Relocating NATS Antena for the NVIS
10-24-2007, 08:32 AM
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Relocating NATS Antena for the NVIS
I've been looking into the stop/start pushbutton ignition by KPeirson and one of the main problems is getting the vehicle to be totaly keyless. I've spent MANY hours running through the service manual getting as much info as possible to see if the car it self holds the answer.
Well I've been posting this up in the Pacific forums as a running notes on what I've been finding research wise. https://my350z.com/forum/pacific/309881-for-you-guys-that-are-interested-in-pushbutton-start.html
Well this is what I have so far...
So in a nut shell it looks pheasably possible on paper to relocate the NATS Antena with out having to cut any wires. They key looks like it only needs to be within an inch or so from the antena for the first 5 seconds of the ignition process. There have been proven concepts that the car will start with out the ignition switch via a push button start. The next step to prove this is a viable modification is isolating the NATS antena (about 2 feet) from the ignition switch and starting the car via the ignition and a spare registered key on the NATS antena. The antena looks fairly easy to remove from the ignition switch, only one screw. If that works than KPeirson has the proven modification for Stage 2 to makes it more capable than the invisioned stage three of the setup. You get to keep your factory NVIS system and no extra keyfobs floating arround. Now if the ignition switch can be removed all together then we wont have to worry about that pesky steering wheel lock.
Others have mentioned about the fact that in most cars with keyless start has several antenas arround. The Z only has the one. All the other features for the NVIS and antitheft system are switches and sensors that trip when the vehcle is tampered with. The NATS antena is the only one that is active, trying to aquire the chip signal. So relocate this to under your center console, ashtray, nav cubbie, or where ever else you can dream of throwing your keys and your push button start will work like factory.
So any one want to give this a try? I would check it out but Im currently out of the country. I will tryi as soon as I get back and have free time.
Well I've been posting this up in the Pacific forums as a running notes on what I've been finding research wise. https://my350z.com/forum/pacific/309881-for-you-guys-that-are-interested-in-pushbutton-start.html
Well this is what I have so far...
Originally Posted by punish_her
Im going to refrence this guys thread for wiring the S2K switch because he has some real good photos of the starter wiring harnes. https://my350z.com/forum/showpost.ph...52&postcount=1
So for the wiring on the ignition switch conector, the set up goes as followed (according to PG10, 11, 14, & 15 in the service manual)
Pin 1 White/Lavander Power into the ignition switch from the battery
Pin 2 White/Blue Power out when in the ACC/ON position
Pin 3 Black/ Red Power out when in the ING position
Pin 4 White/ Red Power out in the START position (momentary)
Pin 5 White/ Green Provides power to the day time running lamps. (If aplicapable)
These are the only wires (1-4) that feed the ignition switch. Once they are used in the start stop switch, there is no code thrown for vehicle theft. So there definately should be no problem getting rid of the ignition switch if it came to that step and using the NATS antena seperately.
So for the wiring on the ignition switch conector, the set up goes as followed (according to PG10, 11, 14, & 15 in the service manual)
Pin 1 White/Lavander Power into the ignition switch from the battery
Pin 2 White/Blue Power out when in the ACC/ON position
Pin 3 Black/ Red Power out when in the ING position
Pin 4 White/ Red Power out in the START position (momentary)
Pin 5 White/ Green Provides power to the day time running lamps. (If aplicapable)
These are the only wires (1-4) that feed the ignition switch. Once they are used in the start stop switch, there is no code thrown for vehicle theft. So there definately should be no problem getting rid of the ignition switch if it came to that step and using the NATS antena seperately.
Originally Posted by punish_her
After going over the wiring diagrams it does look possible to totaly isolate the NATS antena from the main bundle. The antena is connected directly to the body control module (BCM) by 4 wires with no the splices or connectors down the line. It conects to the system via a 8 pin connector with 4 active pins (1 Lavender,3 green/white,5 black,7brown). For service manual refrence BL-123 is the page with the vehicle wiring for the NATS system,The signal travels through the BCM directly to the ECM which either allows the car to start or imobilizes the car.
Since there is a connector by on the NATS end of the line it is possible to remove the NATS, unplug it, seperate the bundles, rerun the NATS bundle where you need it then reinstall the NATS antena.
So with the last info of the ignition wiring and the NATS wiring, Im 95% certain that it should be possible to relocate your NATS antena. Now the last 5% is the proof of concept. Again... any guinne pigs on a temp relocation of about 2 feet to see if the antena truely does allow the car to start with out being next to the ignition switch.
Since there is a connector by on the NATS end of the line it is possible to remove the NATS, unplug it, seperate the bundles, rerun the NATS bundle where you need it then reinstall the NATS antena.
So with the last info of the ignition wiring and the NATS wiring, Im 95% certain that it should be possible to relocate your NATS antena. Now the last 5% is the proof of concept. Again... any guinne pigs on a temp relocation of about 2 feet to see if the antena truely does allow the car to start with out being next to the ignition switch.
So in a nut shell it looks pheasably possible on paper to relocate the NATS Antena with out having to cut any wires. They key looks like it only needs to be within an inch or so from the antena for the first 5 seconds of the ignition process. There have been proven concepts that the car will start with out the ignition switch via a push button start. The next step to prove this is a viable modification is isolating the NATS antena (about 2 feet) from the ignition switch and starting the car via the ignition and a spare registered key on the NATS antena. The antena looks fairly easy to remove from the ignition switch, only one screw. If that works than KPeirson has the proven modification for Stage 2 to makes it more capable than the invisioned stage three of the setup. You get to keep your factory NVIS system and no extra keyfobs floating arround. Now if the ignition switch can be removed all together then we wont have to worry about that pesky steering wheel lock.
Others have mentioned about the fact that in most cars with keyless start has several antenas arround. The Z only has the one. All the other features for the NVIS and antitheft system are switches and sensors that trip when the vehcle is tampered with. The NATS antena is the only one that is active, trying to aquire the chip signal. So relocate this to under your center console, ashtray, nav cubbie, or where ever else you can dream of throwing your keys and your push button start will work like factory.
So any one want to give this a try? I would check it out but Im currently out of the country. I will tryi as soon as I get back and have free time.
Last edited by punish_her; 10-24-2007 at 08:37 AM.
11-01-2007, 02:57 AM
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The factory intelligent key systems use several systems to determine where the key is at in relation to the drivers seat, so the car can only be started when the driver is in the drivers seat.
From what I understand, if the key is in the passenger seat the car won't start. Also, if the key is inside the car the trunk release button won't work, etc.
The big difference here is that the multiple sensors are used for convenience features, the Zs single sensor is used strictly for security.
Keep in mind, that you will be eliminating 2 of the 3 security features offered by the factory. There have been various reports on how secure the OEM Nissan transponder system is. I think I would trust it for the most part, but not enough to base a complete system around it (hence the inclusion of RFID).
From what I understand, if the key is in the passenger seat the car won't start. Also, if the key is inside the car the trunk release button won't work, etc.
The big difference here is that the multiple sensors are used for convenience features, the Zs single sensor is used strictly for security.
Keep in mind, that you will be eliminating 2 of the 3 security features offered by the factory. There have been various reports on how secure the OEM Nissan transponder system is. I think I would trust it for the most part, but not enough to base a complete system around it (hence the inclusion of RFID).
11-01-2007, 03:53 AM
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The trunk wont open with the key in the ignition and in the on or start position. I had opened it many times while the key was in the car. It has to do with a key switch state. Trying to find that info out.
The only other things I found in the service manual about other safety features for the NVIS is the door key switch. That if the door is opened with out the key or fob, it imobilizes the vehicle. Most of the other features are switches not antenas. You are correct if the key is in the passanger seat it wont start, the NATS antena has a range of a few inches.
The service manual even says the NATS antena for the FOB is only active for 5 seconds. As long as the chip is in range of the NATS antena in that 5 seconds then the vehicle will start. According to the service manual the the other NVIS switches have to be manualy changed state do imobilize the car. The NATS one is the only proxemity in relation to the key chip. Yes other cars have proximity sensors all over the car but from what I've seen the Z doesnt.
If you have any service manual refrences where you got your info, can you pass them along Id like to see what its says.
The only other things I found in the service manual about other safety features for the NVIS is the door key switch. That if the door is opened with out the key or fob, it imobilizes the vehicle. Most of the other features are switches not antenas. You are correct if the key is in the passanger seat it wont start, the NATS antena has a range of a few inches.
The service manual even says the NATS antena for the FOB is only active for 5 seconds. As long as the chip is in range of the NATS antena in that 5 seconds then the vehicle will start. According to the service manual the the other NVIS switches have to be manualy changed state do imobilize the car. The NATS one is the only proxemity in relation to the key chip. Yes other cars have proximity sensors all over the car but from what I've seen the Z doesnt.
If you have any service manual refrences where you got your info, can you pass them along Id like to see what its says.
11-01-2007, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by KPierson
The factory intelligent key systems use several systems to determine where the key is at in relation to the drivers seat, so the car can only be started when the driver is in the drivers seat.
From what I understand, if the key is in the passenger seat the car won't start. Also, if the key is inside the car the trunk release button won't work, etc.
The big difference here is that the multiple sensors are used for convenience features, the Zs single sensor is used strictly for security.
Keep in mind, that you will be eliminating 2 of the 3 security features offered by the factory. There have been various reports on how secure the OEM Nissan transponder system is. I think I would trust it for the most part, but not enough to base a complete system around it (hence the inclusion of RFID).
From what I understand, if the key is in the passenger seat the car won't start. Also, if the key is inside the car the trunk release button won't work, etc.
The big difference here is that the multiple sensors are used for convenience features, the Zs single sensor is used strictly for security.
Keep in mind, that you will be eliminating 2 of the 3 security features offered by the factory. There have been various reports on how secure the OEM Nissan transponder system is. I think I would trust it for the most part, but not enough to base a complete system around it (hence the inclusion of RFID).
Excerp from https://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=309881
Originally Posted by punish_her
Ok found some answers out about the key fob operation starting at BL-49
Key fob signal is inputted to BCM (the antenna of the system is combined with BCM).
The remote keyless entry system controls operation of the
power door lock
hazard and horn reminder
auto door lock
interior lamp and step lamp
panic alarm
back door opener
keyless power window down (open)
The Key fob antena is for body control, and have nothing to do with the key switch states; are read through the BCM. This has nothing to do with the NVIS control.
The back door is disabled when the key switch state for the ignition is on. There is a key switch in the rear of the ignition switch conector M25 and has a single continuity 2 wire conector. When the key switch is in the on POS; pin 62 of conector M3 of the BCM system has 12+vdc as well as continuity between pins 1&2 of the key switch.
It looks as if the Key switch is used as a saftey interlock to complete a circuit connected to pin 62 of M3 providing power to the BCM. With the key switch in the on pos the BCM has power and deactivets the trunk hatch remote operation. When the key switch is off, it can open the trunk. So the key CAN be in the car and open the trunk.
As I've found so for the key switch effects: key reminder (beeping when driver side door switch is on and key switch is on), programming of the new key ID( key switch off no power to BCM directly); provides power to the BCM (power on BCM has power). This would mean that a simple relay would need to be install that under power it would enable continuity between pins 1&2 I guess getting power with a relay when the ON/IG is on. Not a hard problem to fix. Those are the only 2 connectors on the Ignition switch, the power/groud connector and the key switch connector.
The key switch refrences are all throughout the BL series and is outlined in the walk through and trouble shooting sections. I'll try to find the wiring diagram for the key switch. With the key switch on a relay its activation is automatic with the initial push of the button or how ever its wired.
Key fob signal is inputted to BCM (the antenna of the system is combined with BCM).
The remote keyless entry system controls operation of the
power door lock
hazard and horn reminder
auto door lock
interior lamp and step lamp
panic alarm
back door opener
keyless power window down (open)
The Key fob antena is for body control, and have nothing to do with the key switch states; are read through the BCM. This has nothing to do with the NVIS control.
The back door is disabled when the key switch state for the ignition is on. There is a key switch in the rear of the ignition switch conector M25 and has a single continuity 2 wire conector. When the key switch is in the on POS; pin 62 of conector M3 of the BCM system has 12+vdc as well as continuity between pins 1&2 of the key switch.
It looks as if the Key switch is used as a saftey interlock to complete a circuit connected to pin 62 of M3 providing power to the BCM. With the key switch in the on pos the BCM has power and deactivets the trunk hatch remote operation. When the key switch is off, it can open the trunk. So the key CAN be in the car and open the trunk.
As I've found so for the key switch effects: key reminder (beeping when driver side door switch is on and key switch is on), programming of the new key ID( key switch off no power to BCM directly); provides power to the BCM (power on BCM has power). This would mean that a simple relay would need to be install that under power it would enable continuity between pins 1&2 I guess getting power with a relay when the ON/IG is on. Not a hard problem to fix. Those are the only 2 connectors on the Ignition switch, the power/groud connector and the key switch connector.
The key switch refrences are all throughout the BL series and is outlined in the walk through and trouble shooting sections. I'll try to find the wiring diagram for the key switch. With the key switch on a relay its activation is automatic with the initial push of the button or how ever its wired.
In a nutshell its a cheap security feature, key in the ignition; 12V power is provided to BCM which inturn provides power to NATS. Key out... NO POWER NO START.
EDIT: I was just thinking about it, since its a 12V power that's ALWAYS on pin 2 and no data; with the key swithch just providing power through pin 1 to BCM, it may be possible to splice relay between pin 2 and pin 1 wire to provide a 12v source that comes on before the car starts on the push button.
excerp from the manual:
Power is supplied at all times
to BCM terminal 7
through 40A fusible link (letter F , located in the fuse and fusible link box).
to key switch terminal 2
through 10A fuse (No.21,located in the fuse and fusible link box).
and
When the key switch is ON (key is inserted in ignition key cylinder), power is supplied
through key switch terminal 1
to BCM terminal 1.
KPierson make sence to you? We may not need the key switch to be intact to be on a relay at all. Does your switch have a 12V source thats available before the Start kicks in and throughout the process (similar to the ON/IGN position). If so that can provide power to a relay to trip the key switch circuit.
Last edited by punish_her; 11-01-2007 at 05:58 AM.
11-01-2007, 06:25 AM
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The current module only has a starter output.
It is designed around using the key, so for simplicitys sake there is no voltage outputs for IGN/engine ACC/body ACC.
These are all features that would be present in a stage 3 version of the module, as well as a dedicated key sense output, in case it would be needed.
My stage 3 plan is to use RFID to provide the security and distance needed for convenience and to bypass the NATS with a remote start type bypass (only active once the RFID signal is verified). This would leave two different forms of security present (nats and RFID), while eliminated two (mechanical wheel lock and key).
It is designed around using the key, so for simplicitys sake there is no voltage outputs for IGN/engine ACC/body ACC.
These are all features that would be present in a stage 3 version of the module, as well as a dedicated key sense output, in case it would be needed.
My stage 3 plan is to use RFID to provide the security and distance needed for convenience and to bypass the NATS with a remote start type bypass (only active once the RFID signal is verified). This would leave two different forms of security present (nats and RFID), while eliminated two (mechanical wheel lock and key).
11-01-2007, 07:34 AM
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MAN... you realy gotta make this dificult dont you? J/K
Still not a problem. That woud just mean you have a "diagnostic" switch that controls ACC hidden some where that doesnt need to be accessed unless needed. A visible IGN switch to provide power to your switch for the starter.
The IGN switch would be wired the same way as I mentioned for the ACC switch. The only diffrence in the wiring would be the 12v constant would be provided to the front side of the "diagnostic" switch and the ING switch. This would turn on the BCM prior to starting the car so it might work out pretty well.
EDIT: This brianstorming thing is helping the dynamic thought process. The steering wheel lock/ ignition switch seems some what simple to remove, just gotta take your time and take it out of the assembly on the steering column.
Still not a problem. That woud just mean you have a "diagnostic" switch that controls ACC hidden some where that doesnt need to be accessed unless needed. A visible IGN switch to provide power to your switch for the starter.
The IGN switch would be wired the same way as I mentioned for the ACC switch. The only diffrence in the wiring would be the 12v constant would be provided to the front side of the "diagnostic" switch and the ING switch. This would turn on the BCM prior to starting the car so it might work out pretty well.
EDIT: This brianstorming thing is helping the dynamic thought process. The steering wheel lock/ ignition switch seems some what simple to remove, just gotta take your time and take it out of the assembly on the steering column.
Last edited by punish_her; 11-01-2007 at 07:38 AM.
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07-25-2013, 10:00 AM
#8
Ok if anyone is interested, I just installed a keyless push button start from digital guard dawg on my 04 Z. It works great, 1st push acc only 2nd ing on, 3rd start, u can also go right to start anytime, push on brake pedal, push button for 2sec for shut down. Now as far as the nats ant, had the same idea about moving it, & just throwing the keys in the ctr console or the nav box, but the ant is only good for about 2-3 inches & is very touchy about the exact position to the key transponder, Now as far as the locking steering, it's machanical spring loaded oval plunger that inserts into the shaft. There are in fact only 2 ant's in the Z the one everyone talks about that's located on top of the ign switch, & the other one is part of the BCM that works with the fob. I think the best way to do the conversion is to cut a working key, leave the ign switch in it's factory posItion, insert the cut off key shaft in the lock leave enough to turn it to the on pos, & spot tie the transponder part to the back of the switch. That's what I did, so u still have alarms like lights on when u forget & get out of the car, no issues with locking steering etc. The system I have only requires 5 wires to install, & 2 of them are grounds. Now I know what ur thinking at this point..what about security? well the only way the button becomes active in any way is when u use the fob to open the doors and deactivate the factory alarm system, so someone would need my fob. The way newer cars are stolen these days is by towing trucks. The 2 thinks I absolutly have to get from my push button system is DEPENDABILITY & convenience!! I think I got both now!
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