Are stock rods suitable for FI VQ engines?
Great thread. I am not running FI, but do track my car and recently noticed a loss of 2 quarts after 3500 miles and three track days. Could there be any relation to this issue? I have no leaks, just blacker than usual exhaust tips. Would the frequent and long turns warrant a new oil pan in my case? I am 1) having Nissan look at my vehicle for an oil consumption test and 2) submitting a sample to Blackstone for independent analysis. Anyone think this could be of relation to this thread?
-Steve
Funny how I go from forum to forum just to make sure I don't miss anything
-Steve
Funny how I go from forum to forum just to make sure I don't miss anything
Hmm...if people havent noticed increased oil temps under heavy abuse, then their idea of heavy abuse is a lot less then mine.
Run cruising at a solid 165-170mph for 10+ min and tell me you dont see increase oil temps. I know that is an exagerated situation, but I have done it and my oil temp was near 300 degrees... perhaps that instance alone is what caused those wear marks on my bearings.
Run cruising at a solid 165-170mph for 10+ min and tell me you dont see increase oil temps. I know that is an exagerated situation, but I have done it and my oil temp was near 300 degrees... perhaps that instance alone is what caused those wear marks on my bearings.
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Could there be a problem of increased torque amplifying torsional vibrations and therefore hurting the bearings? The damping provided by the stock pulley may be insufficient. Also, I imagine engine balance might be an issue (and can only be solved with a rebuild).
Here's a crankshaft vibration damping alternative (don't know if the race series pulley can be used for a daily driver):
http://www.fluidampr.com/sport_compact.htm
--
Jeff
Here's a crankshaft vibration damping alternative (don't know if the race series pulley can be used for a daily driver):
http://www.fluidampr.com/sport_compact.htm
--
Jeff
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Good find jeffw. I've always wondered if lighter flywheel/clutch and UR crank pulleys could change an engine's balance enough to cause problems in the long term. I would guess everybody with a blown FI motor had to at least be running a lighter flywheel/clutch just to have a clutch that could handle the HP.
Not sure if any of these thoughts are accurate, though...
Not sure if any of these thoughts are accurate, though...
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Originally posted by kosmic
Good find jeffw. I've always wondered if lighter flywheel/clutch and UR crank pulleys could change an engine's balance enough to cause problems in the long term. I would guess everybody with a blown FI motor had to at least be running a lighter flywheel/clutch just to have a clutch that could handle the HP.
Not sure if any of these thoughts are accurate, though...
Good find jeffw. I've always wondered if lighter flywheel/clutch and UR crank pulleys could change an engine's balance enough to cause problems in the long term. I would guess everybody with a blown FI motor had to at least be running a lighter flywheel/clutch just to have a clutch that could handle the HP.
Not sure if any of these thoughts are accurate, though...
Thing is I imagine the main end bearing would be most affected by vibration issues. Or at least wear would be present on both end bearings and rod bearings. So this might not explain rod bearing wear.
Fluidampr claims their design works equally well with all harmonic frequencies.
NOTE: I have found the occasional complaint in domestic car newsgroups about fluidampr failures with leaking silicone.
--
Jeff
Originally posted by gq_626
This is a great discussion...couple additional things to keep in mind.
I drove my car hard for 14000 FI miles and my bearings were in virtually new condition. Second, if you look at most of the engine failures, they were NOT a result of high RPM operation, or even sustained boosted operation. People were snapping rods at 3500rpm just cruising around on the street. Going Deep's engine let go when he was just cruising along under normal loads.
Some time ago, Cheston went from a stock oil pan to aftermarket PE oilpan, and noticed a slighly drop in oil temps..roughly 10-15 degrees IIRC. And many of us have do repeated pulls on the freeway with oil temp gauges and dont notice a significant increase in oil temp.
Although oil starvation may have something to do with it, I am not conviced is is the sole cause of the failures. Almost always, a spun bearing is the result of sustained high g loads (such as on a road course), or excessive high RPM operation, or other oil starvation issues.
I am still leaning towards catastrophic timing (CAS shielded wire issue), and poor tuning as the main culprits. The stock rods, high compression, and high boost, are all very tough on the engine.
At the end of the day, there are several possible causes of engine failure, but its nearly impossible to nail down just one as the CAUSE of the failure.
This is a great discussion...couple additional things to keep in mind.
I drove my car hard for 14000 FI miles and my bearings were in virtually new condition. Second, if you look at most of the engine failures, they were NOT a result of high RPM operation, or even sustained boosted operation. People were snapping rods at 3500rpm just cruising around on the street. Going Deep's engine let go when he was just cruising along under normal loads.
Some time ago, Cheston went from a stock oil pan to aftermarket PE oilpan, and noticed a slighly drop in oil temps..roughly 10-15 degrees IIRC. And many of us have do repeated pulls on the freeway with oil temp gauges and dont notice a significant increase in oil temp.
Although oil starvation may have something to do with it, I am not conviced is is the sole cause of the failures. Almost always, a spun bearing is the result of sustained high g loads (such as on a road course), or excessive high RPM operation, or other oil starvation issues.
I am still leaning towards catastrophic timing (CAS shielded wire issue), and poor tuning as the main culprits. The stock rods, high compression, and high boost, are all very tough on the engine.
At the end of the day, there are several possible causes of engine failure, but its nearly impossible to nail down just one as the CAUSE of the failure.
The way I look at it, our stock engine's reliability/efficiency is balanced against 5 systems (air, fuel, oil, cooling, ignition). For a given state of efficiency, if you increase the demands for the first two systems (air/fuel), the other subsequent systems needs to be improved to be able to compensate. If the oil, cooling, ignition systems are not addressed as air/fuel demands rise, it would stand to reason that reliability/efficiency would suffer. So, both gq and Peter could be right!
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How is Zero2Prove / Tuan coming with his stock internal 500rwhp APS TT car? I'd be very interested to see the results of him abusing that set up since he's planning to build up the motor later anyway. 500rwhp APS TT on stock internals is pretty extreme, so if he can flog his motor for a few thousand miles and not damage anything, that would be pretty sweet.
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His car is the perfect example. He has the APS oil pan, and the kit has the shielded wires, and apparently he can tune fairly well. 
So if his motor lasts a long time under extreme stress, this will start to show us what is really wrong with the VQ35DE.
So if his motor lasts a long time under extreme stress, this will start to show us what is really wrong with the VQ35DE.
I hope he waits a while to put in his built engine... I live in Chicago as well and I can speak from experience that even if you wanted to beat on a APS TT 350z right now, you really cant get anywhere... the salted roads are causing tire spin in 4th gear in a TT 350z I been driving and all tracks are closed. Conditions wont be severely improved for at least 8 weeks.
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I'm curious to see how mine will be doing as well. I drag race and beat on my car. But I don't abuse it persay. I know what it can take and I'm intersted to see how she lasts. My car was tuned by Zcargarage and they are very good.
Cooling this is why I addressed the cooling issue hope my gut feelings were correct and mine lasts a while to give others hope
Cooling this is why I addressed the cooling issue hope my gut feelings were correct and mine lasts a while to give others hope
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barthelb, thanks for being one of the brave pioneers! I've been thinking since reading through this thread that if Peter's theory is correct, 440rwhp with stock internals on an APS TT kit should be pretty safe. (Plus if oil temp is part of the issue, you have the cooler for added protection)
How many miles have you put on the car since you got the TT kit? What PSI are you at?
Also, what exactly is entailed in tuning these kits with the (is it a unichip?) piggyback? Can you tweak the piggyback directly with a laptop hooked up to it?
How many miles have you put on the car since you got the TT kit? What PSI are you at?
Also, what exactly is entailed in tuning these kits with the (is it a unichip?) piggyback? Can you tweak the piggyback directly with a laptop hooked up to it?
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440rwhp with stock internals on an APS TT kit should be pretty safe. (Plus if oil temp is part of the issue, you have the cooler for added protection) Yes, worse case i have cool running oil which makes since anyway. For a layman like myself I figured a hot running engine lets address that. Cooler oil and better radiator!
How many miles have you put on the car since you got the TT kit? What PSI are you at? 2200 miles, boosting 8.5psi
Also, what exactly is entailed in tuning these kits with the (is it a unichip?) piggyback? Can you tweak the piggyback directly with a laptop hooked up to it? [/B][/QUOTE] Yes that's how mine was tuned.
How many miles have you put on the car since you got the TT kit? What PSI are you at? 2200 miles, boosting 8.5psi
Also, what exactly is entailed in tuning these kits with the (is it a unichip?) piggyback? Can you tweak the piggyback directly with a laptop hooked up to it? [/B][/QUOTE] Yes that's how mine was tuned.
Originally posted by kosmic
440rwhp with stock internals on an APS TT kit should be pretty safe. (Plus if oil temp is part of the issue, you have the cooler for added protection)
440rwhp with stock internals on an APS TT kit should be pretty safe. (Plus if oil temp is part of the issue, you have the cooler for added protection)
SAFE??!?!?!?!?!
a stock 350z puts out 230rwhp or so staright from the factory (varying depending on altitude, of course)
do you expect a 210 rwhp jump on stock internals is going to be "safe" for any extended length of time? i'm happy for evryone that has been running crazy HP numbers on stock motors and haven't blown up yet, but the key word is yet! even the APS kit, i acknowledge the superiority over other out of the box kits...but it's not magical...
my advise, don't push it...stay below 400rwhp...take the additional precautions (upgrade fuel system even further)..and plan on a rebuild w/in a year at the most!
because it sucks to be driving along in 2nd gear, loving life, everything is great...then BOOM...loss of power, coolant poors out, try starting the motor is hopes it will actually come back to life...then accept that it is not coming back to life for at least 2 months (if prepared)...or longer if not!!! it sucks, and it's not worth it when it happens to you!
boohoo
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Todd, but, if it is an oil problem, which the APS oil pan addresses, that is safe. If it's the shielded angle sensor wire, that is safe. If it's the tune, well, that depends on who tunes it. If it actually turns out to be the rod weakness (which I doubt it is), then it is not safe.
Disclaimer: Nothing about Forced Induction is safe, only safe to a certain extent.
Disclaimer: Nothing about Forced Induction is safe, only safe to a certain extent.
Originally posted by nis350ztt
Todd, but, if it is an oil problem, which the APS oil pan addresses, that is safe. If it's the shielded angle sensor wire, that is safe. If it's the tune, well, that depends on who tunes it. If it actually turns out to be the rod weakness (which I doubt it is), then it is not safe.
Disclaimer: Nothing about Forced Induction is safe, only safe to a certain extent.
Todd, but, if it is an oil problem, which the APS oil pan addresses, that is safe. If it's the shielded angle sensor wire, that is safe. If it's the tune, well, that depends on who tunes it. If it actually turns out to be the rod weakness (which I doubt it is), then it is not safe.
Disclaimer: Nothing about Forced Induction is safe, only safe to a certain extent.
maybe they are just that good, or maybe they like to promote their kits and try to calm down any of those who may be leary to go FI after all of the engien failures (i know there are no reported aps tt 350z failures as of YET)
first...crank angle sensor prob---they have it covered...
now, the new oil THEORY (capitalized because no one knows for sure)..well, hmmm, ain't that special, they already had the huge-a$$ oil pain that has that base covered as well..
next, the problem will somehow be resolved with the fact that theit turbos are watercooled, or the verticle nature of the intercooler..no, wait...the APS letters on the setup actually produce a cooling effect on the motor, and that will prevent the motor from blowing up
not trying to be negative, but i'm not convinced!
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I'd just like to point out that the full statement I made was:
"I've been thinking since reading through this thread that if Peter's theory is correct, 440rwhp with stock internals on an APS TT kit should be pretty safe."
(Bold added for emphasis)
If I do go the FI route, I'll have my truck and my wife's car as back up vehicles in case the worst happens. BUT given that there are at least a few (not sure how many) APS TT kits on the road with stock internals, it's a good sign.
I'm not saying "They've found the holy grail" but the theory makes sense and is fairly well supported by the experiences of others so far. Only time will tell...
"I've been thinking since reading through this thread that if Peter's theory is correct, 440rwhp with stock internals on an APS TT kit should be pretty safe."
(Bold added for emphasis)
If I do go the FI route, I'll have my truck and my wife's car as back up vehicles in case the worst happens. BUT given that there are at least a few (not sure how many) APS TT kits on the road with stock internals, it's a good sign.
I'm not saying "They've found the holy grail" but the theory makes sense and is fairly well supported by the experiences of others so far. Only time will tell...
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From: Valdosta, GA
Originally posted by 350zDCalb
nothing against aps, but it seems coincidental that as more time passes, every new "discovery" is addressed by APS
maybe they are just that good, or maybe they like to promote their kits and try to calm down any of those who may be leary to go FI after all of the engien failures (i know there are no reported aps tt 350z failures as of YET)
first...crank angle sensor prob---they have it covered...
now, the new oil THEORY (capitalized because no one knows for sure)..well, hmmm, ain't that special, they already had the huge-a$$ oil pain that has that base covered as well..
next, the problem will somehow be resolved with the fact that theit turbos are watercooled, or the verticle nature of the intercooler..no, wait...the APS letters on the setup actually produce a cooling effect on the motor, and that will prevent the motor from blowing up
not trying to be negative, but i'm not convinced!
nothing against aps, but it seems coincidental that as more time passes, every new "discovery" is addressed by APS
maybe they are just that good, or maybe they like to promote their kits and try to calm down any of those who may be leary to go FI after all of the engien failures (i know there are no reported aps tt 350z failures as of YET)
first...crank angle sensor prob---they have it covered...
now, the new oil THEORY (capitalized because no one knows for sure)..well, hmmm, ain't that special, they already had the huge-a$$ oil pain that has that base covered as well..
next, the problem will somehow be resolved with the fact that theit turbos are watercooled, or the verticle nature of the intercooler..no, wait...the APS letters on the setup actually produce a cooling effect on the motor, and that will prevent the motor from blowing up
not trying to be negative, but i'm not convinced!
Heh, I know what you mean, it does seem like Peter repeats the same thing over and over.
They obviously care about the 350Z crowd unlike other companies such as Power Enterprise, SSR/SFR, GReddy, etc. who just put out a kit and seemed like they just quit tinkering with it.
To me, APS is in the 350Z business to make complete kits with quality products for 350Zs that will see 70% of it's life on the street and is actually interested in seeing what the VQ35DE is capable of.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. I know he tries to pitch their products in a lot of threads but what else would you expect? Obviously he isn't doing it enough because there are quite a few APS threads over the same stuff.
