Okay, done reserving my opinion.
Okay, done reserving my opinion.
Okay, done reserving my opinion. This new policy sucks.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....546#post359546
I can do a group buy for forum members at least $100 less than this forum members sponsors and more than $200 less than retail for a particular product. But, I can't post that for our members unless the vendor decides to sponsor this forum. For 35 forum members, that was a savings of over $7,000.00 from retail. Double that for the G35s and we're talking over $14,000.00.
I can do group buys for headers, downpipes, true dual exhausts for the Z and for the G35 for much less than this site's sponsor for the same product. But, members will never see that due to this new policy.
I understand the reason. The sponsor is paying bandwith. Thing is, I don't think that Takeo is worried about that bandwith. He paid what, $20k for this site from Zman. I think that was partly due to his interest in selling Crystal Guard and partly because he wanted to do something for the community. Takeo is that way, I know that he's very much into philanthropy. This new policy flies into the face of what I know about Takeo and what he does.
This was the best 350Z site on the internet. Now, I believe it's a sell out based upon this new policy.
Let's see if this post gets deleted or if I get banned. This post does not violate any forum regulation, is my personal opinion. If either happen, this post will resurface with further detail. That's not a threat, just notice. Mike, let's see what the members think.
[Edit: Math *sigh*]
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....546#post359546
I can do a group buy for forum members at least $100 less than this forum members sponsors and more than $200 less than retail for a particular product. But, I can't post that for our members unless the vendor decides to sponsor this forum. For 35 forum members, that was a savings of over $7,000.00 from retail. Double that for the G35s and we're talking over $14,000.00.
I can do group buys for headers, downpipes, true dual exhausts for the Z and for the G35 for much less than this site's sponsor for the same product. But, members will never see that due to this new policy.
I understand the reason. The sponsor is paying bandwith. Thing is, I don't think that Takeo is worried about that bandwith. He paid what, $20k for this site from Zman. I think that was partly due to his interest in selling Crystal Guard and partly because he wanted to do something for the community. Takeo is that way, I know that he's very much into philanthropy. This new policy flies into the face of what I know about Takeo and what he does.
This was the best 350Z site on the internet. Now, I believe it's a sell out based upon this new policy.
Let's see if this post gets deleted or if I get banned. This post does not violate any forum regulation, is my personal opinion. If either happen, this post will resurface with further detail. That's not a threat, just notice. Mike, let's see what the members think.
[Edit: Math *sigh*]
Last edited by hfm; Jul 3, 2003 at 11:57 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
I'd have to agree with HFM and partially with the policy.
Paying sponsors should get better exposure. If you look at ANY sites for "premium advertisement", those paying more get the flashy banners, more text, more visible... etc. I think this is what should be done instead of excluding other vendors completely.
Competition among vendors for the same item brings lower prices to the consumer (i.e. the board and it's members).
A compromise should be made where, for example... in the shop section of this web-site, members can view products and vendors selling them. Vendors paying more get more exposure (top listings, etc.) If we can expand the board to allow vendors to log-in and edit their offerings... this really could be a good marketplace since we can bring all the vendors into one area (similar to pricegrabber.com etc.)
THAT I think is a more reasonable policy than all or nothing.
HFM's opinion I think is valid in that respect... that the policy is not a fair compromise between benefitting the members AND the vendors at the same time. The policy is currently lopsided towards the paying vendors.
Anyways enuf said. Go Dan (the man) for spearheading the consumer advocacy post!
Paying sponsors should get better exposure. If you look at ANY sites for "premium advertisement", those paying more get the flashy banners, more text, more visible... etc. I think this is what should be done instead of excluding other vendors completely.
Competition among vendors for the same item brings lower prices to the consumer (i.e. the board and it's members).
A compromise should be made where, for example... in the shop section of this web-site, members can view products and vendors selling them. Vendors paying more get more exposure (top listings, etc.) If we can expand the board to allow vendors to log-in and edit their offerings... this really could be a good marketplace since we can bring all the vendors into one area (similar to pricegrabber.com etc.)
THAT I think is a more reasonable policy than all or nothing.
HFM's opinion I think is valid in that respect... that the policy is not a fair compromise between benefitting the members AND the vendors at the same time. The policy is currently lopsided towards the paying vendors.
Anyways enuf said. Go Dan (the man) for spearheading the consumer advocacy post!
New Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,644
Likes: 0
From: Philly burbs
hfm, I can assure you that you will not be banned. You have every right to question the policies here. I'm a little put off that you feel that you might be punished for voicing your opinion...it has never been the policy of this site to squelch feedback, positive or negative. If it were, I would be joining you and the many others in the rush to the door.
All I will say concerning this topic is that I think what the people who run this site and make the rules must realize is that the site exists because of its members. This site is its members. The guiding principle on policies and organization must be "what will benefit our members the most?"
That said, I understand that allowances have to made for our sponsors. They have to feel that they are receiving value for the money they inject into the site, which is also of benefit to the members. I think it will be good for the site (and therefore the members, since they are one and the same) to have relationships with many sponsors...there is no reason why this can not be a mutually beneficial thing.
I hope that the current issue is just a mere organizational snafue, another growing pain that will be dealt with properly. My impression of our new admin Mike is that he will do what it takes to keep the membership our top priority.
All I will say concerning this topic is that I think what the people who run this site and make the rules must realize is that the site exists because of its members. This site is its members. The guiding principle on policies and organization must be "what will benefit our members the most?"
That said, I understand that allowances have to made for our sponsors. They have to feel that they are receiving value for the money they inject into the site, which is also of benefit to the members. I think it will be good for the site (and therefore the members, since they are one and the same) to have relationships with many sponsors...there is no reason why this can not be a mutually beneficial thing.
I hope that the current issue is just a mere organizational snafue, another growing pain that will be dealt with properly. My impression of our new admin Mike is that he will do what it takes to keep the membership our top priority.
Originally posted by tbcz
hfm, I can assure you that you will not be banned. You have every right to question the policies here. I'm a little put off that you feel that you might be punished for voicing your opinion...it has never been the policy of this site to squelch feedback, positive or negative. If it were, I would be joining you and the many others in the rush to the door.
Sorry if you're put off and thanks for that reassurance. However, I've never had threads deleted before until this issue came up. And, this is the first time I've said anything that questions the policies of this forum. I don't know what to expect and was ready for the worst.
I know you would never ban someone due to his beliefs. Mike I don't know and he's the temporary administrator. He just popped out of thin air and I have no idea who he is, what his philosophy is or what he would do when someone questions forum policy. All I know is he deleted one of my threads and that's something that's never happened before.
All I will say concerning this topic is that I think what the people who run this site and make the rules must realize is that the site exists because of its members. This site is its members. The guiding principle on policies and organization must be "what will benefit our members the most?"
That said, I understand that allowances have to made for our sponsors. They have to feel that they are receiving value for the money they inject into the site, which is also of benefit to the members. I think it will be good for the site (and therefore the members, since they are one and the same) to have relationships with many sponsors...there is no reason why this can not be a mutually beneficial thing.
I hope that the current issue is just a mere organizational snafue, another growing pain that will be dealt with properly. My impression of our new admin Mike is that he will do what it takes to keep the membership our top priority.
Okay then, let's see what happens and when. As it stands, it remains my opinion that this new policy sucks. Thanks for posting tbcz.
hfm, I can assure you that you will not be banned. You have every right to question the policies here. I'm a little put off that you feel that you might be punished for voicing your opinion...it has never been the policy of this site to squelch feedback, positive or negative. If it were, I would be joining you and the many others in the rush to the door.
Sorry if you're put off and thanks for that reassurance. However, I've never had threads deleted before until this issue came up. And, this is the first time I've said anything that questions the policies of this forum. I don't know what to expect and was ready for the worst.
I know you would never ban someone due to his beliefs. Mike I don't know and he's the temporary administrator. He just popped out of thin air and I have no idea who he is, what his philosophy is or what he would do when someone questions forum policy. All I know is he deleted one of my threads and that's something that's never happened before.
All I will say concerning this topic is that I think what the people who run this site and make the rules must realize is that the site exists because of its members. This site is its members. The guiding principle on policies and organization must be "what will benefit our members the most?"
That said, I understand that allowances have to made for our sponsors. They have to feel that they are receiving value for the money they inject into the site, which is also of benefit to the members. I think it will be good for the site (and therefore the members, since they are one and the same) to have relationships with many sponsors...there is no reason why this can not be a mutually beneficial thing.
I hope that the current issue is just a mere organizational snafue, another growing pain that will be dealt with properly. My impression of our new admin Mike is that he will do what it takes to keep the membership our top priority.
Okay then, let's see what happens and when. As it stands, it remains my opinion that this new policy sucks. Thanks for posting tbcz.
Z Flier
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: VA - USA
Ok.. sponser privledges = Good!
sponser advertising = bearable when done in moderation
Sponser EXCLUSIVITY = SUCKS!
How can this be a community forum if only the sponsers are allowed to sell?
I'm all for sponsers.. and I'm all for their benefits, but a LOCK OUT of others simply isn't beneficial for the community.. it leads to bias and skewed view of the world. Its as bad as censorship.. If you can't get a honest, open view of whats going on.. this site doesn't have the same value it had before. We'll have to go elsewhere to get the 'free' or 'open' views of whats out there.. guess what.. people will not do both... they'll go where the info and freedom is.
sponser advertising = bearable when done in moderation
Sponser EXCLUSIVITY = SUCKS!
How can this be a community forum if only the sponsers are allowed to sell?
I'm all for sponsers.. and I'm all for their benefits, but a LOCK OUT of others simply isn't beneficial for the community.. it leads to bias and skewed view of the world. Its as bad as censorship.. If you can't get a honest, open view of whats going on.. this site doesn't have the same value it had before. We'll have to go elsewhere to get the 'free' or 'open' views of whats out there.. guess what.. people will not do both... they'll go where the info and freedom is.
Well if we let others come in and post freely, then what would be the point of having sponsors paying?
I see other forums (S2KI, NASIOC) using this system and they have no problems.
It's simple as this. If you are not a sponsoring vendor then you can't advertise about somethign you sell.
Example.......Companies like Borla can advertise their product, since they are not selling it. They are just gettign word out.
The reason why we started doing this sponsorship stuff is because we can't have companies selling here, making money while the site supporter (Takao) gets nothing in return.
And if vendors pay to sell then we have to enforce rules to protect their rights as sellers. It would be weird to have companies paying to sell and then have some that don't pay yet still sell.
I hope I have clarified some things, if not I will do my best to explain further.
- Mike
I see other forums (S2KI, NASIOC) using this system and they have no problems.
It's simple as this. If you are not a sponsoring vendor then you can't advertise about somethign you sell.
Example.......Companies like Borla can advertise their product, since they are not selling it. They are just gettign word out.
The reason why we started doing this sponsorship stuff is because we can't have companies selling here, making money while the site supporter (Takao) gets nothing in return.
And if vendors pay to sell then we have to enforce rules to protect their rights as sellers. It would be weird to have companies paying to sell and then have some that don't pay yet still sell.
I hope I have clarified some things, if not I will do my best to explain further.
- Mike
Originally posted by Mike Wazowski
It's simple as this. If you are not a sponsoring vendor then you can't advertise about somethign you sell.
So, Insaneamine can't sell his grounding kits unless he's a sponsoring vendor. No. Insaneamine can advertise about something he sells even though he's not a sponsoring vendor because there is no sponsor that prevents his sales.
It's like this. As long as a sponsor doesn't have a problem with a group buy, it's okay. But, when a sponsor sees that there is a better deal, he PMs the admin and says, "delete this post."
I don't see any problem with this group buy:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=borla
Or this guy:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=borla
Or this fella:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=borla
As far as I can tell, none of these group buys are from a sponsor, but they can post their group buys. I on the other hand, can't because LaBree's price is so low that someone posts to the admin and says...delete this post.
When the price gets so low that the sponsor black ***** the group buy, the thread gets deleted. Otherwise, the thread stays alive. Who does this hurt? The forum members that could have gotten the great buy.
Example.......Companies like Borla can advertise their product, since they are not selling it. They are just gettign word out.
Didn't realize that the three examples I posted above are companies. No, they can post their group buys because they don't threaten the site's sponor with lower prices. They are not like Borla in that they are not selling their product but are getting word out. They are vendors, not a manufacturer. But, they can post because their prices aren't better than this site's sponsor.
The reason why we started doing this sponsorship stuff is because we can't have companies selling here, making money while the site supporter (Takao) gets nothing in return.
And if vendors pay to sell then we have to enforce rules to protect their rights as sellers. It would be weird to have companies paying to sell and then have some that don't pay yet still sell.
So, protect the vendors even if it means that the members don't get the best deals. It's like this: sure members could save several thousand dollars by going to a non-sponsor group buy. But, because that sponsor pays me $100.00 a month, screw the non-sponsor and the members.
What this means is that Takao doesn't care at all about his members. Members be damned, you can pay more for all I care because someone is paying me. I had it wrong about Takao, he's in it for the money and, he doesn't care about members if this is his view point.
Moreover, if this point is in fact correct, then shut down the three group buys I posted above. Shut down all sales that are not from sponsors and don't just single a vendor out because your sponsor black ***** them. Shut it all down - all ads from non-sponsors and not just those ads that your sponsors can't deal with because they're just too good for forum members.
Just wait, follow through with this ******** and see how long members will stay at this site.
I hope I have clarified some things, if not I will do my best to explain further.
- Mike
Waiting for clarification because in my opinion, this policy remains totally unacceptable.
It's simple as this. If you are not a sponsoring vendor then you can't advertise about somethign you sell.
So, Insaneamine can't sell his grounding kits unless he's a sponsoring vendor. No. Insaneamine can advertise about something he sells even though he's not a sponsoring vendor because there is no sponsor that prevents his sales.
It's like this. As long as a sponsor doesn't have a problem with a group buy, it's okay. But, when a sponsor sees that there is a better deal, he PMs the admin and says, "delete this post."
I don't see any problem with this group buy:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=borla
Or this guy:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=borla
Or this fella:
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=borla
As far as I can tell, none of these group buys are from a sponsor, but they can post their group buys. I on the other hand, can't because LaBree's price is so low that someone posts to the admin and says...delete this post.
When the price gets so low that the sponsor black ***** the group buy, the thread gets deleted. Otherwise, the thread stays alive. Who does this hurt? The forum members that could have gotten the great buy.
Example.......Companies like Borla can advertise their product, since they are not selling it. They are just gettign word out.
Didn't realize that the three examples I posted above are companies. No, they can post their group buys because they don't threaten the site's sponor with lower prices. They are not like Borla in that they are not selling their product but are getting word out. They are vendors, not a manufacturer. But, they can post because their prices aren't better than this site's sponsor.
The reason why we started doing this sponsorship stuff is because we can't have companies selling here, making money while the site supporter (Takao) gets nothing in return.
And if vendors pay to sell then we have to enforce rules to protect their rights as sellers. It would be weird to have companies paying to sell and then have some that don't pay yet still sell.
So, protect the vendors even if it means that the members don't get the best deals. It's like this: sure members could save several thousand dollars by going to a non-sponsor group buy. But, because that sponsor pays me $100.00 a month, screw the non-sponsor and the members.
What this means is that Takao doesn't care at all about his members. Members be damned, you can pay more for all I care because someone is paying me. I had it wrong about Takao, he's in it for the money and, he doesn't care about members if this is his view point.
Moreover, if this point is in fact correct, then shut down the three group buys I posted above. Shut down all sales that are not from sponsors and don't just single a vendor out because your sponsor black ***** them. Shut it all down - all ads from non-sponsors and not just those ads that your sponsors can't deal with because they're just too good for forum members.
Just wait, follow through with this ******** and see how long members will stay at this site.
I hope I have clarified some things, if not I will do my best to explain further.
- Mike
Waiting for clarification because in my opinion, this policy remains totally unacceptable.
Last edited by hfm; Jul 6, 2003 at 01:44 AM.
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Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 0
From: new orleans
I think the best way to resolve this is to dissolve this policy and give sponsors some better advertising perks that are more visible from the main page.
Whatever you do, HFM is right. This policy is very elitist and flawed in many respects. In only hurts the end-users of the site who allow it to do business. These vendors are basically paying a fee so that they can control the information presented to us by this forum.
As the people who run the forum you administrators should see that this is like making us (the viewing public) wear blinders when we buy things via this forum!
Whatever you do, HFM is right. This policy is very elitist and flawed in many respects. In only hurts the end-users of the site who allow it to do business. These vendors are basically paying a fee so that they can control the information presented to us by this forum.
As the people who run the forum you administrators should see that this is like making us (the viewing public) wear blinders when we buy things via this forum!
Z Flier
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: VA - USA
Originally posted by Mike Wazowski
Well if we let others come in and post freely, then what would be the point of having sponsors paying?
Well if we let others come in and post freely, then what would be the point of having sponsors paying?
Like.. an ad section?
Dedicated Pages?
Maybe limiting what can be posted in a thread.. requiring visiting the vendor directly or something.. I dunno..
*Shutter*... email blasts?
Not saying any of these are perfect.. just thinking out loud.
I think the fact the only way to really know who sponsers are is via a sticky post kind of shows the lack of visability they have today.
Why not give sponsers a high-profile section, and demote all other activity to classifieds?
Seems to work for newspapers
I think it would be kind of cool to have a vendor section listing (with graphics, etc.. ) specials and ads.. with direct links to discussions about that specific sale, etc. A hybrid of ads/forums..
I completely disagree with this policy as well. For example, I got my Borla for $610 plus only $40 shipping from a non-vendor. I have seen it as high as $725 plus shipping. If the higher price is from a vendor, I would never have even seen the lower, MUCH more attractive price.
This site is supposedly for its members. If Tako wants to make a buck (as if he needs it), I would MUCH rather pay a small membership fee to pay for his bandwidth, and let this be a completely uninhibited marketplace where the driving forces of competition help us get the best prices on mods for our cars.
This site is supposedly for its members. If Tako wants to make a buck (as if he needs it), I would MUCH rather pay a small membership fee to pay for his bandwidth, and let this be a completely uninhibited marketplace where the driving forces of competition help us get the best prices on mods for our cars.
Originally posted by Mike Wazowski
hfm, how would you suggest that I resolve this problem then?
flynnibus has stated a solution. I'd like to hear more.
hfm, how would you suggest that I resolve this problem then?
flynnibus has stated a solution. I'd like to hear more.
1. Have their banners on this site, and
2. Have their links and banners on a dedicated vendor page, perhaps you can use the non-functioning link button on the home page and use that button to direct a forum member to a vendor page.
This is good for the sponsors and is good for the members who will now have one page to go to when they're looking to buy something. Catagorizing vendors would be very helpful.
Sponsors should have no ability to control the content of any members posts. The only individuals who should have that power are the moderators and the administrator for the purpose of enforcing forum regulations.
If anyone can offer any other suggestions to offer sponsors value for support of this forum, those opinions are welcome. Please post your suggestions because advertising/marketing and sales is not my area of expertise. All you intelligent people, post your thoughts and lets give our forum's sponsors value for supporting this site.
Just bear in mind the following when making your suggestions:
Originally posted by tbcz
This site is its members. The guiding principle on policies and organization must be "what will benefit our members the most?"
This site is its members. The guiding principle on policies and organization must be "what will benefit our members the most?"
One more thing that I am aware about advertising:
Newspapers, phone books and websites has historically speaking, charged by space. A small box would be worth $x. A 1/8 page would be worth $y. A 1/4 page, 1/2 page or a full page would be worth $a, $b or $c.
The dedicated vendor page with all vendors could be linked to multiple pages where a vendor buys space on one of those multiple pages.
Still open to other suggestions.
Newspapers, phone books and websites has historically speaking, charged by space. A small box would be worth $x. A 1/8 page would be worth $y. A 1/4 page, 1/2 page or a full page would be worth $a, $b or $c.
The dedicated vendor page with all vendors could be linked to multiple pages where a vendor buys space on one of those multiple pages.
Still open to other suggestions.
Z Flier
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: VA - USA
I think the simple fact that nearly no one could name the 'sponsers' today.. I think that shows the current system is flawed for them as well!
I mean.. traditional methods are obviously not applicable here.. the only banner in existance is CrystalGuard
I think all 'site' activity should revolve around the paid sponsers.. but member activity belongs in the forums.
Advertising is about exposure.. so make it so people are exposed to this 'marketplace'.
I still think the marketplace is the best model.. with discussion forms integrated into the marketplace.. re-enforced with banner support.. and postings of 'changes' in the forums.
Of course.. non-sponsered material would be limited to just forum traffic.
I think one of the flaws of my350z is its 100% forums.. there is no other content that is easily used or draws attention.
I mean.. traditional methods are obviously not applicable here.. the only banner in existance is CrystalGuard
I think all 'site' activity should revolve around the paid sponsers.. but member activity belongs in the forums.
Advertising is about exposure.. so make it so people are exposed to this 'marketplace'.
I still think the marketplace is the best model.. with discussion forms integrated into the marketplace.. re-enforced with banner support.. and postings of 'changes' in the forums.
Of course.. non-sponsered material would be limited to just forum traffic.
I think one of the flaws of my350z is its 100% forums.. there is no other content that is easily used or draws attention.
Some suggestions:
1. How about setting up a per group-buy fee structure for group buy for non-supporting vendors. It could be added to the price of the group buy. I have no idea what would be a reasonable amount, and how it should be charged, i.e. lump sum of percent. I see a problem with this since the vendor is already "paying" by offering the discounted prices, but if the fee is low the overall price should be good.
3.Set a limit on the amount of group buys a non-supporting vendor can do in a given time period before they have to become a supporting vendor.
2.What about setting up a dedicated group buy section on the forum.
Group-buy vendors' exposure is limited to the time of the group buy, which reduces the value of their advertising in comparison to supporting vendors
1. How about setting up a per group-buy fee structure for group buy for non-supporting vendors. It could be added to the price of the group buy. I have no idea what would be a reasonable amount, and how it should be charged, i.e. lump sum of percent. I see a problem with this since the vendor is already "paying" by offering the discounted prices, but if the fee is low the overall price should be good.
3.Set a limit on the amount of group buys a non-supporting vendor can do in a given time period before they have to become a supporting vendor.
2.What about setting up a dedicated group buy section on the forum.
Group-buy vendors' exposure is limited to the time of the group buy, which reduces the value of their advertising in comparison to supporting vendors
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
You know what's dumb?
THIS FORUM HAS A "SHOP" section but it's not being used? Why don't we put all the sponsors stuff in there. That's an obvious place to put a sponsors marketplace w/ exclusive advertisement etc.
Urm?
THIS FORUM HAS A "SHOP" section but it's not being used? Why don't we put all the sponsors stuff in there. That's an obvious place to put a sponsors marketplace w/ exclusive advertisement etc.
Urm?
that is certainly on the table, we have plenty of ideas, and something will be done and we can assure you all that whatever is decided will be in the best interest of us all (cause hey, we have Zs too, and we want the best prices as well)
just have to figure out whats reasonably possible and whats not. within the constraints that we have.
just have to figure out whats reasonably possible and whats not. within the constraints that we have.