No more hair to pull out, Throttle response!!
06-10-2011, 10:50 AM
#22
The Pedal assembly was not changed, If you guys are sure it's the culprit, I will order one from courtesyparts & give it a shot .
I know that i got
by the dealer, They claim that they got my approval to order the ECU & they cannot take it back cause may be it went bad also.
I will scan all the invoices & send a complaint to Nissan Consumer Affairs, I will see how it goes.
I know that i got
by the dealer, They claim that they got my approval to order the ECU & they cannot take it back cause may be it went bad also.I will scan all the invoices & send a complaint to Nissan Consumer Affairs, I will see how it goes.
06-10-2011, 12:26 PM
#23
Tell nissan that you have right to sue for the service they failed to perform.
Under common law service contracts, Nissan did not perform a substantial performance and therefore, the contract (repair) is discharged in this case.
With regards to a contract requiring performance to the satisfaction of the other party, the courts are divided as to:
1. Whether the promisor must perform the contract to the satisfaction of the promisee; or
2. Whether it is sufficient that the performance would satisfy a reasonable person under the circumstances.
Obviously, both 1&2 did not meet the expectation, so you have every right.
Lastly, when you sue, you have 2 general outcomes.
1. Rescission and restitution (rescind contract and restore money)
2. Reformation/ Quasi-contract (change or create contract so that court can remedy the situation)
However, if you signed/agreed with on exculpatory releases, which is a clause that release a party from liability in the event of monetary or physical injury, no who is at fault, that's a whole different story....
Anyways, you should call Nissan (which I'm sure you did multiple times), and explain what I just said above, you should get your proper service. Shops usually back out when you throw in rights, legal terms and etc at them. I was able to get a refund from a repair shop who couldn't fix my headlight problem with a new fuse and a lightbulb.
Just my 2cents coming from business law class I took.
Under common law service contracts, Nissan did not perform a substantial performance and therefore, the contract (repair) is discharged in this case.
With regards to a contract requiring performance to the satisfaction of the other party, the courts are divided as to:
1. Whether the promisor must perform the contract to the satisfaction of the promisee; or
2. Whether it is sufficient that the performance would satisfy a reasonable person under the circumstances.
Obviously, both 1&2 did not meet the expectation, so you have every right.
Lastly, when you sue, you have 2 general outcomes.
1. Rescission and restitution (rescind contract and restore money)
2. Reformation/ Quasi-contract (change or create contract so that court can remedy the situation)
However, if you signed/agreed with on exculpatory releases, which is a clause that release a party from liability in the event of monetary or physical injury, no who is at fault, that's a whole different story....
Anyways, you should call Nissan (which I'm sure you did multiple times), and explain what I just said above, you should get your proper service. Shops usually back out when you throw in rights, legal terms and etc at them. I was able to get a refund from a repair shop who couldn't fix my headlight problem with a new fuse and a lightbulb.
Just my 2cents coming from business law class I took.
First thing I'd do is try to get these tests run, (Nissan's Consult system test for these). If your wary of going back to the dealership, check with a good private Nissan shop. The bad news is there's no guarantee on what will fix the problem, but if you test it and its bad or outside of spec it should be replaced.
06-10-2011, 01:06 PM
#24
Registered User
From what you say, the symptoms are consistent in that the accelerator pedal works OK until you get the car up to speed and let off, then it quits until you bring the car to a stop. That makes it doubtful the pedal is the cause of the problem. The chances that an intermittent problem with the pedal would repeat so reliably are about zero.
There's probably a function in the ECM that tells it to disregard the input from the accelerator pedal (but strangely not the cruise control buttons) under certain conditions. A bad sensor somewhere is telling the ECM those conditions exist when you get the car up to speed, and the pedal quits working. The ECM resets when you bring the car to a stop, and it starts working again.
For example, the closest thing I can find is the Fuel Cut Control, which does this:
SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
If the engine speed is above 1,800 rpm under no load (for example, the shift position is neutral and engine speed is over 1,800 rpm) fuel will be cut off after some time. The exact time when the fuel is cut off varies based on engine speed. Fuel cut will be operated until the engine speed reaches 1,500 rpm, then fuel cut will be cancelled.
Fuel Cut Control gets inputs from these sensors:
Accelerator pedal position sensor Accelerator pedal position
Engine coolant temperature sensor Engine coolant temperature
Crankshaft position sensor (POS)
Camshaft position sensor (PHASE)
Engine speed
Wheel sensor
Someone more familiar with the ECM should be able to tell you which ECM function does what you describe and what sensor is most likely providing the bad info.
I really hope it turns out to be the pedal, but I don't think it's going to.
There's probably a function in the ECM that tells it to disregard the input from the accelerator pedal (but strangely not the cruise control buttons) under certain conditions. A bad sensor somewhere is telling the ECM those conditions exist when you get the car up to speed, and the pedal quits working. The ECM resets when you bring the car to a stop, and it starts working again.
For example, the closest thing I can find is the Fuel Cut Control, which does this:
SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
If the engine speed is above 1,800 rpm under no load (for example, the shift position is neutral and engine speed is over 1,800 rpm) fuel will be cut off after some time. The exact time when the fuel is cut off varies based on engine speed. Fuel cut will be operated until the engine speed reaches 1,500 rpm, then fuel cut will be cancelled.
Fuel Cut Control gets inputs from these sensors:
Accelerator pedal position sensor Accelerator pedal position
Engine coolant temperature sensor Engine coolant temperature
Crankshaft position sensor (POS)
Camshaft position sensor (PHASE)
Engine speed
Wheel sensor
Someone more familiar with the ECM should be able to tell you which ECM function does what you describe and what sensor is most likely providing the bad info.
I really hope it turns out to be the pedal, but I don't think it's going to.
Last edited by winchman; 06-10-2011 at 01:09 PM.
06-10-2011, 04:09 PM
#25
Registered User
Check this out:
When there is an open circuit on MIL circuit, the ECM cannot warn the driver by lighting up MIL when there is malfunction on engine control system. Therefore, when electrical controlled throttle and part of ECM related diagnoses are continuously detected as NG for 5 trips, ECM warns the driver that engine control system malfunctions and MIL circuit is open by means of operating fail-safe function.
The fail-safe function also operates when above diagnoses except MIL circuit are detected and demands the driver to repair the malfunction.
Engine operating condition in fail-safe mode Engine speed will not rise more than 2,500 rpm due to the fuel cut.
That's from the '07 service manual, but your car is probably similar.
So, maybe there's something wrong with the malfunction indicator light circuit.
When there is an open circuit on MIL circuit, the ECM cannot warn the driver by lighting up MIL when there is malfunction on engine control system. Therefore, when electrical controlled throttle and part of ECM related diagnoses are continuously detected as NG for 5 trips, ECM warns the driver that engine control system malfunctions and MIL circuit is open by means of operating fail-safe function.
The fail-safe function also operates when above diagnoses except MIL circuit are detected and demands the driver to repair the malfunction.
Engine operating condition in fail-safe mode Engine speed will not rise more than 2,500 rpm due to the fuel cut.
That's from the '07 service manual, but your car is probably similar.
So, maybe there's something wrong with the malfunction indicator light circuit.
Last edited by winchman; 06-10-2011 at 04:11 PM.
06-10-2011, 05:46 PM
#26
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it is very well possible that when the pedal goes through its initial travel a minor deviation is detected on one side. then when the range travels back through that spot the dme senses a pedal position implausibility fault and puts in to a limp mode.
due to this a simple ohm meter is not really a good tool to use for diagnosis. rather an o-scope that can plot both readings at the same time is prfered.
06-10-2011, 05:47 PM
#27
Check this out:
When there is an open circuit on MIL circuit, the ECM cannot warn the driver by lighting up MIL when there is malfunction on engine control system. Therefore, when electrical controlled throttle and part of ECM related diagnoses are continuously detected as NG for 5 trips, ECM warns the driver that engine control system malfunctions and MIL circuit is open by means of operating fail-safe function.
The fail-safe function also operates when above diagnoses except MIL circuit are detected and demands the driver to repair the malfunction.
Engine operating condition in fail-safe mode Engine speed will not rise more than 2,500 rpm due to the fuel cut.
That's from the '07 service manual, but your car is probably similar.
So, maybe there's something wrong with the malfunction indicator light circuit.
When there is an open circuit on MIL circuit, the ECM cannot warn the driver by lighting up MIL when there is malfunction on engine control system. Therefore, when electrical controlled throttle and part of ECM related diagnoses are continuously detected as NG for 5 trips, ECM warns the driver that engine control system malfunctions and MIL circuit is open by means of operating fail-safe function.
The fail-safe function also operates when above diagnoses except MIL circuit are detected and demands the driver to repair the malfunction.
Engine operating condition in fail-safe mode Engine speed will not rise more than 2,500 rpm due to the fuel cut.
That's from the '07 service manual, but your car is probably similar.
So, maybe there's something wrong with the malfunction indicator light circuit.
One thing that i want to add, When i'm not able to accelerate, I can hear the engine doing a hmmmmmmmmmm sound ( the more i press the pedal, the more it gets louder ) while pushing the gas pedal hard as if it's trying to accelerate but something is holding it back.
06-10-2011, 07:53 PM
#28
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I had the same problem... I had my Tail Lights bulbs bad... they worked but were not Hella Brand... Try changing them!!!... also DISCONECT the Brake Switch... (look down at the brake pedal, it has a conector on top of it, unplug it)...
good Luck.
good Luck.
06-10-2011, 08:26 PM
#29
Registered User
He won't be able to shift out of Park with the brake switch disconnected, unless he uses the procedure in the owner's manual to release the interlock solenoid on the shift lever. I suppose he could get it out of Park, and then disconnect the switch. It's worth a try.
I think the strange sound from the engine is the fact that it's being starved for fuel while the throttle is open, and that means it's running very lean. Apparently fuel cut doesn't affect the throttle body, just the fuel injectors.
I think the strange sound from the engine is the fact that it's being starved for fuel while the throttle is open, and that means it's running very lean. Apparently fuel cut doesn't affect the throttle body, just the fuel injectors.
06-10-2011, 09:38 PM
#30
He won't be able to shift out of Park with the brake switch disconnected, unless he uses the procedure in the owner's manual to release the interlock solenoid on the shift lever. I suppose he could get it out of Park, and then disconnect the switch. It's worth a try.
I think the strange sound from the engine is the fact that it's being starved for fuel while the throttle is open, and that means it's running very lean. Apparently fuel cut doesn't affect the throttle body, just the fuel injectors.
I think the strange sound from the engine is the fact that it's being starved for fuel while the throttle is open, and that means it's running very lean. Apparently fuel cut doesn't affect the throttle body, just the fuel injectors.
06-11-2011, 03:08 AM
#31
Registered User
I just watched your video again, and it doesn't look like the AT is going into lockup. Is it? Would it have been in lockup under those conditions before this problem started?
06-11-2011, 09:27 AM
#32
It looks like a I have a gremlin in this car, I did connect the brake light signal cable ( the one that goes to ECU pin 101 ) directly to the ground, To make sure it's not floating any current, NO Luck .
A friend of mine agreed to swap his pedal in my car, It was PITA to take the pedal out & get replaced, After all the headache, I did the re-learn test drove the car, Still No Luck .
As i know Torque converter will only lock up in D4 & D5. Call me stupid, But is there a way to test if it's locking or no ?
A friend of mine agreed to swap his pedal in my car, It was PITA to take the pedal out & get replaced, After all the headache, I did the re-learn test drove the car, Still No Luck .
As i know Torque converter will only lock up in D4 & D5. Call me stupid, But is there a way to test if it's locking or no ?
06-11-2011, 12:09 PM
#33
Registered User
You're correct. I thought it might have been in D4 just long enough to go into lockup. It would be interesting to see what happens if you get it into lockup (with gentle acceleration up to D5), let off the pedal, then try to accelerate again.
I think the engine may be revving with no load when you start to accelerate again (with the transmission out of lockup) just long enough to trigger the fuel cut. It gets out of fuel cut when you stop the car. Since that's a normal operation of the ECU, it wouldn't give you a code.
I'm pretty sure my AT will go into lockup at that speed if I accelerate gently and let off the gas. It unlocks when the speed drops to the mid-30mph range.
The easiest way to tell if it's in lockup is to see if the rpms drop when you let off the accelerator. If it's in lockup, the rpms will drop along with the speed until it unlocks. Then the engine will go to idle.
A low fluid level can keep the AT from going into lockup when it should. Have you checked that?
I think the engine may be revving with no load when you start to accelerate again (with the transmission out of lockup) just long enough to trigger the fuel cut. It gets out of fuel cut when you stop the car. Since that's a normal operation of the ECU, it wouldn't give you a code.
I'm pretty sure my AT will go into lockup at that speed if I accelerate gently and let off the gas. It unlocks when the speed drops to the mid-30mph range.
The easiest way to tell if it's in lockup is to see if the rpms drop when you let off the accelerator. If it's in lockup, the rpms will drop along with the speed until it unlocks. Then the engine will go to idle.
A low fluid level can keep the AT from going into lockup when it should. Have you checked that?
Last edited by winchman; 06-11-2011 at 12:15 PM.
06-11-2011, 09:37 PM
#34
You're correct. I thought it might have been in D4 just long enough to go into lockup. It would be interesting to see what happens if you get it into lockup (with gentle acceleration up to D5), let off the pedal, then try to accelerate again.
I think the engine may be revving with no load when you start to accelerate again (with the transmission out of lockup) just long enough to trigger the fuel cut. It gets out of fuel cut when you stop the car. Since that's a normal operation of the ECU, it wouldn't give you a code.
I'm pretty sure my AT will go into lockup at that speed if I accelerate gently and let off the gas. It unlocks when the speed drops to the mid-30mph range.
The easiest way to tell if it's in lockup is to see if the rpms drop when you let off the accelerator. If it's in lockup, the rpms will drop along with the speed until it unlocks. Then the engine will go to idle.
A low fluid level can keep the AT from going into lockup when it should. Have you checked that?
I think the engine may be revving with no load when you start to accelerate again (with the transmission out of lockup) just long enough to trigger the fuel cut. It gets out of fuel cut when you stop the car. Since that's a normal operation of the ECU, it wouldn't give you a code.
I'm pretty sure my AT will go into lockup at that speed if I accelerate gently and let off the gas. It unlocks when the speed drops to the mid-30mph range.
The easiest way to tell if it's in lockup is to see if the rpms drop when you let off the accelerator. If it's in lockup, the rpms will drop along with the speed until it unlocks. Then the engine will go to idle.
A low fluid level can keep the AT from going into lockup when it should. Have you checked that?
Regarding the torque converter lock up issue, Do you mean in D4 & D5 with speed over 80 km/h - 50 MPH, The RPM should not drop down if i released the the accelerator pedal?, I think this is not happening
, I will try it today on my way home.I guess this is what you are refering to, I cannot get the point of the video though,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSFk_YEb99g
06-12-2011, 03:23 AM
#35
Registered User
"Do you mean in D4 & D5 with speed over 80 km/h - 50 MPH, The RPM should not drop down if i released the the accelerator pedal?"
That's correct. The rpms should not drop suddenly when you let off the gas.
At the start and toward the end of the video, he's in D, and he lets off the gas. You can hear the engine sound change, but the rpms drop slowly as the car slows. The torque converter (TC) is in lockup. There's no sudden drop in rpms.
In the middle of the video, he's in M5. When he lets off the gas, you can see the rpms drop suddenly by about 600. The TC is not in lockup.
Say I'm cruising at 60mph in D with the tach at 2000, and I know I have to stop ahead. When I let completely off the gas the tach will still show 2000. When the speed drops to 50mph, the tach will show about 1700. At 40mph, it'll show 1400. At about 37mph the TC will unlock, and the tach will drop immediately to idle.
Some transmissions have a semi-lockup mode that will provide some engine braking under certain conditions. That's probably why the engine speed in the video doesn't drop all the way to idle when he lets off the gas in M5. Of course, he might not be letting all the way off the gas. IDK.
That's correct. The rpms should not drop suddenly when you let off the gas.
At the start and toward the end of the video, he's in D, and he lets off the gas. You can hear the engine sound change, but the rpms drop slowly as the car slows. The torque converter (TC) is in lockup. There's no sudden drop in rpms.
In the middle of the video, he's in M5. When he lets off the gas, you can see the rpms drop suddenly by about 600. The TC is not in lockup.
Say I'm cruising at 60mph in D with the tach at 2000, and I know I have to stop ahead. When I let completely off the gas the tach will still show 2000. When the speed drops to 50mph, the tach will show about 1700. At 40mph, it'll show 1400. At about 37mph the TC will unlock, and the tach will drop immediately to idle.
Some transmissions have a semi-lockup mode that will provide some engine braking under certain conditions. That's probably why the engine speed in the video doesn't drop all the way to idle when he lets off the gas in M5. Of course, he might not be letting all the way off the gas. IDK.
06-12-2011, 08:16 AM
#36
"Do you mean in D4 & D5 with speed over 80 km/h - 50 MPH, The RPM should not drop down if i released the the accelerator pedal?"
That's correct. The rpms should not drop suddenly when you let off the gas.
At the start and toward the end of the video, he's in D, and he lets off the gas. You can hear the engine sound change, but the rpms drop slowly as the car slows. The torque converter (TC) is in lockup. There's no sudden drop in rpms.
In the middle of the video, he's in M5. When he lets off the gas, you can see the rpms drop suddenly by about 600. The TC is not in lockup.
Say I'm cruising at 60mph in D with the tach at 2000, and I know I have to stop ahead. When I let completely off the gas the tach will still show 2000. When the speed drops to 50mph, the tach will show about 1700. At 40mph, it'll show 1400. At about 37mph the TC will unlock, and the tach will drop immediately to idle.
Some transmissions have a semi-lockup mode that will provide some engine braking under certain conditions. That's probably why the engine speed in the video doesn't drop all the way to idle when he lets off the gas in M5. Of course, he might not be letting all the way off the gas. IDK.
That's correct. The rpms should not drop suddenly when you let off the gas.
At the start and toward the end of the video, he's in D, and he lets off the gas. You can hear the engine sound change, but the rpms drop slowly as the car slows. The torque converter (TC) is in lockup. There's no sudden drop in rpms.
In the middle of the video, he's in M5. When he lets off the gas, you can see the rpms drop suddenly by about 600. The TC is not in lockup.
Say I'm cruising at 60mph in D with the tach at 2000, and I know I have to stop ahead. When I let completely off the gas the tach will still show 2000. When the speed drops to 50mph, the tach will show about 1700. At 40mph, it'll show 1400. At about 37mph the TC will unlock, and the tach will drop immediately to idle.
Some transmissions have a semi-lockup mode that will provide some engine braking under certain conditions. That's probably why the engine speed in the video doesn't drop all the way to idle when he lets off the gas in M5. Of course, he might not be letting all the way off the gas. IDK.
I Know that the first suspicious thing is the fluid,But as i mentioned the level seemed to be OK to me ( i could be wrong, The dip stick is not that easy to notice the reading ). Also, Still i can feel the power to the wheels while using the cruise control switch to accelerate, & this is why i'm totally lost
.
06-12-2011, 09:47 AM
#37
Registered User
Yeah, that's really puzzling. I've got a good friend who teaches the automotive technology at the local tech college. I'll ask him about this tomorrow morning. Hopefully, he can figure out where to look for the problem.
06-12-2011, 12:09 PM
#38
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have you done a pin drag test on the harness side of the throttle body? is there a pin that has backed out? have you tested all the wires from the throttle to the dme?
converter lockup(or non lockup) could be included in the limp mode strategies of the pt can.
converter lockup(or non lockup) could be included in the limp mode strategies of the pt can.
06-12-2011, 06:39 PM
#39
.I guess it would throw a code in case of bad communicating with the ECU. Also,I did replace my throttle body & didn't notice any bad terminals, But i will make sure to check it with an ohmmeter & some e parts cleaner.
06-13-2011, 12:45 PM
#40
Registered User
I told my friend about your problem, and he thinks it's something related to the transmission control module. He said the failure to lockup could be caused by a faulty temperature sensor in the transmission or the engine. He also mentioned the mass flow sensor as something to check, but didn't elaborate on that.
The transmission won't go into lockup if the fluid or coolant isn't up to temperature, or if a faulty sensor is sending bad info that makes it look like they're not up to temperature. The slippage in the torque converter is the fastest way to get the transmission fluid temp up.
A faulty sensor wouldn't necessarily throw a code as long as the incorrect value was withing the range that is normally be seen by the system. It could affect the way the system works though.
He was also puzzled by the fact that the cruise buttons seem to work normally while the engine is in fuel cut or limp mode. It wasn't something he had seen or would have expected, but he hadn't ever tried to use the cruise buttons on a car under those conditions.
The transmission won't go into lockup if the fluid or coolant isn't up to temperature, or if a faulty sensor is sending bad info that makes it look like they're not up to temperature. The slippage in the torque converter is the fastest way to get the transmission fluid temp up.
A faulty sensor wouldn't necessarily throw a code as long as the incorrect value was withing the range that is normally be seen by the system. It could affect the way the system works though.
He was also puzzled by the fact that the cruise buttons seem to work normally while the engine is in fuel cut or limp mode. It wasn't something he had seen or would have expected, but he hadn't ever tried to use the cruise buttons on a car under those conditions.
Last edited by winchman; 06-13-2011 at 12:51 PM.