Rotary Valves on a VQ35DE anyone?
10-28-2013, 05:18 PM
#1
Rotary Valves on a VQ35DE anyone?
http://www.v-eight.com/multimedia/pdf/AutoTechBRV.pdf
Vendors - GO.
Shut-up and take my money pre-order list:
1. mcarther101
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Holy ****, holy ****, holy ****. I just read they're making a kit available for the LS1. LS1 engine swap + rotary valves + 350z... 600-800whp naturally aspirated anyone?
Last edited by mcarther101; 10-28-2013 at 05:39 PM.
10-28-2013, 06:29 PM
#2
seems a little gimmicky and appears they have issues with at least one cylinder firing correctly. also they list how long they have been working on it but no equivalent miles for long term reliability
on top of that, while i dont doubt it probably burns fast, our current airflow restrictions are from x volume maxing airspeed, spinning a valve around wont change the maximum a certain volume port can suddenly flow so the 45% increased flow im going to say is grossly overstates or they are using MUCH larger volumes.
also if you have any intention of changing what would be "lift" or "duration" on a current vehicle you would have massive machine charges to alter the valves to perfectly match the engine to the rpm range. every head shop will need a expert with CFD and CAD to have any hope to work on them.
i have a feeling it will be example like the wankel, a much better idea on paper then in reality.
on top of that, while i dont doubt it probably burns fast, our current airflow restrictions are from x volume maxing airspeed, spinning a valve around wont change the maximum a certain volume port can suddenly flow so the 45% increased flow im going to say is grossly overstates or they are using MUCH larger volumes.
also if you have any intention of changing what would be "lift" or "duration" on a current vehicle you would have massive machine charges to alter the valves to perfectly match the engine to the rpm range. every head shop will need a expert with CFD and CAD to have any hope to work on them.
i have a feeling it will be example like the wankel, a much better idea on paper then in reality.
10-28-2013, 06:45 PM
#3
Ya, the rotary engine came to mind when I read about this too, and I wonder about it's actual practicality. Hard to change the status quo, but the principle is so mechanically simple it's hard to ignore the possibilities.
Imagine a VQ35DE where the only rev limit is the bottom end. No floating valves, no excessive wear from high force dual spring rates. 15:1 compression on 93 octane pump gas without knock. Who knows what would be possible on E85, meth/water injection, race gas, or diesel! No valve-piston contact issues, so no limit to compression.
I did see that #1 cylinder looked to be not firing as often as the other 3, but am not sure if that's some video recording illusion, or what. It is in development though, so that's understandable, and with the right resources I think this technology could revolutionize the 4 stroke engine. I mean F1 banned the technology basically to keep all things equal between teams, and so no one would have a huge competitive advantage. Clearly there was something there.
As far as long term reliability, it is mostly gear-based, and would have low stress compared to say a transmission. With modern alloys, I don't think reliability would be an issue. It clearly would have less wear over time than traditional race cams.
More info on this, apparently it's been done on old short blocks:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/1...-Heads-(Coates)
http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv-system.html
If it's reliable in an industrial generator, it would be reliable in a car engine. Industrial generators have to be.
Imagine a VQ35DE where the only rev limit is the bottom end. No floating valves, no excessive wear from high force dual spring rates. 15:1 compression on 93 octane pump gas without knock. Who knows what would be possible on E85, meth/water injection, race gas, or diesel! No valve-piston contact issues, so no limit to compression.
I did see that #1 cylinder looked to be not firing as often as the other 3, but am not sure if that's some video recording illusion, or what. It is in development though, so that's understandable, and with the right resources I think this technology could revolutionize the 4 stroke engine. I mean F1 banned the technology basically to keep all things equal between teams, and so no one would have a huge competitive advantage. Clearly there was something there.
As far as long term reliability, it is mostly gear-based, and would have low stress compared to say a transmission. With modern alloys, I don't think reliability would be an issue. It clearly would have less wear over time than traditional race cams.
More info on this, apparently it's been done on old short blocks:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/1...-Heads-(Coates)
http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv-system.html
If it's reliable in an industrial generator, it would be reliable in a car engine. Industrial generators have to be.
Last edited by mcarther101; 10-28-2013 at 08:39 PM.
10-30-2013, 02:57 PM
#4
honestly i would put more stock in the koenigsegg tech using electronic valve it seems to be far more reliable, and the fact that you have a near instant acceleration rate would give you very similar performance gains as the rotary valves without complex sealing issues and massive machining costs for power band alteration. it wouldnt be as quick burning but then again you also wouldnt have potential durability issues. then combustion chambers are always advancing also so that helps with quicker burns.
i wouldnt judge it on f1 banning it though, they do random *** things for apparently no reasons. such as the giant fans on the undersides of cars for static down force. yah mclaren started the tech but it caught on pretty quickly and almost if not all cars where using it/building a car with it when f1 banned it. thats why grass roots racing classes keep popping up because the pro racing classes dont really provide for innovation anymore.
my main concern with durability would simply be seals, and the cylinders themselves which seems looking at it is one of the biggest challenges they have had with the tech.
also industrial generators arnt as reliable as you think, thats what we used in the stan and those damn things where constantly breaking down. each one had two backup units since we knew it would go down. plus we would have like 30-40 3k small ones just sitting around too just in case lol.
dont get me wrong if it works it works, im just weary of the potential issues especially the ones they already have and then of course the need to pretty much have custom machine work done to swap "cams"
i wouldnt judge it on f1 banning it though, they do random *** things for apparently no reasons. such as the giant fans on the undersides of cars for static down force. yah mclaren started the tech but it caught on pretty quickly and almost if not all cars where using it/building a car with it when f1 banned it. thats why grass roots racing classes keep popping up because the pro racing classes dont really provide for innovation anymore.
my main concern with durability would simply be seals, and the cylinders themselves which seems looking at it is one of the biggest challenges they have had with the tech.
also industrial generators arnt as reliable as you think, thats what we used in the stan and those damn things where constantly breaking down. each one had two backup units since we knew it would go down. plus we would have like 30-40 3k small ones just sitting around too just in case lol.
dont get me wrong if it works it works, im just weary of the potential issues especially the ones they already have and then of course the need to pretty much have custom machine work done to swap "cams"
Last edited by jerryd87; 10-30-2013 at 02:59 PM.
10-30-2013, 02:58 PM
#5
this one seems to a be pretty massive difference from the first two links. also seems like it would be easier to sell a traditional type part since it seems just swapping the cams would be enough vs having to machine windows and heads as well with the other design.
http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv-system.html
although part of the information is wrong on the site, the reason compression ratios where lowered was because engines would knock with the lesser octane rating, and the compression was lowered far more then 10:1, even 9:1 was considered high for pump gas and needed premium on the old combustion chamber designs cant think of any at the time that still ran 10:1 on pump. had a couple my grandfather converted back when i was first getting started and saw first hand. he bought them thinking they had already been converted with lower compression pistons and hardened valve seats found out after running they wernt.(old AMC engines for jeeps)
also we dont have unburnt fuel like it says during much of a engines operation since 14.7:1 is complete combustion, the engine dosnt burn oil from valve stems unless there's something leaking then the engine isnt operating properly. it mentions valve float like it happens to every engine guaranteed, never seen piston to valve contact from deceleration ever most systems are oil pressure systems which is adjusted based on rpm, so it adjusts as fast as engine rpm, others are electronic although not many and adjust faster. they list a 5.0 cylinder head flowing 133 cfm, which is ridiculously low since you can get even 2 valve small block ford(if its a ford 5.0) heads that flow just as much as their systems claimed 319 cfm based on their 5700 rpm limit it makes me think its most likely a ford 5.0 from the 80's with super smog heads where they simply lowered engine output purposely to suddenly hit emissions limits without a ton of cash invested.
i for sure wouldnt trust them with as much misinformation on their site, it tells me they either have issues with their system and want to make it seem like its the lesser of two evils or simply don't have a ton of experience and it started as some college students engineering project. seems some people in that forum are dubious of the coates one specifically as well with their questionable claims. if i were a investor or looking to purchase a complete system i would definitely go with your first links but like i said im still weary of it.
http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv-system.html
although part of the information is wrong on the site, the reason compression ratios where lowered was because engines would knock with the lesser octane rating, and the compression was lowered far more then 10:1, even 9:1 was considered high for pump gas and needed premium on the old combustion chamber designs cant think of any at the time that still ran 10:1 on pump. had a couple my grandfather converted back when i was first getting started and saw first hand. he bought them thinking they had already been converted with lower compression pistons and hardened valve seats found out after running they wernt.(old AMC engines for jeeps)
also we dont have unburnt fuel like it says during much of a engines operation since 14.7:1 is complete combustion, the engine dosnt burn oil from valve stems unless there's something leaking then the engine isnt operating properly. it mentions valve float like it happens to every engine guaranteed, never seen piston to valve contact from deceleration ever most systems are oil pressure systems which is adjusted based on rpm, so it adjusts as fast as engine rpm, others are electronic although not many and adjust faster. they list a 5.0 cylinder head flowing 133 cfm, which is ridiculously low since you can get even 2 valve small block ford(if its a ford 5.0) heads that flow just as much as their systems claimed 319 cfm based on their 5700 rpm limit it makes me think its most likely a ford 5.0 from the 80's with super smog heads where they simply lowered engine output purposely to suddenly hit emissions limits without a ton of cash invested.
i for sure wouldnt trust them with as much misinformation on their site, it tells me they either have issues with their system and want to make it seem like its the lesser of two evils or simply don't have a ton of experience and it started as some college students engineering project. seems some people in that forum are dubious of the coates one specifically as well with their questionable claims. if i were a investor or looking to purchase a complete system i would definitely go with your first links but like i said im still weary of it.
Last edited by jerryd87; 10-30-2013 at 03:26 PM.
10-30-2013, 04:30 PM
#7
Ya, I posted that link in my second thread. I emailed coates, and they got back to me saying... " You cannot Make, Use , or Sell The Coates CSRV engines without acquiring a license from the company, It is too costly for any individual. Sorry we cannot be more helpful."
So... yeah, seeing their lack of interest in expanding their market probably has some underlying long term reliability issues in it. From my reading, yes sealing the combustion chamber seems to be much more difficult for this type of head.
I also saw the 32 valve heads from that link you posted before too, interesting, but I'm probably dreaming just as much to get them to develop something for the VQ35DE.
I just really like the concept of rotary valves, but I don't think it will come to be an affordable reality any time soon on a production car engine or aftermarket.
So... yeah, seeing their lack of interest in expanding their market probably has some underlying long term reliability issues in it. From my reading, yes sealing the combustion chamber seems to be much more difficult for this type of head.
I also saw the 32 valve heads from that link you posted before too, interesting, but I'm probably dreaming just as much to get them to develop something for the VQ35DE.
I just really like the concept of rotary valves, but I don't think it will come to be an affordable reality any time soon on a production car engine or aftermarket.
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10-30-2013, 05:18 PM
#8
well the vq35 already had 4 valves i was just mentioning since you brought up the lsx platform. the vq35 actually does really well from the factory to be honest. if you where building a max effort, high rpm monster you can easily port for more power.
Ya, I posted that link in my second thread. I emailed coates, and they got back to me saying... " You cannot Make, Use , or Sell The Coates CSRV engines without acquiring a license from the company, It is too costly for any individual. Sorry we cannot be more helpful."
So... yeah, seeing their lack of interest in expanding their market probably has some underlying long term reliability issues in it. From my reading, yes sealing the combustion chamber seems to be much more difficult for this type of head.
I also saw the 32 valve heads from that link you posted before too, interesting, but I'm probably dreaming just as much to get them to develop something for the VQ35DE.
I just really like the concept of rotary valves, but I don't think it will come to be an affordable reality any time soon on a production car engine or aftermarket.
So... yeah, seeing their lack of interest in expanding their market probably has some underlying long term reliability issues in it. From my reading, yes sealing the combustion chamber seems to be much more difficult for this type of head.
I also saw the 32 valve heads from that link you posted before too, interesting, but I'm probably dreaming just as much to get them to develop something for the VQ35DE.
I just really like the concept of rotary valves, but I don't think it will come to be an affordable reality any time soon on a production car engine or aftermarket.
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