mcduck

After some more time talking to my mechanic, Mark and spending some time the past few days running through logical analysis of what we are seeing, it has been concluded that the main culprits in my substandard dynos are...

DO NOT BUY...
1 - the AEM CAI ($250ish)
2 - the TechnoSquare ECU ($650ish)

Some of the other factors we talked about in this thread may contribute (and will be checked also), but these two seem to make the most sense for resulting in my dynos being 10-20hp lower than they should be.

Following are the reasons for thinking this...

AEM CAI
There have been several posts in the past where people with the AEM setup have gotten less hp or no hp gains after install. Further, when I dynoed so did Morris (owner of a LSS with hi-flow cats and borla TD). Morris has a standard intake. With Plenum, cams, and headers to boot, I should be a good 20hp more than him. I was only above his numbers by 14hp or so... but I have the AEM. It is one of the few things that makes sense. If it is robbing 5-10hp, then my dynos would be in line with what we expected to see when comparing the two 350Zs dynoed that day.

Further, the people with setups similar to me using the stock box or the JWT popcharger are pulling more acceptable numbers. Those with the AEM/NISMO CAI are pulling lesser numbers. It seems logical that the AEM is a factor.

TechnoSquare ECU
DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON THIS. I was, at first, just disappointed in the difference between before and after TS-ing my ECU. Now I'm pissed because TechnoSquare is being very unhelpful in resolving the issue. We are certain the TS is at the heart of my issues based on the conversation Mark had with Danny at TS on Monday. Following is not verbatim, but the general gist of the conversation that took place. During most of the conversation, Danny was very curt in his responses... almost as if he didn't want to bother talking to us about the issues we are having.

MARK: Explained we are having some issues with the car running smoothly and with the power output of the motor since adding the TechnoSquare ECU. To aid in troubleshooting, asked if Danny could explain what they did when they flashed the ECU

DANNY: Informed Mark that they had upped the rev limiter to 7100rpm, removed the speed limiter, re-mapped the A/F and so on. Basically, he recited without hesitation what is shown on their website. Though, he did not mention [U]anything[/] about adjusting the idle or the timing.

MARK: Explained, according to NISMO specs on the R-TUNE cams, the idle for the car needs to be bumped up 100-150rpm... did TS bump the idle?

DANNY: No, TS did not adjust the idle. This answer was given quickly and with certainty. No issue here. That is not advertised, nor did we expect it.

MARK: Explained, NISMO cams also require timing to be adjusted to account for the greater lift and duration. Did TS adjust my timing?

DANNY: Couldn't be sure... at first thought they didn't, then backpeddled and thought for sure they did. He was very evasive in answering this question. WTF?!?!?!?! This along with the A/F mix are the real reasons for flashing the ECU. Everything else is fluff!

The reason we are convinced the timing was not reset was the manner in which Danny responded to this question. All other questions were answered quickly with confidence... as if by someone who knows exactly what was done. When the timing question was asked, it was as if Danny was caught off guard or caught for a mistake they had made.

What makes this worse is that the TechnoSquare website clearly says that they adjust the timing map for your specific mods.

In my case, TechnoSquare has either applied the wrong flash that did not include the new timing data, in which case they are incompetent. OR, they knew that they were applying a flash without the timing information, in which case they are negligent.

Whether it was intentional or not, TS is at fault for not making the timing adjustments. To me this is easily 1/2 of what I paid for. The other 1/2 being the A/F mapping. My intent was to work this out with them directly, but it was apparent on the call Mark had with Danny that TechnoSquare is going to be a pain in the a$$ to work with on this and, most likely, they are going to do nothing to rectify the situation.

As it stands, I most likely will be forced to lowlevel flash the ECU back to factory settings and start from scratch, having a local Nissan dealership reset the idle and timing (and if possible make A/F adjustments). If we go this route, I will happily post my before and after dyno numbers showing that the TS ECU, in fact, lowered my engine's output. There is no doubt in my mind it is, at least in part, holding my motor back.

Other factors that point to this...
1 - Car is idling roughly, as it did prior to Nissan setting my timing and idle after the cams were first installed. After Nissan made the adjustments, car ran smoothly up until the TechnoSquare was installed.
2 - Car stalls when coming off of a high RPM quickly. Same logic as #1 above. It did this right after installing the cams, but not after timing and idle were adjusted. Is now doing this again after the TS flash
3 - Sometimes, car will not start after sitting a short while... as if it's flooded/air starved. I only know two reasons the car would do this. One would be if it is running too rich. Well, it is running richer now, but I'm told 12.5 A/F setting should be okay. The other reason this would happen is if the timing is off. If the cylinder detonation is occurring at the wrong time, the engine is not burning all the fuel in the cylinder. This could could cause it to "act" flooded.
4 - My fuel economy has dropped drastically! Before TS, I was running about 21.5mpg. Now I'm at 17.5mpg. I realize with the A/F reset to a level 12.5, my fuel efficiency would be lower, but a change of 4mpg?!?!?! This also is probably attributable to poor timing. If the timing is off, the motor is not running most efficiently for the air/fuel mix that is being injected. Therefore, the fuel efficiency would drop.

The only other possibility that explains some (but not all) of the above 4 symptoms would be a vacuum leak. I watched the engine go back together. I saw Mark and Matt double and triple check every line, wire, and hose. I have since starting this thread checked my hoses myself. There are no hoses visibly loose or open. If a vacuum hose is loose, I'd be simply awestruck.

Bottomline... if you're not going FI, I would not waste time with the TechnoSquare reflash crap. My car has done nothing but gotten worse performance, in all aspects, since adding this piece. Maybe it's helpful in FI situations, but I don't see any truly beneficial gain in what I have done.

Maybe my opinion will change if the work done incorrectly could be corrected, but with the lack of support TechnoSquare is giving us, I don't expect that to happen.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I don't think doing a reflash is a bad thing at all...doing one mailorder is a whole different story........you're a braver sole than I.

zxsaint

Don't you think this is a little hasty, considering you don't have any evidence beyond speculation?

As far as the AEM intake, my personal experience is that it seems to make some power when it's cold out... but I can feel it get heatsoaked on hot days. However, I really doubt that it's robbing enough hp to make up for your discrepancy. If your claims regarding the intake are true, I would have got 260+ on the dynojet on the socal dyno day with just a pulley and borla by replacing it with my oem intake. As unreliable as the performance parts aftermarket may be, Nissan's nismo intake system is an AEM, and it just doesn't seem like Nissan/Nismo would risk their reputation selling a product that hurts the performance of their flagship sportscar.

I agree tho, the TS situations sucks. Unfortunately you're not the only one whos posted a poor experience with the TS crew coming across as unwilling to help correct a poorly done flash. This is one of the main reasons i'm avoiding modding to a point where i'll need a ECU flash until a more reputable company like JWT comes out with one. It's just a rumor that they'll be releasing a ECU & Cam package, but I don't see why they wouldn't consider this since they had such high success and praise from the community for their ECU for the 300ZX.

I guess we'll know all the answers when you do your mega dyno tuning session.

Edit: Also just to note, considering $ spent on mods vs hp, Chazzg and I seem to lead the top dynojet #'s. He got 262/248 and I'm right behind with 257/248. It just so happens we've both got a sub $1000 AEM/Borla setup. Dyno results have a million variables, but just thought I'd throw in this coincidence.

skk100

AEM intake = sux ***, unless you live on Iceland

My Stillen SC Z would ping to all hell with the AEM intake because the tubing is aluminum (which by the way soaks heat like a sponge) during any hot days.

After Stillen had my car for 5 days they finally told me to take off the AEM. Now I got a stock box. Stick with the stock box.

zxsaint

Got this from an older thread... how's AEM to blame?

IMO, the stillen SC isn't complete without the IC. It's a requirement, not an upgrade.

dougrace zs

iTrader: (2)

Let me start by describing the facts (and opinions) as we see it regarding our cat pipes. Stock has 2 cats on each bank (fact). Ours has one hi-flow cat in position of the stock "pre-cat" (fact). Our cat has better flow transition than the stock cats (fact). Our cat has shown between 3-6 hp on a dyno (fact). Test pipes have no cats therefore best flow (fact). Test pipes will not pass visual inspection here in TN (fact). Test pipes will cause emission failures and CEL's in the future (experienced opinion). RT cats have better than stock performance (fact). RT cats will not pass visual here in TN (fact). Our cats look like real cats and can fool the best visual inspectors (opinion). We are not here to argue whos cats are better or what makes the most power. We made what we did based on research and testing with what we had to work with. We buy regular high flow cats and custom fit to a jig modeled to fit the car. I would highly doubt that anything other than stock cats will cause the phenomenon of lost hp. But anything is possible.

We have seen a loss of power on AEM intake system, and agree that it should be considered suspicious.

We have seen TS ECU cause us issues , but we are working with them by way of test cars willing to be there for us and also fedex’ing back and fourth. Lets not get carried away with blaming TS. We are all still learning.

It really gets under my skin that some people who play the part of Z car experts and performance upgrade specialists because they bought a few mods and can validate by comparing parts on different cars, different dynos, different locations, etc. Some of which have never been on a dyno. We often get the argument that we cant be trusted or believed because we are a vendor. I dont see any other vendors doing the stuff we are doing.

McDuck, you are on the right track. Keep us informed and dont get discouraged with TS. Go back to stock flash and let TS work from that. In order to do what you are wanting to do with the computer you will need a spare. We bought a extra ECU for this purpose. We tried to use a encoded key near the ignition with an uncoded key. It did not work for us.

The most important part of this post is "We are all still leaning"
If you are not sure or cant handle this fact then you need to wait on modifications. Simple as that.

zillinois

iTrader: (6)

If you do the testing, I have a spare factory ECU you can try for a 6 speed manual. I sent an email the other day about it.

I have the Technosquare ECU and I love it. Had it flashed via mail even. Have not dyno'd it yet but I can tell the low end is better because the clutch engages more forgivingly and the throttle is noticeably more responsive. This was apperent immediately after backing out of garage after intall.

To bad T.S. does not seem willing to help. That will only hurt their business.

2003z

iTrader: (7)

I initially had problems with the TS flash, which turned out to be a screwy custom exhaust, but we sent ecu's back and forth across the country til we figured out the problem. TS was a joy to work with, and went well out of their way to solve my problem.

mcduck

Doug@Crawford...

I really don't think your cats are an issue. But since we were talking about some serious dyno time, I figured I could check them out, too, and based on what my butt dyno told me when I first put them on, hoped to post confirmation of the gains they gave. There had been some speculation of too little back pressure, but I don't think that's the case.

I hope to verify my suspicions about the AEM. A lot of people speculated this is at best a net power gain of zero... it makes sense from the circumstancial evidence I have seen. Hopefully the new dynos will verify or dispell this suspicion. We'll know in a few weeks.

Um.... my problem is not that TechnoSquare either intentionally or unintentionally screwed up my ECU flash. It is their apparent lack of concern for the problem and their unwillingness to work with my mechanic to correct it.

I will admit, the AEM thoughts are informed speculation until we verify or deny the allegations.

However, I am dead on with the TechnoSquare assertation... it is not speculation and I have all the evidence I need.
Before TS flash, my car ran smoothly and would only stall when coming off VERY high RPM quickly.
The first thing Mark said me after installing TS ECU was... "Are you sure they flashed this right... the first thing I noticed is the car is running rougher".
Since we TS-ed the ECU...
the idle is rougher/choppier...
my car stalls often, even sometimes coming quickly off mid-RPM ranges...
my gas mileage has went in the ******* compared to prior to ECU. I was getting 21.5 with all my mods before TS... now I'm getting 17.5mpg. I expected it to go down, but 4mpg? C'mon...
now, my car also has a propensity to act flooded. Turn the key and the motor spins, but does not crank.

Again, I had hoped to work with TechnoSquare offboard, but they were very unhelpful when Mark called with our issues. Since they are unwilling to help, I felt it important to notify everyone here.

Do I think the TS ECU could be a good mod? Sure... but only if the company will stand behind what they do... and so far in my experience, they are not.

zillinois
I appreciate your spare ECU offer, but my unanswered question still stands... can I just swap ECU's with someone else and how is this done so it does not trip the security features? I think I can get a loaner locally if we knew it would work. That way I could test TS vs stock ECU. Can anyone tell me if it okay to do a straight swap??? This is the third time I'm asking... so far I can only assume it cannot be done.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

Doug, I'm no expert. I'm no performance upgrade specialist. I can barely figure out whether I should be using standard or metric. But, I can and will say, no vendor can be trusted until they are proven.

Jim Wolf Technologies, as an example, is a trusted vendor who have been dealing with Zs for a very long time. They are a proven vendor with the kind of reputation vendors would love to have.

Stillen, a vendor here, has had problems with responding to client complaints. Until the last few months, they have had a negative BBB rating. I will probably never buy from Stillen and I don't care if Steven Millen has been racing Zs for 20 years.

LaBree Motorsports, hell, they're good 'ol boys I met at a meet. They're great people just as I'm sure you folks at Crawford are as well. From my experience with them, they make excellent custom hand made products for our Zs. They love Mustangs, but Brent drives a 600 hp 300zxtt because he takes care of Z owners. I trust my Z with LBMS.

Crawford. Well, you guys obviously love the new Z. You guys obviously are working to develop products for our Zs. But, I know diddly squat about who you are and whether what you produce actually produces gains.

I'm no expert, but, I do know that what you're selling is expensive for what you're getting. Your prices for headers are very high. I've not seen enough independent dyno results on any of your products. I don't really care whether other vendors are doing the stuff that you're doing. What I'm looking for is value for power.

UR pulleys, proven cheap power. Borla TD exhaust, proven power for a reasonable price. Random highflow cats, proven power for a reasonable price. Crawford, still word of mouth but unproven. ATI, obvious problems regardless of bringing great performance. TS ECU, still too new to know. AEM, lots of bad reviews. JWT, proven over and over. Stillen, I'm sorry to Stillen fans but, they remain on the no go list.

Vendors are only as good as people view them and only as good as dynos prove. And, no vendor will be trusted or believed until buyers have reason to do so.

Want to prove Crawford is the real stuff? Sponsor McDuck. Do a full battery of tests on Crawford Plenum vs. stock, Crawford Headers vs. stock, Crawford Cats vs. stock. Pay for his dynos. We've read enough posts from McDuck that we know his tests would be unbiased if you paid it. You've spent $1,500 on your dynos. Spend a few hundred more for McDuck and you wont see another critical post from me.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Doug kind of answered this.

This means you cant use someone elses ecu. We tried the key trick but it did not work. Doug bought a spare ecu that had the security stuff removed so we could use it in more than one car and swap between stock and TS ecu's on the dyno.

Eric1h

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VandyZ
Doug kind of answered this.



This means you cant use someone elses ecu. We tried the key trick but it did not work. Doug bought a spare ecu that had the security stuff removed so we could use it in more than one car and swap between stock and TS ecu's on the dyno. [/QUOTE

zcouldnt you just bring the ECU to the dealership nd have them reprogram it to match your key/car? I mean what happens if your ECU goes bad, the dealership has to have a way around it.

mcduck

That's what I'm thinking, Eric... the dealership has to have some way to make adjustments... and not just idle and timing. My belief is that many dealerships are not mod friendly and don't do the tuning piece because of this.

I have found a mod friendly dealership and they know that I understand my powertrain warranty is out the window. The only thing they have stated emphatically is that they can make no modifications to my settings that cause my car to not pass emissions. Beyond that they're game. I should know more after my visit tomorrow.

As for the Crawford parts... I agree an independent source would be good way to prove the quality of them... which is why I'm running my other thread. If Crawford wants to contribute to my independent dyno testing day, I'd be more than happy to oblige them!
I certainly have spent enough on their parts so far. ;-)

That said, I can say for a fact the Crawford Hi-Flow cats add power. It may not show in your peak numbers, but you definitely feel the added pull... which means it probably a bunch of extra torque at lower RPMs. I know this because my Z was as described below, but minus the TechnoSquare and Crawford Cats. I drove it... it was strong then. Then we put the Crawford Cats on and I could tell an immediate difference. The motor was more throaty and pulled even harder. I can honestly say that the Crawford cats are the only mod I put on singularly that showed a pronounced improvement in driving performance. (I'm sure other things added power, but we did a bunch at one time remember).

zillinois
Now that my ECU question has be clarified, does that mean you have an ECU without the security stuff that you can swap out?

My current thinking is that if I really wind up testing the TS changes, I'll have to dyno, get it flashed back to factory stock, adjust timing/idle, dyno again. That will give same day TS vs. factory stock (both with idle/timing adjustment for cams) dyno numbers.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Let me be frank, if you can back LBM as stated above I can back Doug much the same. I am not paid by Doug (except by the knowledge he gives me). I do run his parts, and had a very active role in the production of every piece he has. I spent many weekends and nights at the shop both helping tweak the pieces and providing moral support (and beer runs). I guess that is why I am passionate about the parts. In my eyes they are the best pieces out there. I have my proof (yeah thats just me, I know). I have just enough real world proof to say Doug’s headers are the best (outside proof to be released soon). And I have not even dynoed mine yet . . . I figured if others can make claims without dynos I can too. It cost money to have the best, so please dont whine about prices. Do 911 owners whine that they paid too much for a better car? If you buy the piece you wont complain.

As far a Doug giving McDuck money for dyno runs, that would not be a smart thing to do. I am sure you can figure out why given your profession. Besides if he did other people like you would still not believe them because it would have been "Crawford Sponsored".

If you trust JWT. Call Jim at JWT. Ask him about Crawford Z Car.

I trust my car with Crawford Z Car Service. Everyday when I walk into the office, I see trophies, plaques, pictures, and paraphernalia from wins and top finishes. It gives me goose bumps every time . . . I know my car is in the right place. Doug knows Z's, Doug knows performance, and dougrace zs.

I know it says vendor under my name, but Doug is the vendor. I got that designation as a certification as sorts. I was there the whole way and can be considered a resource for Doug’s products. Plus it keeps me from going off on people . . most of the time. I am sure Doug and I see eye to eye on this one.

FLY BY Z

You should tell Doug that it is ok to use the heater in the winter. It's December for crying out loud!

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Yes certainly the dealership can use consult II and relearn keys to the computer. I dont think it will be an easy process (on the whole). I dont know how easy it will be for them to change it back to stock as well. My guess is TS changes things that Consult II cannot change. I am guessing that the dealership will charge you a premium to reflash the entire ecu back to stock if it can be redone. I would coordinate with TS. I know you said they have been hard to reach and may be ignoring you, so I dont know what to say to that.

If you want to hold off until after Christmas, I may be able to talk Doug into shipping out our ecu with "minimal changes" and see what that does for you (in lieu of dyno fees). Another thing is you may want to talk to TS and ask about the program they are running for mjedens car. His numbers are very nice! 293 before his last upgrade.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Haha. No kidding!

KJY9

I'm thinking you should've stopped right there and been ahead of the game

2003z

iTrader: (7)

as far as using someone's spare computer, here is what I suggest.

Take the spare and have it sent to TS to have the security code removed (maybe the dealer can, but I know TS can, because we tried different ecu's in my car). When the security code is erased, you can put it in your car, however, once you restart the car, a new code will be generated, and the old, modified ecu will no longer be useable.
You can test both ecu's the same day this way, but you will have to then resend your modified ecu back to TS to have them erase the security code again before swapping it back in.

I don't remember, do you have an O2 bung for these dyno pulls? I put one in the leading edge of one of my cats.

mcduck

It's not that we can't reach someone... it's that the someone we reached seemed very indifferent toward helping us solve the problem.

also, let me clarify... if we can get the TechnoSquare to work with some tweaking (tomorrow), I will leave on the TechnoSquare flash. I know for a fact that they did the A/F piece, so it's half right at least and I like the 7100rpm redline.

My problem with TechnoSquare at this point is that I should not have to go to Nissan tomorrow morning, possibly spend $100-$150 more for them to hook it up to Consult II and make the necessary timing adjustments and idle adjustments. Those should all be factored in as part of the NISMO cam portion of flashing the ECU.

VandyZ...
don't try to defend Crawford Z... I know you mean well, but you are closely affiliated with them and people will read into it many things which may or may not be there. In a few weeks, I hopefully will have some independent dynos to confirm everything you are stating.... and yes, I agree that Crawford should not kick in on the cost so it does not appear they are sponsoring the effort. If it is truly going to be independent, I'll have to have donations from my350z.com members, not from any of the parts vendors.