
I found blacktone's website and filled out the info required to get an oil test kit.

I will get mine tested as I am running a stock motor "revup" VQ with 30,000 + miles with a 10 psi greddy TT kit. My current oil is Motul 300V 5W40. I noticed that the UOA in the previous link was from the 5W30.

ah, missed that, sorry. Well then it will be good to see what the 5w40 does!
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Old 08-17-2007, 12:49 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shushikiary
ah, missed that, sorry. Well then it will be good to see what the 5w40 does!
Agreed. Please post your UOA when you get it, QuadCam.

Will
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Old 08-17-2007, 12:54 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_Blur
I care because I know only the very basics of oil and I am trying to educate myself. To a person that is ignorant of most of the nuances and intricacies of modern oil, whether or not is fully synthetic could mean the world. In addition, I am not getting 'my shorts in a wad', I just want to make sure I am making the best decision possible for my Z at this important point in time since the turbo system is getting reinstalled.
You shouldn't care if an oil is synthetic or not if it has shown good results- that is the singular point found in the data collected so far. Being a synthetic oil is no guarantee of performing well. We have a good running list of oils that perform well, and not all of them are synthetic. In fact, the worst performing oils to date are all synthetic oils. Just because an oil is synthetic, does not mean it will perform any better than a conventional oil in a given application. Go by what your UOA results are, and use the results collected so far to help you make an initial decision.

M1 0W-40 is a great example since it has shown excellent results. You asked if you should still use it, or if I still recommend it, if it wasn't a synthetic. If it wasn't a synthetic, would you still consider using it despite the great results? If not, that would be a shame. If someone tells you that their preferred oil is fully synthetic, or that M1 is not fully synthetic- it doesn't matter and you really shouldn't care since you know the oil performs great in your engine. What you care about is whether it performs well in your engine, right? If it was conventional and worked great, does that mean you wouldn't use it? Conversely, if it was a "fully synthetic" oil and didn't hold up nearly as well as other conventional oils, would you still use it just because it says "synthetic" on the bottle? We have seen this very circumstance where a conventional works better than several synthetics, and some people will continue to ignore the conventional oil's results simply because it's not a "synthetic" oil. Some people will continue to ignore the great results M1 0W-40 has shown, simply because of rumors that it might not be "fully synthetic." And some will continue to use an oil that has repeatedly shown less than average results, simply because it is hyped as the "best synthetic." If there is one thing I would like readers of this sticky to see, it is that the data does not always support the hype of advertising. Ignore the label and synthetic titles, and use what has proven to work best for your application. There's no question the M1 0W-40 is a great oil for the VQ, the UOA's show this, so second-guessing the oil because of questions about it's base stock makes no sense to me.

I understand that you want to learn about oils, and that's what this thread is for, but the key piece of information in this thread is the UOA comparison chart that shows which oils have done well in the VQ. Knowing which are synthetic and not is conjecture for the most part, and as I have repeatedly stated and what the data has shown, is that an oil's base stock is not a solid indicator of how well it will perform. Since we know that M1 0W-40 is a great performer, why bother worrying about the base stock? We know it works well. The bigger mystery is why some of the "best" synthetic oils don't perform as well as several conventional oils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_Blur
With that beign said, I have been doing some research on Mobil's site and have come across their Extended Performance oils.

In my situation, if they do happen to make a M1 Extended Performance in 0w-40, would you suggest that?

According to M1's site, it contains 50% more protective additives than the standard M1. To my eyes, this can only be a benefit with the added protection.

Your thoughts, sir?

Edit: According to M1's site: They DO NOT make Extended Perf in 0w-40. It starts off as 5w-20 and then goes to 5w-30 which is what I have been using for the longest.
I don't have any UOA's done on their EP oils. I would say that an increase in additives is usually beneficial, but the chemistry of an oil is so complex that there is no guarantee. As an example, I would have guessed that the high amounts of Moly and ZDDP found in the Motul 300V would make a good formula for an oil, especially with a diester base stock (Group5), but it doesn't look all that good. Again, the overall formulation is what makes a great oil and that is all proprietary, so guessing based on additives and base stock is a shot in the dark.

Since you asked, my "shot in the dark" would be to look at the 10W-30 High Mileage oil from Mobil1 if you don't want to go with the 0W-40. It has shown nice results in other turbocharged engines, whereas the EP line hasn't looked as good as the 0W-40 in other engines. There is a decent collection of UOA's on the HM oil from other engines on the oildrop server, so it is a good candidate to try. I have not been as impressed with the EP oil UOA's so far, but there is none from the VQ using either oil. So, if you go with either of these, then please post a UOA so we can all see how it does.

I think I will keep track of oil UOA's from stock block FI engines, but the built engines are going to vary so much it's almost pointless to keep a record of them. If you get a UOA done, just post it here and we'll see how it looks.

I hope all of this is making some sense and answering your questions. Please, keep posting questions if you have them and hopefully people with the same thoughts and questions will see this sticky and have them answered as well.

Will
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Old 08-17-2007, 01:38 PM   #136
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Thanks for the responce.

I guess right now, I have narrowed it down to two oils which you have suggested. I know that you said the M1 0w-40 has performed well in NA VQ's but I wonder how well it may perform in the hotter engine core of a turbocharged engine. However, I drive my Z pretty conservatively and only on occasion do I get into boost for more than a few seconds. I wonder if I would need an oil they may have heavier weight or extra additives.

What is the factor in regards to an oil holding-up to temperature before breaking down in it's protection. Obviously their is viscosity caused by friction but what about indirect temperature. Is that the 'aniline' point?
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Old 08-17-2007, 02:01 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_Blur
Thanks for the responce.

I guess right now, I have narrowed it down to two oils which you have suggested. I know that you said the M1 0w-40 has performed well in NA VQ's but I wonder how well it may perform in the hotter engine core of a turbocharged engine. However, I drive my Z pretty conservatively and only on occasion do I get into boost for more than a few seconds. I wonder if I would need an oil they may have heavier weight or extra additives.

What is the factor in regards to an oil holding-up to temperature before breaking down in it's protection. Obviously their is viscosity caused by friction but what about indirect temperature. Is that the 'aniline' point?
For your turbo-charged engine, just look for an HTHS number of 3.6 or higher. Any oil that is ACEA A3 certified will meet this spec. Gurgen's built TT engine has run M1 0W-40 in it and posted the UOA. It was also run during several track days. The oil did fine. I expect it to do better in your engine due to the tolerances of the stock engine vs. his built block. He is using the Rotella T-Syn right now to check it out and will post his UOA when he hits 3k miles or so. I expect it to do better since it is an HDMO vs. a PCMO. There is always a give and take. Check back about a page for his post and explanation on the HDMO (heavy Duty Motor Oil) rating and what that means.

Will
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Old 08-17-2007, 02:14 PM   #138
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Thanks Will I think I have finally come to a conclusion as to which oil I will use.

P.S. I've also met Gurgen a few times. Not sure if I would trust anything he may bring to the table as he's blown a few motors to date.

I kid I kid.
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Old 08-18-2007, 10:00 AM   #139
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Default Oil temp vs oil brand

Will:

Terrific thread - I am switching to M1 0W-40 on my next oil change (stock motor - twin turbo).

My oil is 210 F on the street with a peak at about 240 F.

What oil temperature should I be trying to maintain for engine longevity?

Any brand oil particularly suited to this temperature range?

Thanks
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:53 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman2
Will:

Terrific thread - I am switching to M1 0W-40 on my next oil change (stock motor - twin turbo).

My oil is 210 F on the street with a peak at about 240 F.

What oil temperature should I be trying to maintain for engine longevity?

Any brand oil particularly suited to this temperature range?

Thanks
Same as before, any oil with an HTHS score of 3.6 or higher. Higher number is better for your application. So, the M1 0W-40 is a good choice, but a heavy duty motor oil might be the ticket for you TT guys that don't have to worry about emissions. I don't know if that applies to you or not, but an HDMO will have a higher HTHS score and good additive formulation, at the expense of mileage and emission compliance for most passenger cars. For industrial uses that don't worry so much about the latter two issues, and just need their equipment to endure severe abuse for as long as possible, that's what an HDMO is better designed for. That might be the best type of oil for the TT engines out there. We should know soon enough- hang tight if you can and see how this Rotella T-Syn does in Gurgen's TT ride. We can have a direct comparison between it and the M1 0W-40 in a TT application. He has a built block with looser tolerances than a stock engine (by nature of the build with Al pistons) so I expect a stock block to look even better for similar boost levels.

I am running it in my stock engine to see how an HDMO oil performs in regular use compared to the Amsoil, Schaeffer's, GTX and M1 samples. I don't know if any of the benefits of this oil will outweigh the downsides. My mpg is a little worse with it over the M1 0W-40, and Shell states a slight increase in ash build-up in the combustion chamber will occur in a NA gasoline engine. And the high amount of ZDDP has been proven to kill catalytic converters. None of these are issues in a TT engine, but in a NA engine, I'm curious to see if the protection is good enough to justify these faults of an HDMO. We'll see soon enough.

Will
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