Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Ok - I misread your last post, sorry. you are correct, thee is no adaptation at WOT, it jsut runs the raw maps inputted intot eh ecu.

zzzya - I got confused between mcduck and another member, sorry - I se he has NISMO cams, I thought for some reason he was using the Tomei's..I realize thats somebody else.

Perhaps TS could get a hold of the timing/fuel maps of the NISMO ecu sold in Japan via Techtom

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I agree - I have always found Mustangs to read ont he lower end of the scale and Dynojet's tended to be a bit more agressive. nevertheless its a moot point here, as we are looking for the gains before and after on the same dyno, so not much room for error there.

As for the stalling, with the cams you will be pulling less vacuum than with stock cams...I rememebr reading that others raised their idle a couple hundred RPM's when installing cams..perhaps you need to do that as well (if not already done).

As for running too rich, i suppose it is possible that you ae too rich downlow, though its a bit hard to do with stock injectors and the such. At closed throttle or light throttle inpus, the car is in closed loop. this means its taking feedback from various sensors, and trying to maximize timing, and minimize overall A/F. Under WOT, the car goes into open loop, and thus only relies on the raw maps inputted into teh ecu (how many maps the stock car has I cannot answer, but perhaps someone from TS can let us know). Generally, most cars ave a few different WOT maps according to intake air temp, humidity, etc. Under light throttle , or no throttle (idle), /F can be leaner. At idle it should be right around 14.7, if not a tad leaner. At lower rpm's, mid 13's sounds logical to me, assuming low throttle input). Once you go WOT, A/F should be in the mid 12's, where you are.

If you could get your buddy witht he Nissan scan tool to come by the dyno next time, perhaps he can log igntiion timing and knock activity for you to see what's going on (or what the ecu thinks is going on)

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I think this is the right track. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying this but, my thought is that the bottle-neck is the Crawford highflow cats.

Consider both B18 & Jeff had the Nismo cams. These are the dynos that should be looked at the closest because that modification really distinguishes your and their set up more than any other. The difference between Jeff's 265 and B18s 251 was the Random hiflows. If that theory is correct, B18 should see 265 by adding the Random hiflows.

Let's assume for a minute that the Crawford plenum and Crawford cats don't add any power. That places your dyno right there with B18s. And, following the same theory, if you added the Randoms or testpipes, you should free up the power that Jeff found after installing the Randoms.

I would ask B18 if he added the Random cats and redynoed.

And, I apologize in advance to Crawford if I'm mistaken.

mcduck

We did that and the 2 degree timing advance prior to TS ECU and the car still stalled, but not nearly as often as it did prior to reseting idle and timing. Now, it is stalling more again... this is why we are thinking the TS flash maybe didn't hit the timing and/or raise the idle correctly. The latter would not affect the dyno, so it made more sense to figure the timing was off a little.

I think we'll get it figured out... Mark will be calling Danny at TS tomorrow. Hopefully, they can reason out some things for us to try later in the week.

hfm...
That's an interesting theory, but on the other hand, Doug's car from Crawford Z gained 38rwhp from their parts (plenum, cats, headers) and the Borla TD... pulling a final dyno of 263rwhp. That's without CAI, cams, flywheel, or pulleys. So, I can't believe their parts are not making any power. Less than the RTs... maybe, but not zero.

Some have suggested the AEM CAI has actually been losing power for Zs.... so, on the next round of dynos, I'll be sure to pull that and try the stock box to see what happens.

Me thinks we're gonna have a morning of dyno, switch parts, dyno, etc... just after the 1st of the year.

BTW, I took the Z out today for a spin, and it still feels strong. I'm not really disappointed with the feel as I drive it... I just want to make sure I'm getting the most gain possible for my investment. Hopefully, my learning experience will benefit everyone on this forum.

Juztin

iTrader: (9)

Nismo cams should of had you in the 250 range alone... If your stalling w/ cams in the first place, you definately gotta look at your ECU and other simpler checks listed earlier in the thread. I would only expect the 268's to of given possible grief w/ stalls, but no the nismo's, hope you get it all squared away and see some awsome n/a power!

mcduck

okay... I'm on my way to the airport (again!). If I manage to get on a flight today, I will not be responding to this thread for a day or two, but I'll try to monitor it if I can.

Thanks for all the comments everyone (even you hfm!)

I know you are all just trying to help and I was a bit agitated when I first started the thread.

In any case, I think our course of action will be...

1. To Nissan to check timing and idle... make adjustments if necessary.
2. Check plugs for fouling
3. Check tire pressure (hey... couldn't hurt)
4. Drop some 100-Octane pump gas in the car prior to dynoing
5. Take the car back to a different dyno and baseline as is (Have Morris or Wayne there if possible to set up comparison baseline to old dyno)
6. Remove CAI and re-install stock intake. Re-dyno same day. If there are HP gains, leave stock intake on.
7. Swap stock cats for Crawford cats. Re-dyno same day. If there are HP gains, leave stock cats on.
8* Return ECU to TechnoSquare for new A/F map if necessary. This part may occur anywhere in between steps 1-6, but would rather wait until last if we can.

Did I miss anything?

Eric1h

Stalling can also be because of a vaccumm leak, if one of your hoses is disconnected and or cracked, ripped, torn or cut, you can lose vaccum and that willsurely lose power AND make it run like crap and stall

blubyu

iTrader: (1)

Hey man, sorry about you sub par dyno numbers but I wouldn't let a dyno get you down. I say take it to the track and see what kind of numbers it pulls. I'm wanting to make a trip to the track in mid January to fayetteville. I'm trying to get a group to go with. Maybe you can round up a few 350z guys in the area that would be willing to make the trip. Its about 2 hour drive but its worth it. I'd also like to check out your car sometime.

Matt

G I Love My Car

iTrader: (4)

Hey maybe now you can out run my G35 sedan!

350_Z

iTrader: (3)

This is in no way a negative comment towars TS, but generic ECU tuning/mapping is the problem. Every engine is a little different and therefore needs slightly different mapping. Add mods to that and there is no way that TS can flash a certain mapping into an ECU and send it out and expect it to work well on every application.

You need to have you car custom tuned for the amount of mods you have.

For instance, I had a Honda Prelude with a Jackson Racing supercharger, and Hondata setup with 440cc injectors. I took it to the dyno and the tuner had a base map setup for for 6psi and 440cc injectors. That base map was supplied by Jackson Racing and Hondata for my particular setup and psi. But it still took over 10 dyno runs and multiple changes to the mapping in order to get the most power out of my setup while keeping a safe A/F ratio.

You have quite a few power mods including cams, this means that to get the most you are going to have to get it custom tuned to your particular setup.

If it were me I would have TS flash the ECU back to stock timing and fuel mapping, and just keep the raised rev limit. Then get a fuel controller such as an SAFC II and take it to a dyno to get it custom tuned to your setup. If TS offered in house custom dyno tuning for each individual setup that would be the way to go, but from everything I've read, they don't offer this service.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I wont make any excuses for first post, in retrospect, it was just wrong. If it were my dyno and I saw someone post my unhelpful comments, I would have been ticked.

If you're testing the theory, remember B18 had stock cats and had a substantial difference from Jeff. And, Jeff only saw gains by replacing his stock cats to the Randoms. I don't think you can fairly test my theory unless you're using Randoms or testpipes.

Good luck mcduck.

350z4steve

iTrader: (1)

This is the best thing to come out of this thread yet..this is a tough crowd obviously and alot of people tend to think the plenum isnt doing anything. I would not be one of them.AS I stated from the start after the Dyno ( it doesnt feel like its doing anything but then again it doesnt feel like its hurting anything either) keep in mind that was with very few "good miles" logged on the the car post install. Why is that significant? Because I was running extremely RICH before not lean..and after I installed the plenum I got a CEL. Why? I left something unplugged. ThenI did the dyno with fewer than 25 miles or basically the trip to the dyno center and a bit more.

Im pretty sure now that if I was to dyno the car again I would pull into the 260's. But im waiting for awhile or just might add a blower. Do I like the plenum? I like it alot and it works well but of course it depends on your mods and present state of tune.
My AIR is between 13.5 and 12.5 throughout. I really dont want to mess with it now..and I think the ecu has adjusted since 2 months ago quite nicely

Eric1h

great plan, you may also want to check for vacuum leaks, have your alignment checked! too much or not enough camber can hurt you dynos as well, if you dont have enough contact patch it can lower your #'s

Also what wheels did you dyno with the first time, and then again now? Even though the overall wheel/tire combo may be lighter, if you go with a larger rim size and wider tire, you are adding more rotating mass to the outside of the tire, which WILL hurt your numbers. I know you have those pretty bling bling wheels on there! Did you dyno with those?

92hatchattack

damn ... i hate posts like this ... makes me scared to go out and buy any parts for my car, for fear of just wasting my money,

my advice....... do all your checks and head to the track .... rip her down the 1/4 mile and see what she traps at ...... that will tell you what your mods have done for ya

AL350Z

well said! its like a woman working out for 6months and still saying she doesnt weigh any less but knows she looks better(muscle vs. fat).
try not to think about the dyno for awhile and get that ***** on the track. i was more anxious to hear about 1/4mile times than dyno#'s anyway. if you can cut a .65 or better reaction time and finish at 13.6 in the 1/4 then i'm totally impressed. better yet, if you finish the quarter at 104 mph or better then i'm very jealous. even with the frustration you know its fun as hell trying to figure out what works. it'll pay off soon.

FLY BY Z

Hopefully he has a little higher goals than a 13.6!! People are doing that with small mods. Also, why do you care what his reaction time would be? It has nothing to do with power, car, or anything else??

FairladyZ

I agree. I bet its the TS ecu. Did Jeff@performance have the TS ecu? Take that crap out and dyno it, with the stock Nissan settings.

zxsaint

Same here. But this brings up a good issue. Tuning a car for performance isn't about bolting on parts and expecting a fast car. It's about tuning. Before dumping a large sum of cash on all the mods available, it's wiser to spend that $50-60 getting a dyno done in between each install to keep an eye on gains(or loss) & A/F levels. This will let you adjust accordingly.

In my case, I wish I had done a baseline. But I pulled decent numbers vs. money i've spent so far and I now know what I need for more power. My A/F was perfect except I was still a little rich top end which shows I could use a bolt-on that leans out the top end. That'll easily push me into the 260's.

If I install anything that affects the low-rpm A/F, i'll definitely be running too lean and be a candidate for ECU tuning (a sector of 350z parts I dont believe has matured enough yet), so i'll avoid this.

Anyway, just a case in point. It's all about tuning these parts. My 2 cents is to remove what you can (obviously not headers and cams) and start over and dyno each addition on the same day. This means putting back intake, plenum, ecu, and cats. It'll be a bit more costly and time consuming, but I'm sure it'll give you (and us) the answers in less than a day.

mcduck

56K sucks so this will be singular post today...

hfm... wanna buy me a set of RT's? Seriously, I'll work with what we have here already, then go from there. What you state above is also what has me seriously considering it may be the AEM CAI. Jeff, B18, and I all posted lower numbers than Richard. We all hvae the Nismo/AEM CAI... Richard has the JWT Popcharger. Me thinks not that theJWT adds that much more horsepower, it's probably a combination of the JWT adding a little and the AEM dropping it a bunch on our cars.

Adding a vacuum line check to my list now, Eric! The wheels are the same that the Borla TD-only dynos where done with. I doubt the wheel alignment settings have changed enough to impact dyno numbers significantly.

The only problem with this is that I have no 1/4 mile or track times as a baseline to compare against. I could take someone with a stock Z with me, but then if I pull a few seconds better on the track, it becomes an issue of "was it the driver" blah... blah... blah... The pure numbers would be nice to see, though.

This has been discussed... is there anyway to swap ECU with another Z and bypass the security stuff? I have someone who is willing to do this if it will work, but we're having questions about getting around the theft deterrent programming.

I can always have the ECU lowleveled back to stock, but would prefer to do this last if none of the other tests yield results. I do see some benefits from the TS.

Basically where we were heading (kind of in reverse though). We're going to baseline my Z on a different dyno as is, then start pulling items off one at a time and get results for each successively "lesser" set up to see where the power is. I'll be adding the plenum to the list, though... that's a super easy swap...maybe easier than the CAI!

As before, thanks everyone. Hopefully the research we do in Charlotte in the next 2-3 weeks will help everyone here.

BTW... if you want to donate a couple dollars to pay for the dyno time (we'll probably wind up on one the better part of a day), I'm not above a little charity here!

92hatchattack

if u go the track ... screw the actual 1/4 mile times .... watch your traps ... ive been to the track ... ran a 14.6 --- 14.2 ---- and 14.000 with crazy difrent 60 foots ... yet all my traps were withing 0.5 mph . .....

id like to see some 104 traps comming off your car at the least!